W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Would be nice to get a word from the devs over any possible solutions they're throwing around. At the very least, to see how severe they plan on nerfing JC. Hopefully they don't kill the game for those that truly enjoy it. I would still JC even if it didn't "front load" damage, I just like pressing buttons

.5 or so sounds about right for a dovetail to me. somewhere between.3-.6 seems right dependent on what the devs decide.

Jump clipping should of been fixed a long time ago. It is the reason why our range weapons are the way they are now. Instead of fixing jump clipping when it first became a problem with range weapons they just put a bandaid on range weapons to have cast bars instead of making it so you couldn't jump clip them.

If this actually works then we can ask to get range weapons to be fully clippable just like melee weapons and get rid of cast bars. This would open up new options to dps from range if you could clip range weapon combos again.

Had this loophole been fixed the proper way 2 and half years ago, this would of never been an issue.

The dovetail time should match the Flight movement cancel, other wise it is not balanced. The faster of the Jump Cancel dovetail or Flight movement cancel will be the chosen one for increased attack speed.

Bizarro Fire Breath while in movement and then cancel movement. If Jump cancel is slower due to a Dovetail, Flight now has an advatange.

Another clip that Jump cancel should not be shorter than is the chat-box toggle. Start a channeled attack and then toggle the chat box....it clips block as well. Just bring the speeds of these cancels in-line with each other.

The solution they have in mind now, unless something has changed, is that you can still jump cancel immediately, just there will be a delay for a yet to be determinded amount of time before you can perform any other attacks.

After the JC changes, they will be able to do that. There is a problem Desinging & Developing around a function that was never taken into consideration or intended (seems like they realized that after the whole "it's a feature not a bug" live-and-let-live approach). The dovetail is a means to tighten variance in JC Clip, the function will still exist but will need to commit to some level of animation so it can be measured around. The ridiculous proposals for a full one second dovetails aren't really going to happen, so I'm not worried about that. It will be slower than it is (duh, nothing is faster than 1 second), but your average PS user won't notice a huge difference if it is something like 0.3, as it is difficult for most to do it consistently. A 0.5 change will be noticeable by everyone (PS/PC), but I wouldn't call a 300 milisecond change for JC clipping a complete and utter slowdown of the system. The weapon cast bars seem more of a slow down than the change to JC tbh--along with the damage nerfs. Anything over 0.5 is a waste of 25 pages, though.

There are more numbers on the older thread, and you can count them up. Most are in "agreement" with anything between 0.3 and .5, seen a few .6's as well, and some good videos showing an approximation. Very few are advocating for 1+ seconds and they are mainly on this thread.

My vote is .5

@JonnyD, @Derio

The problem is 0.3-0.6 is not enough of a delay. They want to fix jump canceling to prevent it from front loading damage. That is the goal here. That is the reason jump canceling has been deemed a "loophole". The only way to fix it, is to match the new universal animation times of 1 to 1.2 seconds. I know those of you who want a lower time only want anything close to 0.0 because you want little or no change. This change must happen to better balance the game going forward.

I am not saying we should make jump canceling slower, you should still be able to cancel an animation and avoid a big red ball that the warrior shot in your direction. What I mama saying after you jump cancel you should be restricted to beneficial powers for 1 to 1.2 seconds after the fact, and all dots, PI's etc should be stripped from your target since you jump CANCELED the attack. That is after all the definition of the word cancel.

If the devs give jump canceling the delays I listed above, not only will support roles be able to continue to use jump canceling the way they always have, but they will be able to prevent us DPS players from front loading damage, which is the goal of this entire thread, just go read the OP. They need to fix jump canceling once and for all, not slap a band aid of 0.3-0.6 seconds, that will most likely be revisited at a later time. They need to fix it once and for all for the universal 1 to 1.2 seconds they are giving everything else, so that everyone can adapt sooner to these changes.

I'm not familiar with those times. Do you happen to know them off-hand?

I'm aware of the solution they have in mind. I've been following this thread. I'm saying they should chime in and join this discussion.

First you cannot say JC is exactly the same for PS and PC. 1.2s would be overkill for PS players, it would be equivalent as getting rid of JC all together. Thats why I downvoted 1.2

Since HL can cancel fan without jump canceling at .5/.6 seconds... Anything .5 would be overkill and pointless

I vote for a .3 JC delay. Enough to reward players with execution and not destroy their current play style they enjoy, and enough of a delay to percent macros

Someday, could we have a video game about superheroes and villains, instead of spastic parade of mental patients jumping all over the place? I play this game because I like the action mmo and super heroes, however it sucks that the only way to stay top dps is jump cancel like a mad man. I've done it and yes it does take some skill, however I really don't think this is the game for those mechanics. Super Mario brothers had less jumping on it then this game currently does with jump canceling. Maybe at some point we can have this game just make us feel super instead of jump crazy?

Giggles, I know you're on a crusade here, but I think you misunderstand what the Dev team means when they say JC is broken. Currently, it allows chaining of 2 damage sources with essentially no intervening delay or visible animation. That is the broken part. You don't have to make JC dovetail last as long as the proposed ability cast animations (1-1.2 sec) in order to restore attack messaging and prevent damage stacking. With other forms of clipping (and let's be honest--JC is a form of clipping that has even been acknowledged by the Dev team), you don't have that long a delay. I think you're pushing this to an unnecessary extreme. We should be shooting for a reasonable dovetail animation that restores messaging and prevents the ability to chain stack damage, while leaving JC as a fun, fast-paced, and viable way to play the game. I say this as someone who has never really used JC, so I don't even have a horse in this race.

@Giggles

I am thinking about the balance of the game and the original intention of jump canceling. I'm not asking for a 0.1 or 0.2 dovetail, but 0.4~0.6 is actually about right. You put that at the end of the jump, that's a long time in the animation and allows anyone to read what it was. When you do fear gas jump cancel, aside from macros, you still end up with some of the animation. Your hands go forward and you know exactly what they are going to do. If you put a 0.6 second dovetail on that, you now have a completely readable animation. That will probably be about 0.8~0.9 total you have to wait for. Which means that it is still slower than clipping, which can be done sometime instantly and remove animation. (Power clipping is completely different than channel jump canceling, as one can't be interrupted for the most part, the other is a loophole.)

If you put a 1.2, which btw is the max length of all future powers, you are looking at 1.4~1.6 animation time. This breaks the mold they are setting in the first place with the normalization of animation times. So please, tell me again how you are making it better.

Remember when (insert comic book of your choice) jump canceled their attacks and stopped all the evil in the world?

The "most" you're talking about still want to use JCclipping for DPS. That's why they want #s under 1. The devs say they don't want us using it for DPS anymore. So, everything that isn't seriously discussing the dev's goal is probably going to be ignored.

Unless a dev explicitly says that JC is no longer to be used to DPS at all, that's your interpretation. When I read the OP on THIS THREAD, that is not what I understood. What I did understand was what JC was intended for, what it evolved into, and that even though they designed it for one thing they realize that it is an important feature to some rotations and they are not looking to take it away, but simply to bring it back to balance. Bringing it back to balance doesn't necessarily mean excluding it from rotations as a means to DPS completely. You can still use it somewhat how it is used now without having your toon look like you're having a complete spasm because of your zero-commitment to animation.

@Giggles

You have repeatedly said you want a fix, not a bandaid.

But this is one of those times, where it really does need a bandaid (a slight adjustment). What you're trying to do, is amputate the whole limb over a tiny cut.

My vote is for a 0.3 to 0.6 dovetail but a 1 to 1.5 second cool down on JC or whatever timing would be required to force more variation. ST>pT>Fan>pT is poor. ST>Fan>pT>Hclaw>claw>Hclaw>pT ( as an example) I could live with. This assumes that balancing of damage is done throughout the powersets to compensate.