W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Well, when the person simply regurgitates the same tired "argument" over and over again and just puts a smiley on the end to annoy the crap out of people, ignore is the best option.

Anyone who uses jump canceling can potentially do it. Why do you think I keep bringing up fear gas? That is one of my staples as a Gadgets user, just like your Fan is Lights staple, I too have a Light character. The bottom line is jump canceling aids in front loading damage, which it should not do, and is a confirmed "loophole" by Spytle.

@Gerbal

All the arguments you are trying to make are completely irrelevant here. The fact is jump canceling is a confirmed "loophole". It is currently being used to front load damage when that was never intended. The devs are working to fix this issue. They already said all animation times will be 1 to 1.2 seconds, so it is pretty safe to assume all power sets will be performing the same way.

I don't know why you keep talking about faster game play. There is a difference between fast and broken, and you obviously prefer broken, while the devs and the majority of us in here do not like broken. Another fun fact, is even after these changes, this will still be the fastest MMO on the market hands down. So this whole speed argument is a non issue.

This "proposed balance" favors just that, balance. It is a necessary change to help better balance this game. Change is happening whether you like it or not. This is not the first or last change this MMO will ever see. If you cannot accept that, then MMO's may not be for you.

Quote my entire sentence next time, not just the bits and pieces you choose to read.

If you read all of my posts in this thread, I am constantly saying jump canceling should be prevented from being used as a tool to front load damage, but should still be in game so that we can cancel an animation to avoid imminent death.

Again, my proposed change is simple. Place a 1 to 1.2 second delay on any utility (damage dealing power) and weapon attack after the initial jump cancel. Then also make sure all PI's and damage after the jump cancel is removed as well, like Banes venom shout in legends. This ensures that jump canceling stays in the game so that people can use it to avoid imminent death, and support roles can use it as they always have, but it would fix the "loophole" of jump canceling being used to front load damage.

I strongly suggest you start reading this thread in it's entirety.

Balance should be a term removed from this discussion... especially by those using it as a basis for altering jump cancel. This is because there are far too many and more egregious imbalances existing in this game than jump cancel. The fact remains, that JC actually is relatively balanced in that it favors every powerset and the powerset it favors the most, Hard Light, would be unquestionably the most imbalanced (weakest) powerset without JC.

In addition, there are several buffer mechanics in place to counter and balance out jump cancelling, and incorrect argumentative points being used to warp the perspective.

1) There is the block/lunge/bb mechanic. Even if an ability is jump cancelled, it's full vulnerability window to be countered remains. How does whipthrash work out against the 4 lex's/batmen? Not well at all.

2) There are the incorrect magical numbers vs. sparring dummies being used as a the 'control group', not actual gameplay numbers, this is incorrect.

3) There is the power consumption, as you are only able to JC abilities if you have the power supply to do so.

4) And there is what the actual abilities hit for... for example while HL unquestionable benefits greatly from JC, it's damage numbers without the JC mechanic are significantly weaker than other DPS classes... Thus imbalance is created as without it, you are creating a huge imbalance with HL being one of, if not, the weakest DPS class.

5) Players are being led to believe this effects PVP as well, when truth is its effects are far less relevent in that environment than PVE due to everything listed above.

6) Finally, they are stating 'what the system can handle' and 'magical macros' Which is whole heartedly false as the system has handled us playing this way for over three years and macros are a violation of TOS.

The issue is NOT balance what so ever. The issue is player knowledge, elitism/machismo on both sides, and game play mechanics.

This is/will be a monumental shift in game play mechanics. While some players are in favor of changing them, defending these changes furiously, there is simply no reason to truthfully agree with them as it does not benefit ANY player. It only hurts players. Most are supporting a change because either they prefer not to play this way, they are using 'balance' as their talking point, which as I stated above I is not the issue, and finally the 'dev said so' as the basis for their arguments, which is unquestionably false as the devs have just discovered this gameplay mechanic in the past two weeks, while it has existed since launch with ample guides, tutorials, and 'how to's' a plenty on the Internet to discover them.

The fact remains, nobody is stopping players who choose not to utilize this mechanic. Thus those supporting the argument with this as thier basis have no ground to stand on and are doing so either due to sour grapes, their own sense of elitism, counter elitism, forum brovada, drinking the kool-aid, or they simply do not understand of what they speak due to inexperience.

This change hurts those who have been knowledgable about the JC mechanic and utilized it to create a faster pace and increased challenge out of relatively easy gameplay. It will have a large negative effect on player population as many of the players effected by the changes solely play this game for this 'challenge' of being the best as the difficulty level for DCUO has completely shifted since Origin Crisis (another topic for discussion all together) leaving very little left to play for continually. the adverse effect of the change is that the same content we have enjoyed will take longer to complete. So if the mechanic changes themselves do not turn you away, try taking longer to complete the same content. Thus, this is not a good direction for the game, those supporting it have a flawed perspective for the reasons stated above, and the discussion never had a chance of being successful largely due to the nature in which it was originally brought up...

While I'm optimistic that Spytle is at least now trying these mechanics out, and will hopefully gain some new perspective on it, This remains a monumental shift in game play, which for many is the sole reason we continue to play. Some players will leave over this. While some players would be quick to say 'good riddance', that's wholly disingenuous as ANY player leaving the game is a bad thing towards DCUO's longevity.

This has come up before in Support and Dev Q&A, and I am not sure where you got that idea that Macros are forbidden. They are and have been allowed in the PC servers since the start, both Support staff and Devs have stated in messages and in-forums that they are allowed -PROVIDED they do not accelerate actions beyond a facsimile of human performance (which is to say instant chains and the like).

You're projecting and doing a LOT of "conjecture as fact" on the part of the Devs. Spytle and Tunso have been aware long before this thread, you're latching onto Spytle's gesture of recently demo-playing a HL user to say 'he just found out' about JC-ing, something he has been repeatedly stressing he knew about and chose not to practice til now FOR DEMO purposes. Furthermore, their roles as Devs on the game does mean 'what they say, goes', as they get direct input and output on the game, the mechanics, and the direction of future developement, so yes 'the Dev said so' is a perfectly legitimate basis for debate on this topic.

I think I begin to see a repetition of the same elitism and spitting-down that poisoned this forum during the OC days. Now I know where this all comes from. Just because this is not the 'good direction for the game' FOR YOU, does not mean this is not the best direction for the game. Furthermore the discussion on this subforum and this thread in particular has never been to debate whether or not a change SHOULD happen. That ship has sailed. This is where we were supposed to discuss the applicable and reasonable durations to be applied for the new changes. There has been a consistent failure on the part of those of you against the JC revisions to accept and understand this. There is no debate on the fact that changes are to be made.

I disagree. When a hacker leaves the game, that's a good thing. When a cheater leaves the game, that's a good thing. When an dupe-exploiter leaves the game, that's a good thing. When a bully leaves the game, that's a good thing. When a stalker leaves the game, that's a good thing. All of these examples make the game environment BETTER and contribute to its longevity. Those who have exploited JC and cannot accept a game without this exploit, are toxic for the game environment in the exact same way.

It's also important to note that Jens himself has said this was not his personal decision, though the reactions of some players suggest they believe otherwise. He said this is a change that must happen in order to better balance the game, as a whole. It's not some vendetta against HL or some particular group of players. It's not some conspiracy to sell DLC 10 and the WM mechanic. Putting a reasonable animation time on JC, standardizing ability animations, and performing a thorough weapon pass will also be accompanied by adjustments to damage across the board. The former facilitates the latter. It will make for a tighter, better balanced, still fast-paced gaming experience. You can choose to believe that or to put on a tin foil hat. It's up to you.

Your entire argument is based on the belief that you stated in the last paragraph. That you believe jump cancelling is a form of hacking/cheating, to which it is not, nor was it ever.

By your responses, I can see that you are no better when it comes to' elitism and spitting-down' and unfortunately you view challenging content, OC, as elitism and a negative thing.

I choose to form my own opinions rather than blindly follow others.

I just want to know where jump canceling has ever been an issue...I never saw a thread once saying that jump canceling is bad and is causing an imbalance in the power sets....i always thought some powers hit to hard and other hit to soft....or that some powers just needed some sort of power interaction buffing....I'm against the jump canceling changes but will have to deal with it....I mean when I'm gadgets I only if fear gas....and with rage I only jc one move....forgot the name...but they are important powers too...on the other hand hard light players it is super important to jc....glad I'm not hard light cause jc is a must....hard light has no power interactions so jc ing helps them keep up....

You say it's not about balance, but according your points above, it's totally about balance. That's called a disconnect buddy. Wanting it to be a certain way doesn't mean it is a certain way. You just rationalized it out, listed it, put it into words in a post and still didn't recognize to it. Total disconnect.

You're answering form a player perspective and ignoring the Development side. No, fixing it doesn't directly benefit any powerset because it's not supposed to This has been said so many times already. It benefits ALL players because it improves the Devs ability to balance the game itself, the encounters, give us meaningful content and balanced powersets.

I've been knowledgable about JC since HL was released and it being fixed doesn't hurt me. Fixing it makes the game better. It's abuse has hurt everyone that plays the game and your wordy plea is a very jaundiced recap of the issue. And remember, another reason this is being done is to clean up the toxic atmosphere of the game ... Spytle's Player's Hat post specifically tells us this is also being done to get rid of the toxic players and their toxic attitudes because these players and this pervasive attitude drives off the game's more casual players So, there are some big indirect benefits. This is a win for the game and it's real players, not a loss and there's nothing disingenuous about that.

The only thing true that you've said, is that this will be a monumental shift in gameplay, but for a very small percentage of the game's players.

Good riddance to bad rubbish, as the saying goes...

There's a thread complaining about clipping every week since HL was released. What they were complaining about was actually Jump Cancel clipping. The people doing it just labelled it as normal clipping when it wasn't. Spytle's OPs here have defined them properly.

QFT. They like to ignore these facts. But it's all true.

Not really. Spytle has specifically explained that Jump Cancel clipping is not and was not ever intended. It is a mechanic that is being misused. And while he clearly said he would not call it cheating or an exploit; he called it a "loophole". But Spytle also has to be careful of what he says politically so that he doesn't tick off people too much.

I also like to form my own opinions... And I don't have to worry about ticking anyone off. So, as far as I'm concerned, the player is *exploiting* an aspect of intended mechanics for their own unintended purposes. And by definition that is an exploit to me.

cant wait for this to go live T_T

Hl will still be better than electric and earth, even with the proposed changes. Hl has been on top for a very long time. It is about time that it was brought down to a realistic level. Not to mention the fact it looks ridiculous to see hl players hopping around all day.

We need numbers people, not constant post complaining about HL. Been running in circles for 24 pages only to further complain about HL. Give devs #s for the dovetail. I am also voting against the dovetail being set to 1.2s

you know that the animation for snap trap, one of HL's best powers, is a jump, right?

Some people appear to have this mythical impression HL is going to be nerfed in any meaningful way. The fact is, it barely actually demands the instant jump cancel for damage, not that JC is going away completely; the move can actually be interrupted by a range tap directly, just not instanteously. Otherwise, most of its speed is pure clipping, and that is going untouched.

So... yeah. Not really going to feel all that much pain.

Make the dovetail 1.2s please and thank you.

I agree with SuperiorMouse. The dovetail/delay after the jump should be 1.2 seconds. I feel this delay should apply to any utility and weapon attack. The reason for this, is it would prevent the jump cancel from being used to do anything but avoid imminent death. Which is the exact "loophole" the devs are trying to fix.

Even as a joke, that shouldn't be to go with the normalization of animation times that is also going with this change. So you have the cast animation jump plus another 1.2 seconds. You would be doing more in wait than just letting it go to the end.

I actually think a 0.4~0.6 is probably a sweet spot to work with. Considering that clipping animations isn't going away, all channeled powers that can be jump cancelled will become useless and not used.

im with giggles jump cancelling should be taken away as front load damage and instead give r&d pi's such as karmic hex, static shock, and shock inducer etc seperate cooldowns. So hl can still clip with them instead of jump cancel and retain their speed minus the hopping

@BumblingB

That's just it though BumblingB, most people, myself included do not wait for the cast o pf the power. We cancel it right away and get the full benefit. I am trying to balance this game, not keep it slightly tilted in my favor. The only way to normalize jump canceling with a play style that does not jump cancel is to make the dovetail/delay after the jump cancel equal to the new universal animation time.

Again, I feel that this delay should only apply to powers flagged as utility, and weapon attacks. This way we can all jump cancel to avoid death, but not jump cancel to make our DPS better. Keep in mind, they are trying to fix it so we do not use jump canceling to front load damage. This would accomplish just that, while allowing support roles to jump cancel the way they do now and not effect them. Jump canceling to front load damage is a "loophole", and thus must be fixed.

@Bartngaue

The cool down on those damage dealing PI consumables are just fine the way they are now, I personally think they need a longer cool down, but I will save that for another thread. I disagree with the separate cool downs for those PI consumables, but I agree with you that should be taken away as a tool to front load damage.