W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Discussion in 'Concluded' started by Spytle, Mar 3, 2014.

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  1. MentosTroll Loyal Player

  2. Supremo BR Well-Known Player

    Cant you buff earth, ice, fire, elec e etc?
    • Like x 1
  3. BLK Well-Known Player

  4. Ogat New Player

    Noone is forcing ANYONe to jc tho, the people not liking to jc seem hell-bent on ruining it for those who do tho. And No it's not The ONLY play style, not the only successfull one not even an enforced one, how many leauges run 4 dps with dual wield as opposed to 3 dps 3 trolls? Exactly.. As soon as there's no infinite power supply the advantage is null and void- you simply can't be sustained.
    • Like x 6
  5. Derio 15000 Post Club

    Because rolling is such a long animation I doubt dps would go from JC to RC.
    • Like x 4
  6. Vinny Tireshine New Player

    I hope the devs can balance accordingly based on what classes are most affected by removing jump cancel.
    • Like x 1
  7. MentosTroll Loyal Player

    HL's Fan is the cause of all these balancing right?
    I feel like all the other jump cancellable moves such as Terrorize, Impaling Thorns, Impaling ice, light last AKA 35% finishers are pretty balanced because
    1. they use a ton of power
    2. the big hit comes from the second tick that if you jump cancel out early, you won't get.

    Also there's the other jump cancellable moves ICE has, like avalanche, glacial flash, etc OR HL's minigun that does terrible damage if you jump cancel on the first frame as most of the damage happens during its animation. So these powers are balanced.

    It's really just FAN that needs balancing, I don't understand why we need to drag down every power along with it.
    • Like x 3
  8. Waterfall Well-Known Player

    Ok, I think I missed something. This whole dove tail thing that is proposed...... is it preventing ppl from jump canceling all together for X amount of time? or is it making it so that IF you jump cancel in that X amount of time then you actually canceled the damage? Personally I would like to see jump cancelling left in at all times, and have it so that IF you jump cancel it to early you just canceled some of your own damage.
    • Like x 1
  9. Remander Steadfast Player

    The dovetail is an animation that plays out the cancellation of the ability. For instance, if you cast HL Fan, then JC, you will have to see the Fan be put away over some period of time, which is yet to be determined.
  10. ssJoniFoXss Committed Player

    u n
    u need to know that hard light super power skill dont do alot of dmg , if u compare only the power VS any power in game is weak.. BUT cuz hes (HL POWER ) fast rotation with combo plus weapon he rech the top.. ( all might tik of HL are Ridiculous and u will never see 4k crit with the skill like celes , rage . gadget , nature , ice .... ) on both side " might or prec "
    i wes HL light for 2 years change for refrash only but what i tell u know m8 its for 100 % ...
  11. oF1RESTARo New Player

    I proposed this exact thing in the previous thread. Why not make the JC cancel damage. If you JC during Ice blast, fire blast doesn't it cancel the damage? Why not do for all powers?

    I have been learning HL so i can understand this more. What I found out is if you don't do the rotation right you jump too high and slow things down. I understand what Spytle is saying because a perfect HL rotation of ram, snaptrap, fan jump grenade isn't the true rotation. Ram, snaptrap, fan, grenade, jump is how you mash. The grenade comes out not after fan, but after jump while you are starting over. Basically your pushing range to get a grenade before jumping and because of this you jump a minimal amount and start over with ram coming out almost as the grenade does. The ability to go right back into your rotation without having a big delay is what makes HL so fast and enjoyable for those that enjoy the speed. They cancel fan because it does good damage with the first hit then does next to nothing. I'm sure instead of jump they could cast recharge or something but it will be major power hungry.
  12. Invictus2112 New Player

    Now I'll admit, if JC definitively cancelled all damage AND EFFECTS of a move, then maybe they could keep it as is due to there being nothing to message... well, mostly, it still could maybe used for tricking someone, but at least it shouldn't count as 4 different effects happening at once.

    That said, how do you do that? A -very- good example of a power that JC makes extremely effective is Rage's Plasma Retch. It is a 50%, adds a potent dot, and applies the PI that fuels the great damage of outrage and dreadful blast. The balancing point is "supposed" to be that it channels, but it can be JC'ed immediately. Thing is, this only quites the channel, and thus the period before the dots timer starts. The dot is still applied (for around two full DB combos or so)l and the PI still is applied for quite some time. Like this, it simply is extremely effective at its job because it comes at no risk or opportunity cost. But its not just damage, its the things that stick around despite it being cancelled, without any sort of penalty.

    I think some people would underestimate how much less they'd care for JC'ing at all if it literally cut everything off at that point, which is the only way that JC wouldn't be giving an "invisible advantage", for lack of a better term. Like, I think Fan would still actually be working as desired... which kind of points out how this STILL isn't good enough, because it is probably the iconic offender of what JC'ing adds to a rotation. There could still be those 2-3 rifle grenades in the span of a second or so which is actually a huge part of this whole messaging issue and a part of how JC abuses the given flow of clipping. OR, you'd JC fan so fast that you'd literally do NO damage with Fan. Which'd then be absurdly pointless.

    I mean, I get it, JC'ing is REALLY FUN... if you like the extreme pace it gives. I have been toying around with an HL dps atm, and I have used a really simple Snap-Fan-JC/Grenade, just to get an idea of how quick it is. Hoo Boy. Compare that to DB after DB with Rage, and it kind of feels like an acute adrenaline rush.


    But in the end, no matter how "fun" it is, no matter how well they could make weapon combos work alongside powers and clipping without imbalance... this needs to go. I think some of you just aren't getting this... This is FOR THE DEVS THEMSELVES. Yes, occasionally, despite how popular a mechanic might be amongst a good portion of the fanbase, from a designer view, a mechanic is utterly toxic to work with and around. They either can't do so, or only with great difficulty and further compromising of the system. And that is definitely neither fun and is "not intended" to crack open the memetic phrase here.

    So yes, the devs are doing it. They think it will benefit many players. But more importantly they are doing it for THEIR vision of THEIR game. And integral structural framework that, quite simply, is not an option for them to budge on. It'd be like being able to somehow get mod gear in another MMO; I am sure players would love it, but the designers don't and can't want it, fullstop. Now obviously JC'ing isn't anything quite as blatantly cheating as that would appear, but it is a similar principle, in that it just is not within their vision of the game.

    And you know what, I will say this: The Devs eff'd this up. Big time. Like, huge. Not because they are doing this. But because they are doing this NOW. Holy crap that was dumb. Sorry guys, love the work you do and appreciate what you make, but that was just stupid. Because yes, some people came to play this game for THAT speed. And they had no reason to believe that this was coming after a couple of years of this being standard and accepted. So there will be concerns, doubts, sorrow, rage, and vitriol. Because this game wasn't made for them. They just somehow didn't know until just now.

    So yeah... There isn't going to be negotiation on whether or not JC stays in as it currently is. It just won't. But in all honesty its not fair to expect those who want to keep it to not be somewhat angry or feel put out. Because they were. This is rather late in the game to suddenly realize this is that abusive.
    • Like x 1
  13. Spytle Executive Creative Director

    My second post has been updated with some responses to your feedback up to this point. Thanks!
  14. helvetica New Player

    Spytle, thanks again for laying this all out for us all.

    Looking at this from another angle...

    Have you guys internally discussed how viable the JCclipping and normal Clipping strings are if you removed the "battery" functions completely from controllers and made everyone responsible for generating their own power? (How it was in beta). This seems like a good time to bring it up. Ogat pointed out how power hungry those playstyles are. So, starving those players and forcing them to make their own power would keep them from doing these attack clipping strings wouldn't it? Lots of high end players don't even use their weapon attacks to regen power anymore. smh.

    Otherwise, if we're sticking to fixing it at the source, I'd like to see jump cancelling trigger the dovetail and cancel all damage.
  15. Spytle Executive Creative Director

    Added a response to my second post for you. :)
    • Like x 1
  16. CCBatson Dedicated Player

    After reading the initial thread so far, and then Spytle's second post update, I think that Jump Cancelling needs a dovetail of minimum .6 to .7 seconds in length. I'd personally prefer a 1.1 to 1.3 second dovetail, because macros can abuse the smaller intervals to a degree that human fingers are less able to match. From what Spytle says, the act of Jump Cancelling itself is unaffected, so for purposes of getting the heck out of damage -it's still good-to-go. But the dovetailing is proposed to be added thereafter, so that the abuse of chained clipping that was unintended and exploitative can be neutered. I am 100% in favor of cutting JC DPS tactics off at the knees. Make it nonviable for abuse. Make it so that even with a Macro activating everything at perfect intervals, there's still a delay that can be SEEN by the human eye and recognized.

    The Dovetail is not only necessary, it's an elegant solution that still allows the intended escape use of jump-cancelling while putting a speedbump on the chain-abuse of offensive powers clipped with offensive powers.
    • Like x 1
  17. helvetica New Player

    Me too. :/ I have an endgame controller character but I hate playing her and probably won't until the situation with controllers changes tbh. But aside from the politics of this potential solution, I do think this solution would resolve the problem. I know there are controllers that enjoy being batteries, but let's be honest, they're a tiny minority. Anyone who really wants to be a healer just rolls a real healer anyhow and no matter what someone's gonna be PO'd with changes. It makes sense to make that the smallest group in the big picture.

    This is exactly how I feel too.
  18. Grid Ion Committed Player

    Power animation times will be 1 - 1.2 second. Making a dovetail as long as the animation time doesn't seem right. Also dovetail and animation times are two separate topics. Dovetail is related to jump clip solely.
    • Like x 1
  19. Sore Steadfast Player

    I see it but you might want to add a graph showing a jump cancel with a dovetail in place. It might help.
  20. Sore Steadfast Player

    FEEDBACK: Consider ensuring the player is mobile during the dovetail animation and not frozen in place.
    • Like x 2
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