Discussion in 'Joker’s Funhouse (Off Topic)' started by MsTickle Fate, Apr 15, 2022.
Warner Bros. Discovery Exploring Overhaul of DC Entertainment
I've read through this a couple of times. I think it's good news for DC comics fans, but some bad news for Sndyerverse fans. If they're looking to hire a helmsman who brings a business sense, but no creative sense, the underperformance of the Snyder movies doesn't bode well.
Can you provide metrics....links....quantifiable proof.....that Zach Snyder's movies - especially his Justice League movie - has underperformed?
Compared to the "Solo" movies? Sure....some of the "Solo" movies have performed well.
But looking ahead 10-20 years from now....I think Comic Book critics will wonder what in the world was DC / WB doing while Marvel / Disney movies were blowing it out of the park?
And don't blame Zach Snyder for that....even YOU, QE - and I have discussed that there was more going on that just "Snyder movies underperforming".....
And what do DC Comics fans want? A "Marvelized" DC Cinematic experience?
DC characters are NOT Marvel characters.
I mean - in the numerous Snyderverse threads here no one can seemingly come to any agreement on what they want out of our movies. And the reasons some folks give - make me think that they want to go see a Marvel movie.
I would be willing to trash everything, even the next Matt Reeves batman sequel, if we could just start the whole thing over again.
Additionally - after reading your comment a second time - you make it seem as if Snyderverse fans are not DC Comics fans....this is a bit confusing and a reach......
Is that your intent, QE?
But how would that look? Who would be the characters? Heroes? Villains?
Who would write? Direct?
As a filmgoer, I want to watch a good movie. As a DC comics fan, I want to watch a good super hero movie that gets what the subject of the film is all about. It doesn't have to be a one-to-one exact copy from other media, but getting the essence of the character right is vitally important.
As for DC characters versus Marvel, for the longest time the Marvel characters were considered better because they had more nuance and seemed more grounded than their DC counterparts. I wouldn't be surprised if part of that perception was due to the various Super Friends cartoons running for the better part of two decades, and nuance was NOT a huge part of Super Friends storytelling. LOL DC's done a lot better over the years in developing their characters more, but for a long time they just seemed rather hokey compared to Marvel's offerings.
But at the end of the day, the characters of both companies are used in telling stories where people solve the differences they have with one another by beating the living snot out of each other while wearing really unusual outfits. That's not to say you can't tell good stories with those characters, but the inherent silliness of the whole thing does need to be kept in mind.
0.o management from DC, a fan with a great team to get resources or a great fan knowing the lore? I'd expect DC property exec producers to have a expectation, and perhaps their willingness to want more, lends them to, Shirley, you should do it. A great fan with a great team? KevFi gets the cred, but ya gots to know there are teams. willingness to listen. willingness to enter their creative room and say, consider this! to add to that.
Zack had an arc. began with a sharp inclination towards a big villain to introduce the whole, we know the characters and here is the reason they are working together, League reason to be via intro a big bad. reason to form the League, so quickly. Character movies, spotlight interactions that add history and/or character, if it's not gonna slow go like M did. Had some hickups, then struck a starting point and a groove. Are they gonna cookie cutter, movieness connectivity? ....so many variables, let a director have a story, tell the story and have them meet up, with more than a CW show budget once in a while.
...or not. whatever. Is it as satisfying to have the license when the potential seems to not have been met (via box office sales, no more specific category needs to be added.... Time Burton's Batman; inflation; maybe the numbers.... I watched the Batman in a theater. lookiong forward to seeing it again on HBO maz monday? or is it a marketing move, see the first scene monday, full movie tuesday? how is that not gonna make people irritated marketing that way? Marketing, your days are numbered. Your entire department was replaced by a person doing social media. Welcome to the rest of us that expect automation to remove the need for us. i digress....)
I'll say this, though....
"IF" they do a TOTAL REBOOT I'll be disappointed in WB / DC Media....to the point of that I'll look at the organization as incompetent and money-grabbers than anything else.
There is no need for a total reboot, IMO.
BUT - As LIFE goes we need to be ready for the unexpected. I've taken THAT into consideration as well.
"IF" they totally reboot then NO Black Adam movie....no Shazam 2.....no WW3......and GOD NO PLEASE no "Black Superman Ta-Nahesi Coates Superman" movie just CLEAN the ENTIRE slate.
Go with a Young Justice-type universe....that is perhaps the most inclusive story arc for Comics that I've EVER seen - outside of Justice League Unlimited.....SO MANY Heroes and Villains in that universe.....so inclusive....of Old AND YOUNG Heroes and Villains.
You see - Young Justice ALSO included my favorite DC Superheroes in Icon and Rocket....as well as Hardware and Static
No need for a Tokenized Black Superman when you have AN ORIGINAL BLACK Superman in Augustus Freeman IV / Icon.
One who FOUGHT Superman to a TIE - in the classic Icon #16
And PLEASE - "IF" they bring Icon to the Big Screen stay TRUE to his Dwayne McDuffie roots.
No offense to the NEW writers of Icon and Rocket but TELL his TRUE story. If a being lands on Earth in 1839 (or 1843), assumes the DNA of the FIRST being who touches his escape pod
Becomes a HUMAN BEING - down to his DNA...but a Black Man through and through. The "Transformation" of his DNA from Myriam ALSO resulted in his cells becoming MAXIMIZED...to the point of giving him his superpowers. The escape pod he was in was FAR ADVANCED in technology.
He doesn't realize his powers until he gets a bit older.
This being is REPUBLICAN that has KRYPTONIAN ON EARTH Superpowers and lives among Humans....quotes people like Booker T Washington.....Frederick Douglass......experiences SLAVERY.......helps fellow slaves escape........befriends an idealistic and gifted teenager in Raquel Ervin / Rocket later on in his life that persuades him to help others once again and be an example........and eventually takes his place among OTHER super beings in Young Justice
He is in a newer uniform, between Plastic Man and Red Arrow. Green Arrow - on the opposite end - famously confronted Superman during the League Vote for Icon because he thought that the ONLY reason Superman wanted Icon in the league was because he assumed he was Kryptonian.......
TELL Icon's TRUE story......read the ORIGINAL series 1 - 42 and cap it off with the NEWER re-writes of Mr. Reginald Hudlin and Co. but PLEASE stay TRUE to his ROOTS....
He ROOTS are his true beauty.
Also - when Dwayne McDuffie wrote Icon and Rocket in the early 90s Icon being a Conservative was a LOT different THEN than being a Conservative / Republican NOWADAYS.....
There's NOTHING wrong with being a Black Republican. Just don't worship FALSE GODS................................................
I hope Hollywood isn't SCARED of Augustus Freeman IV / Icon. He would be quite the departure from how they've depicted Black Men on the Big Screen so far........................
The Black Person's Superhero Cinema Experience should extend FAR BEYOND Black Panther. Let's not rest our laurels on Black Panther ONLY.....
Again - if they TOTALLY reboot DC Cinema then DO IT RIGHT....
Justice League Unlimited was so good that it spawned its OWN comic series....it's OWN universe. Do the same with this "NEW" DC Cinematic Universe - "IF" they reboot the entire thing.
I'd love for them to keep Henry Cavill...Gal Gadot....Ezra Miller....and PLEASE get Ezra the help he NEEDS..."IF" he wants it.
Society is Oftentimes TOO QUICK to "CANCEL" people......................
Keep Ray Fisher....Jason Momoa.....Wayne T Carr....Harry Lennix as Martian Manhunter....keep Ben Affleck.
These actors / actresses were AWESOME. "WHO ELSE" could they POSSIBLY bring in at this juncture to replace THESE actors / actresses?
EXPAND upon these DC Cinematic characters....bring in MORE WOMEN....like Vixen, perhaps Jessica Cruz GL....Sojourner Mullien GL....Zatanna....Power Girl.......Nubia....Dr. Light....Fire and Ice.....
Keep Zach Snyder going forward. I truly believe he captures the ESSENCE of what the CORE Justice League characters ARE....
A Man God from Krypton....a superhuman Princess from a place with NO MEN....a Half-Human Half Atlantean super being that is the KING of Atlantis.....a mentally gifted young man who was a star athlete that is NOW merged with a super computer from Apoklips called a Mother Box.....an outcast of a human being who gains Super Speed through a freak accident......and a young boy who witnesses the cold-blooded murder of his parents that subsequently sends him on a life of vengeance and darkness......
Finally - a being that has perhaps been on Earth as long as Superman has...maybe longer - in Martian Manhunter....a shape-shifter that can assume the visage of ANY human but chooses to live as a Black Man...
I've said it BEFORE and will KEEP saying it....
And it's nothing wrong with that.
But if they reboot it then DO IT RIGHT.
Good. The universe is a mess right now and needs a proper cleanup. Although theres a lot of want for JL2, any realist can see its never happening. Theres a huge difference between funding a movies reshoots and SFX and gambling hundreds of millions on another film. Then theres the issue of the "Snyder Cut" not being canon yet characters from it continuing to have movies.
Start with the Flash sacrificing himself in the Flashpoint movie to reset the universe so that DC can get Ezra Miller out the door. The man-child has no idea how to conduct himself and you dont want kids looking up to him. Grant Gustin can take his spot and has earned it despite recent series storylines being bad. Tyler Hoechlin has more than proven himself as a fantastic Superman in just 1 and a half seasons and with how Warners has left Cavill out to dry, he likely wouldn't want a return. Pattinson gave us an exciting new Batman. Shazam, Black Adam and Blue Beetle have negligible connections to the Snyderverse so they could stay. WW and Aquaman are likely the biggest issue because although both actors are great, they're too connected to the Snyderverse. So either both need replacing or the Flashpoint Reset needs a really good excuse to keep them. HBO already has a Lantern Series coming out so Guy Gardner at least is sorted. Naomi has a series right now, though with the mid-score reviews its a question of whether to add her or focus on making the series better than it is.
Point is that DC already has the pieces there for a proper Justice League. The main challenge is not to rush it. News reports are stating DC is considering a "Crisis" movie so let everything catch up. Have each series and movie end with each character being summoned to fight this Crisis from their respective worlds. The JL exist in the same universe in comics but they dont necessarily need to in Movies / TV Series. Would certainly help explain why the JL dont just show up for each others "big-bad" each season/movie. Take a cue from JL Incarnate. Forget about awful ideas like New Characters and work on solidifying the core members.
If you're going to hire someone to "guide" this cinematic universe who is looking at financials and isn't interested in the creative, to see what will guide them, it's necessary to look at box office numbers, and production costs. So I picked the three DCEU films that had the most involvement from Snyder, Man of Steel, Batman V Superman, and Justice League. There are 23 films in the MCU, it wouldn't have been fair to pick their top 3, nor their bottom 3, so I picked just the middle 3 movies to compare, Far from home, Guardians of the galaxy 2 and Spider man homecoming.
Title Domestic box office global box office Production Budget
MOS $291 million $668 million $225 million
BVS $330 million $873 million $250 million
JL $229 million $657 million $300 million
Total 850 Million $2.2 billion $775 Million
FFH $390 million $1.1 billion $160 million
GOTG2 $389 million $869 Million $200 million
SM HC $334 Million $878 Million $175 million
Total 1.1 billion 2.8 Billion $435 million
Most of the dry stuff is out of the way. What's not included in this is the advertising budget, which is generally accepted to be the same as the production budget.
The three flagship DCEU movies had a showed a profit loss of 1.4 billion. The MCU movies 2.365 Billion. The DCEU showed a worse margin than the three middle MCEU movies. With the DCEU making a bit over twice their production budget back, but the MCU having almost 5 times the return.
If you're asking someone to invest in your widget company, and you show them the competition's sales numbers, and you're coming back with half the return there are going to be some questions about the direction and leadership.
Add to this that many of the DCEU movies without Snyder outperformed his movies, The first Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Suicide Squad (Gunn version) for example.
Now you can imagine, someone coming in and looking at the numbers, isn't going to be generous like me, he's going to compare JL to the Avengers endgame, and that comparison looks even worse for the DCEU.
I'm absolutely not saying saying. One can describe themselves as an animal lover, or a cat lover, the two are not mutually exclusive.
What these numbers don't take into account are the CONSTRAINTS that Zach Snyder worked under. CEOs can always look at the FINAL NUMBERS - even after they've ALREADY set up their underlings for failure:
THAT, to ME - is a HORRIBLE CEO.
Why did Zach have several scenes cut out of BvS? The ULTIMATE edition was MUCH BETTER......was this because he was forced to fall into a certain time frame for his movies?
Why was Zach Snyder's offering of Justice League WAAY better than Josstice League?
Why was MoS only allowed ONE MOVIE - for perhaps the most iconic character in ALL of comics Marvel or DC?
Why the TIME CONSTRAINTS on his movies? Where Marvel movies did not seem to have any?
Why was there no CYBORG movie? And no GREEN LANTERN movie? When there WAS two movies on the schedule at one time?
Was the OLD GUARD from WB / DC - thinking that Zach Snyder could poop out a FULL DCCU in only THREE MOVIES? If so that's idiotic and shows a lack of care and concern and - frankly - incompetence - about DC characters.
Why was Captain America essentially given THREE MOVIES to build his character (First Avenger, Winter Soldier, Civil War)....and along the way these SAME MOVIES help to introduce EVEN MORE MCU characters?
Why was IRON MAN given THREE MOVIES - and along the way, of course - introducing War Machine and several cameos from SHIELD and Nick Fury.....
Incredible Hulk given one...but THAT ONE introducing Tony Stark at the end of it. Tony and Bruce Banner would go on to build an on-screen relationship that rivals their COMIC BOOK origins.
Avengers given THREE MOVIES.
GoTG given two...with a third installment on the way....each one BUILDING UPON the GREATER MARVEL Cinematic Universe.
Thor given THREE....introducing SHIELD in the first one, with a Hawkeye Cameo as well.
What would've happened if the FORMER CEOs had given Zach Snyder SEVEN or EIGHT movies to build a DC cinematic universe from the start? So perhaps he wouldn't have felt constrained? So his INITIAL offerings wouldn't seemed a bit choppy?
From the start - it appears as though there was already a Pre-Set determination to make SOLO MOVIES with DCEU...make money and then call it a day.....and then throw Zach Snyder under the bus subsequently.
"Who needs competition with Marvel Movies when we can make money off of SOLO movies?" Who cares about DC Fans wanting a storyline like MARVELs?"
Before we start opening pocket books and looking at bottom lines, we need to dig DEEPER as to the hows and whys.
Still don't understand....
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, admittedly - but FAR FROM the DULLEST......
Can you break the "Snyderverse Fans are not DC Comics fans" comment down further?
All of those are perfectly good arguments for Snyder to make in his book if he wants to write one. But to a money man it's irrelevant. All he's looking at is a balance sheet. If they were looking for a creative guy, then there might be a discussion had. But if they're putting the business first in show business, those numbers aren't good.
First off, and this is key, that's not what I said. I said
is what I said.
So it's good news for DC comics fans that they're looking at how to carry on making DC comics films. But if you're a DC comics fan, and also a fan of Snyder, it might not be good news.
Here's the thing, though -
Snyderverse fans ARE comic book fans. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Please tell me.....what is the difference?
To be honest this comment would appear to me to be pulled from some other forums...where most of the readers / commenters look down on Snyderverse fans for various ignorant and divisive reasons.
I consider myself to be as versed in Comic Books as ANYONE. Granted I am not a total geek but I know a good comic AND a good cinema experience when I see it.
I also have the GIFT of experience. It is not a gift I take lightly.
The bottom line, though - is that you don't set someone up for failure.
As I've stated before in this thread and OTHER associated threads - the DC Cinema experience is NOT "just" Zach Snyder's fault.
He has tried to fight the good fight. I expect him to continue in DC Cinema until I see something concrete otherwise.
If the new CEOs taking over make the same mistakes as the old CEOs then DC Cinema is doomed to failure - along with the Comic books as well.
Snyderverse fans are a subset of DC comics fans. Using my original allegory of Animal lovers and cat lovers. Let's say some new laws are passed. Cruelty to animals is now punishable by a jail sentence. However, stray catswill be put down, and no longer taken to a shelter.
So if I read that story I could quite rightly say "Good news for animal lovers but bad news for Cat lovers". Reading that, the first part of the sentence would make me pump my hand in the air and say yes! When I got to the latter half, my spirit would sink and go Oh...
I don't look down on anyone either making art, or who enjoys a work of art. I'm a bit of a music snob, but hey whatever gets people dancing I'm all in favour of.
All I was talking about was the business end of what happened with the DCEU.
AGAIN, though - don't you think it's a bit ignorant to divide Snyderverse fans from Comic book fans - no matter how flighty the wording?
I think WE ALL want the SAME THING....a good Cinematic Comic Book experience.
But while we go back and forth on the "Snyderverse versus Comic Book" division "Thor - Love and Thunder" trailer just dropped and it looks GOOD...
I won't bother to post it here - I'm sure that someone else will beat me to it.
Marvel continues to produce good stuff and us "Children" on DC's side continue with our Fandom Divisions.
Disney / Marvel - will continue with it's mostly epic projects - with only MINIMAL "Wokeness" and DC will continue to explore Tokenized "Black Superman"......a woke "Cyclone".......and other feeble attempts to draw in fans.
I'm still hoping that the NEW management "Gets it".
Wake me up when there's more Zach Snyder stuff - as well as Wayne T Carr's John Stewart Green Lantern, a "Vixen" on DC's Big Screen, Icon and Rocket or other ORIGINAL DC characters.
Separate names with a comma.