We need alternative options to stats clamping...

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by STsource, Jan 22, 2022.

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  1. Plowed In Dedicated Player

    The old counter feats are definitely a slog. People could be taking a page from the LPVE week and say “How about we do a 10x old counter bonus week” or incorporate old feats into the next round of Save the Universe content. Ya know, like actually proposing solutions rather than proposing to undo the system.
    • Like x 2
  2. Max Maximus Well-Known Player

    I don't understand why no one comments on this option. Could have a new mark to attract players who already have the feats of old content.
    • Like x 2
  3. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    You basically said "Have STU be a full-time option", which I'm in favor of, personally, but here nor there.
    • Like x 2
  4. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Well that whole 'one shot bosses' is a bit over played. Yeah, Sub-Avatars in South Gotham...sure. But I don't recall ever blinking on Courm Rath and having him gone when I re-opened my eyes and as many times as I've carried the boxes in MoM, I don't remember ever having the mission end before I carried a few of them. I mean I've tried closing my eyes on Barbatos in DM (cause he's scary), but every time I open them...he was still there.

    I'll give you an example to demonstrate what I'm referring to. Nexus's 'Artifact finder' feat is like 12 or 13 random items. That means it will take 12 or 13 runs minimum...maybe 20, could be 50 if you are unlucky in your draw. Does this feat take 'skill'? I'd say no...maybe you say yes. Either way, that feat previous to the clamp meant finding a buddy, and walking in 12, 13, 20 or 50x for a 6 or 7 min run each time. Post clamp that means finding 7 other people to queue up, and a 15-30 min run each time over 12, 13 or 50x. The only difference is not 'skill' it's time. Yes, I suppose you could walk in with a buddy still, but it won't be 20 min, or 30...probably closer to an hour. Granted, you can skip last boss as soon as you see the arti isn't the right one, but even then you are talking another 5-10 min for the instance to 'timeout' and reset.

    People who were there when the content was new got the feat likely without any extra effort. They were running the content. People who caught up later had the 2 man walk in option, or even built an 8 man group to queue in for 'quick' runs....how were they not earning it vs how we got it originally? What, because they didn't spend 50+ hours to work on it? If so, like Proxy, your main objection is that people can earn those feats faster than you or I did (which for my main account is not true, because I got it for 0 time investment OVER what I would have ran anyway). Because if you are saying THAT feat (or feats like it) takes some sort of special 'skill' or being 'gud'....well, you and I have differing definitions of 'skill'.

    Going back to something I said earlier, one solution (assuming they were going to add a 'unclamp' option....they won't) would be to treat some feats like 'event' today. Toons running 'event' runs (since they were introduced) were/are able to earn counts for most if not all bounties, most 'grind' count feats, some checklist and basic 'skill' feats. Leave those attainable in the unclamped runs, and the rest treat as they do the 'normal or elite' feats where you can't run unclamped or 'event'. That would keep the queues popping for Omni or LFG, still provide a challenge where it's due (actual 'skill' feats) and provide a reasonably faster path for feats that are 100% grind or RNG. Unclamped of course would carry no marks or usable gear and apply loot lock. BTW....AQS at the same time would make it just about perfect as then the big bad ogres can run by themselves and leave the people who don't want to run with them, even unclamped, out of it.

    Not saying that would happen, but IF some sort of option were put in, the only objection to it should be that people are jealous of the time spend....not skill use.
    • Like x 3
  5. catplaysxoxo Dedicated Player

    That would be me, I also started on other platforms such as the Switch. I didn’t cry about it though if I really want those feats I’ll put the effort in getting them and no whining will accomplish that except action.
    I believe they lowered the counts in legends pve and I still did not care to do them lol pugging is even worse in legends pve and I can’t really battle tank since it’s with legends characters. The fact that it takes longer to do those maps like bludhaven as opposed to your own character means it’s a nuisance but hopefully one day I can finish all those feats with a LEAGUE. Lol
    • Like x 1
  6. xxHELLSTROKExx Loyal Player

    I asked about the upscale all content and was shot down. Think it was Mepps iirc. A dev responded saying that it’s a lot more complicated to upscale vs clamp and they sort of serve the same purpose
    • Like x 1
  7. Dry Cleaning Well-Known Player

    lol well when u say omg i can't be around someone because of how they play that sounds like a bothered snowflake imo lmao
    • Like x 1
  8. Proxystar #Perception

    So we take the clamp away so little Pete who joins a 10 year old game doesn't want to spend the time on it but instead wants to boost everything so they don't have to feel bad about themselves

    It's interesting you raise the new player argument though because, I think it's a smoke screen.

    A new player especially now, doesn't know the history, stat clamped content is all they know, they're not the players hankering for the clamp removal because the clamp is just their status quo.

    The players wanting it removed are older players who want the 'ease' back they feel they've lost.

    Since you didn't get real rewards from previously unclamped content it's clearly not about source marks, it's clearly about the 'easy path to feats'

    The moment you suggest optional umclamped content with zero rewards or feats they cry 'no, no, no' , "we wants feats", which is why the true agenda is so abundantly obvious.

    If it were truly about fun it wouldn't matter getting no reward.

    You also seem to be hung up on this idea that somehow content takes longer in EEG, that simply isn't true, content starts off hardest when new and is easiest in EEG, unless you're suggesting it's queue times resulting from less activity, hence your reference to grindy counter feats.

    You don't remove the clamp to fix that though, you find a way to motivate certain instances, increase mark yields on certain content, provide new rewards spread in content like those pets.

    Also counter feats generally tend to happen on their own so queue the content it'll pop eventually, new player or old player, none of these feats happen overnight, they all require time input.
    • Like x 2
  9. Catastroflare Well-Known Player

    This tread has gone way off track and with a lot of unchecked speculation from the pro-clamp players.

    I don't speak for anyone but myself but it doesn't take much for any neutral party to see that more in this thread agree with me than don't.

    Like I've mentioned before, having an optional stat clamp isn't about easier access to marks, loot, or even feats. It's again about the amount of time it takes to do the older, out-dated content that no one does for a myriad of different reasons not too. And on top of that, there just isn't enough incentive to as source marks don't seem to move the needle for the broader player base to do so, aside from FOS3 (which furthers my point).

    If it came down to it and there was an optional clamp and everything was removed, except investigations/briefings and collections, I would absolutely be 100% ok with that to make all the whining pseudo-elitists happy.

    Contrary to what many posters have written, it's not an issue of making feats easier or unearned SPs or skill level/"getting good"; it's always been about efficient use of time and overall accessibility to older content that's been a challenge to do as the devs intended.

    Let me run my character regardless of what my CR is or how I want to experience content without having to waste my time to do so.
    Why would this be an issue for pro-clamp players? Why does similarly proposed approaches to playing the game trigger you so? And finally, how is more options for the general player base more harmful than not?

    One last thing, for those hung up on using the stat clamp to teach or educate new players about game mechanics -that's nothing but rubbish. Nothing in this game will teach or motivate a player unless the player is willing to learn. And at this point in DCUO's life, I highly doubt that's high on a lot of new players' priority list. They just want to get through the early stuff as soon as possible, get to max CR/endgame, and feel powerful and at the very least they'll do that by putting in the time and effort. But plenty will just use/pay for a CR skip which I will again point out teaches nothing to the new players either. And if you're naïve enough to believe that new player -> CR skip -> THEN learn role, mechanics, all of that via stat clamp, then that line of thinking is even more oblivious than I originally thought.
  10. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    It's actually amazing that you can understand everything I'm saying while at the same time understand nothing of what I'm saying. Yes, the grind/RNG/Checklist feats are mainly what I'm talking about and no 'lil pete won't know there was an option before. Do you think it will make those 250 bottle duos more or less attractive? Do you think it will make more people lobby for the selling of feats (which, mark my words...will be the final outcome) more or less when facing a LOT more time vs the relatively quick runs you could do before the clamp?

    And yes, in some stuff, the EEG might be easier. COP/FGS for a group of 330s the day before the clamp is likely easier the next day when 330 is the 'max' in there and the bosses were adjusted. Of course this assumes a 'made' group, not Omni and I'd debate it would be even easier with a group of 342s, but can't really test that anymore. I know the solo takes slightly longer than it did the day before the clamp when I was max STU Elite gear, but not a huge amount, like 20 seconds, but of course....that's a solo.

    I can say that Paradox takes longer, Gates takes longer, HH takes longer, FOS3 takes longer, Bombshell takes longer...well a whole bunch of them at any rate, than pre clamp. I mean if in those runs you could 'one shot the bosses' (as is said so often) they had to be faster than today, right? Even with a made group. So for 'lil pete, no he won't know any better, but he'll know enough to know SOME things will probably never get done in the course of normal running.

    And yeah, like most clampers, the only thing that you acknowledge makes running the content more viable is jamming more stuff into it. More marks, more pets, more crap....tie feats to it to 'force' the completionists to run it and make it rare enough that spamming is required for any decent shot at a drop. Yep....quality content < shineys ..... every time. Best way to 'fix' an issue that was created by the last 'fix' is apparently....bribery. Hey, it works for dogs and kids....why not DCUO players?
    • Like x 2
  11. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    if it were clearly about time as the main antagonist keeps saying as above then a much easier resolution is there.. Just dont run the older content! if they are ok with getting nothing from it but we all know the real reason is feats.
    they simply call anyone who doesn't agree with them elitist or say your attacking as if that proves their point and gives them some high moral ground. SMH
    nothing we say will help these players see reason we are wasting our time out side of showing a dissenting opinion to the dev's to ignore or favor them to our benefit or detriment
    • Like x 1
  12. Plowed In Dedicated Player

    Because creating duplicate instances for 10+ years of content would really need to be justified. It’s more about whether it’s an effective use of time and resources. I’d say no.
    • Like x 1
  13. Catastroflare Well-Known Player

    Reading your posts hurts my eyes for many different reasons. And, seriously, how much more simply can I write out my point and yet you still seem to miss it? Mind-boggling.

    I don't run the older, out-dated content at the moment, as many others have commented in this thread and similar ones. And is that really what the devs envisioned for stat clamped content? I'm guessing not.

    If you feel like you're wasting your time in these threads, then don't post. Move along and take your wannabe-elitist attitude with you.

    People who play this game don't have to/want to do it your way. If you have a problem with that, then that's a you problem, no one else's.

    Nothing is being duplicated. It's the same content but with locks and unclamped. Not as hard as people make it out to be.
    • Like x 1
  14. Irvynnge Dedicated Player

    they will never acquiesce to the idea of an option to run unclamped. they can't. because they know that if that option was in place, no one would run the clamped stuff. & that would mean that they are wrong. their whole argument is built upon forcing others to do stuff. there can be no options. to allow options would be to admit that their entire argument is false & elitist.

    for my own part, I'm not having anything to do with older content. nothing. I got stuff to do in endgame. & I still enjoy ( ish ) playing the game. but I'm absolutely not playing anywhere near what I used to.
    • Like x 3
  15. STsource Active Player

    I didn't expect thread to grow this much or go toxic and off topic.

    It was pretty simple - i would like dev's to consider these options or other's that fall inline with main topic of the thread. Instead, I got told to get good and deal with current situation.

    If your not happy with the topic don't reply and let the post just fall away into oblivion.

    Oh, I have 500sp and pretty much comfortable with most aspects of the game.
    • Like x 3
  16. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    you seem to think any of this is up to us the Dev's have wanted to add stat clamping for Years they changed the game not us players
  17. Catastroflare Well-Known Player

    Well, we'll get a lock soon I'd wager as these types of threads to get to this point when they do.

    As much as the devs would hate to admit it, the stat clamp isn't working as intended and it alienates a big chunk of the player base. The common ground approach would be an optional clamp with very limited rewards but believe the option to run unclamped will be incentive enough. At least, I'd think so.
    • Like x 5
  18. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    OP - supporting clamp - got 8 likes. The very next post, which said - and I quote -
    Got 21.

    "Maybe you're not actually representing the majority of opinions everywhere, if the people who agree with you are not even the majority here" would be my takeaway, based on that observation alone.

    My personal observation - which is 100% anecdotal and representative purely of my own player experience - is that Omnibus pretty much always has something happening in it, regardless of the fact that it's older content and the fact that it's clamped.

    And since we can steer queues in Omni content just by queueing for something, it makes it pretty easy to fill a specific bus as well as a random one.

    Since I'm not waiting for two hours for a Raid to queue? I'm okay with the extra four minutes it takes to complete - and that's why I don't mind the clamp.
    • Like x 3
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    My experience was that the wonderverse solo was demonstrably easier and quicker the day it went to EEG, if that wasn't the case for you, then I don't know what to say.

    As for your comparison of other instances like Paradox and others, of course they're longer now, but you're using the wrong reference point

    You're saying it's longer than when unclamped, of course it is because you've no longer got an op player in there one shotting everything.

    However and this is important, paradox is still, way, way way quicker clamped than it was the day it was released and that's the reference you should be using.

    Funnily enough, dox actually has a speed feat of 15 minutes, so even new, it could eventually be done in 15 minutes, how quick do you think a decent group of players would take to complete clamped dox? I'd suggest 5 minutes... but we're saying that's too time consuming and difficult?

    It isn't that I don't understand what you're saying Reinheld, it's that I just simply don't agree with, we're never going to reach agreement because it would seem you just want the game easier than I do, I'm not saying you're not entitled to hold that view, you absolutely can, I'm just not going to agree :)

    I think at the level you're suggesting the game would just be appealing to much too the casual and in the same way you can't appeal too much to hardcore players though also cannot appeal too much to casuals.

    I think the clamp as it currently exists is an appropriate balance, as I always say too if there's a real outlier, I'm open to testing it and discussing it :)
    • Like x 2
  20. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Technically they didn't lower the counts, they increased the counters. Same results, but it depends on you running during the special 10x weeks to make the difference. And yes....those runs are very slow, especially the bad maps, but if EVERY run counts for a team up or checklist (each run has a few) it's doable. Painful, but doable....and only worth working on during 10x weeks....which is why it's dead as a doornail most other times. Find a partner and figure out what teamups also finish checklists, pick toons you don't own the legends on too as those are all available that week.

    Hey, if they added a 10x 'grind' counter on all old grind feats, it would probably also make this discussion go away. 25 bottle duos and only have to pick up 25 bombs/civillians/pods along the way? Yes please. Picking up 13 bots in Return to Nexus beats the hell out of 127 and doing 10 rotations in WV is a lot better than 100. If all that were left were the actual 'skill' based feats I'd bow out of the discussion at least. RNG is still RNG, but the counts would resolve themselves with a 10x multiplier. IF they were to do that though.....get ready for the sparks to fly again, cause you know....'not earning' those things.
    • Like x 4
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