Unfair Criticism DPS

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by BrainFade, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. LowFlyingMoon Loyal Player

    Just keep in mind that gear is not everything.The difficulty jump between t4 and t5 is quite high, although the solos and alerts have been nerfed lately (t5 solos were easy to begin with). Personally, as a Nature DPS I had a bit of trouble when I first started running those - even after I got a few manta pieces. And especially in groups with no tank. Had to change a lot in my approach, but I have to say that it was worth it. About a month after the last time a got kicked from T5a for not being able to compete with full T5 HL DPS I completed Nexus on second try, topping the DPS chart both times (first time we got to the last boss).

    The solution would be running with reasonably skilled league-mates, watching some videos of Your power-set being used in t5 and optimizing the use of whatever U have/can get to maximize Your performance in Your role - I assume You're DPS, since this is a DPS thread. I found Nitro/Flex Soders, Expert mods, quick-switching trinkets, Damaging consumables, DPS-oriented HT stuff, movement abilities (I switched to superspeed for better clips and faster combat movement), pure DPS spec and more SP (U can never have enough) helped a lot to close the gap between me and top DPS.

    But the main thing for t5 (especially raids) is a good ranged rotation that utilizes both weapons and powers, that clip each other and do as much ranged AoE and DoTs as Your power-set can muster. Also - dodging/rolling and keeping the right distance from bosses/adds. That's why ranged weapons, like rifle and Hand Blasters are popular among DPS all of a sudden. I still wouldn't recommend going into t5 raids though, without a full Manta - unless U're really good and/or have friends willing to carry U. I find that taking Your time works well for PvE in this game. People who attempt t5 under-geared - or other-wise not ready for it - tend to get disheartened after a bunch of fails and stop playing or play only PvP.

    Anyway - new T5 content is about to go live, so obtaining T5 Marks/gear should get a lot easier.

    Good luck.
  2. Miss Adora Loyal Player

    My main I heal and dps, but mostly heal. I even get burned out healing at times so I need a break from it. I'm duel specced for both roles, so all I have to do is switch gear and press T. I can go full spec as a healer and almost as a dps, but switching 136/7 sps is annoying.

    I have atank as an alt, that I mainly tank, but lately switching to dps, because lack of demand for tanks unless for raids.

    Also have gadgets toon, right now I'm dpsing but planning on learning to troll with it.

    like someone said earlier, people want you with expert mods, I have no expert plans. I'm not going to pay some 200k for one neither, when I get my own, I'll upgrade my mods.
  3. The Lone Stranger Devoted Player

    As a troller, I'm probably one of the first to criticize dpses. Why? Because they certainly feel free to criticize me!
    If I go through the same raid ten times in PUGs, there will be 3 successes and 7 fails. In the 3 successes, there are very few problems. In the fails, one or two dpses and the trollers have empty power bars, while the healers, one or two tanks, and possibly a remaining dps (if only 1 tank) have power bars that stay over half full. It's the dps with the empty power bar who starts in on the "lousy" controllers for not providing enough energy. It's plenty for the other roles! It's plenty in the groups that don't fail!
    The problem is the dps who doesn't realize that he has weapons as well as powers.
    The problem is the dps who doesn't seem to carry any soda.
    The problem is the dps who doesn't know how to block and/or roll.
    The problem is the dps who shouts at the healer for not healing, at the troller for not giving unlimited power, and at the tank for whatever reason he can make up.

    A good dps manages his power.
    With a good dps, when we hit the boss, I'll have enough power to hit my trinket and say "SPAM for 20 seconds", then when my trinket recharges "SPAM again". In order to get that second - usually killing spam in, I have to have enough power to keep PoT, as well as hit like 4 or 5 instant powers in a row with no other action. In other words - I have to build to an almost full bar. IF the dps is burning through power, we both run out, and we wipe - OR I just quit giving power other than PoT to build enough to have my shield to pick him up when he dies - a DPS is rather squishy and the guys who burn through the power also seem to think they're tanks in most cases.

    I've run with good dpses. I can tell you who they are. I can even tell you which one I feel had the most skill - and he's not CR 90-anything. He was, however, shocked to be TOLD to spam at the boss!

    The problem is this - for those of us who are newer, getting into raids is more and more frustrating. I've seen CR 97+ for KHANDAQ in LFG! So, many new players are speed-grinding their way to higher gear, without taking the time to learn to play their role or build their skill points. And, I'll admit - I should probably have about 6-10 more skill points than I do at my current CR (72). I'm somewhat guilty of this myself.

    Learning other roles helps the dps understand what the other roles do and what is takes to do so successfully. THIS is the main reason so many people say to learn your off role.

    The last time a dps started criticizing my use of power, I got a good laugh: I'd run the same alert with the same Tank twice before. Also with the same healer twice before. The dps started in, as so many who don't know how to play do, on the power supply. The tank said, "Troll is good. If there is problem, you are problem". The healer added, "We never had problems with any other dps! Should we kick you?". I didn't say a word, but was laughing like crazy, and I really appreciated their support. The dps straightened up, and after that, we had no problems.

    So, is the criticism of dps unfair? Maybe, but it's a stereotype that seems to fit the vast majority of dpses, so teach them to be better and prove the rest of us wrong!
    • Like x 1
  4. BadJade New Player

    The only time I have an issue with DPS is when these conditions occur:

    - The tank/troller/healer MUST NOT BEAT YOU IN DAMAGE OUT EVER, AT ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.. NO... NEVER.. if you are at least 10 mins into the instance and if the dps is not on top, you will take a lot longer then you need so ask them what the deal is and or boot

    - The DPS tries to solo everything and is way out of Line Of Sight for the healer = I am a healer I heal the TEAM.. you are a dps killing things I am NOT anyway compelled to CHASE you to heal you at all, ONLY THE TANK has that right. Instances can be completed without DPS, will take longer but its doable and if you are in a habit of doing this and constantly dying and needing ressing, it will stop eventually to not waste any more power/time on you.

    Otherwise DPS are fine there is just too many of them.
  5. The Lone Stranger Devoted Player

    Very good points as well.
  6. BrainFade New Player

    Great points Lone Ranger :)

    I have recently used my dps as a gadget troll as well and do understand the difficulty trolls have. The problem is no one wants to be patient and let me learn. It doesn't bother me though if the dps has no power to be honest shows that he is taking damage the only suggestion I have is leave enough power for a shield of some sort apart from that no power= doing there job.
  7. The Lone Stranger Devoted Player

    When I dps with my troll, I have my instant power in my loadout. That way, If the group's power is low, I can actually help the troller a little. And, I've worked hard on my weapons combos, so a lot of my damage comes from my precision, not my might. But, I only dps lower tier stuff, to build my experience. I leave T3 and T4 dpsing to the pros. I wish everyone else who is still learning did the same sometimes. Also - I haven't found the perfect dps loadout for Quantum powers yet. (PM me if you have suggestions! Anyone? Anyone?)
  8. T20thoughts New Player

    Man, when I saw the thread title I was seriously hoping for an Unfair Criticism power in the making. Dunno about you, but I wanna rock that Confidence Crush PI, then weapon combo and clip into Parental Insult or Sarcastic Praise.
  9. Kristyana New Player

    I don't think anyone is bashing on people who prefer to play one role, as long as they aren't ignorant of the abilities of the other roles.

    I have one of each type of toon at the T5 level. I tank, I troll, and I heal, and all three of them DPS when the mood strikes me.

    Playing as the other roles, heck, even if it's just the one support role your main has when you don't have alts will make you far better at that role.

    Is your off-role a tank? Roll as a tank once in a while and it will make you a better DPS because you'll learn what a tank can and can't do when it comes to juggling and holding aggro.

    Is your off-role a troller? Play as a troller for a while so you realize just how much power one can actually put out while managing other things like CCing stray adds the tank misses and cycling debuffs and shields.

    Is your off-role a healer? Play as a healer so you'll know what they go through if you're someone who tries to kill something using any means possible and never backs off for any reason.

    Playing a healer made me a better tank. Playing a troller made me a better DPS. And it goes on and on.

    Regarding PVP gear in PVE, as a healer, I HATE that. If I'm overgeared, great. If I'm at the CR level of the content, you're getting kicked from my group at the first available opportunity. The reason why is that while you have a larger health pool, you have NO mitigation which means you take the full damage of anything that attacks you. Guess who has to heal ALL that damage? I'm not going to work 30% to 40% harder (assuming I can keep up at all) so you can get 10% more might or precision. Accessories like rings, neck, and facepiece are fine as the tradeoff is huge. But armor pieces? No.

    The added health means you'll be able to take roughly the same amount of raw damage as someone else in appropriate PVE gear, but the healers are working a LOT harder to keep you alive.
    • Like x 1
  10. SeekXploit New Player

    After playing this game for over a year, it never amazes me how people freak the f*** out if they see someone wearing any pvp gear. Not talking about the weapon, talking about the armor. It's easier to get and a lot of the time, especially at lower levels it does so much more to keep you alive with the much higher hp pool and better stats.

    I've lost count at how many times a person would cry about me wearing pvp gear, then at the end of the raid/alert I have the least amount of deaths (if any) and I'm on top with the highest damage, almost every single time.

    Even now, I don't have full T5 gear yet, so I still mix and match pvp armor pieces to get the highest possible might + precision.
  11. Sef Prime Well-Known Player

    As a DPS, I am far from the best. However, I know how to survive, and just as importantly, manage power. When I am grouped in an instance with a HL DPS for example, I will rely on my weapon attacks more because I know that the controller can only pump out so much power. The healer needs power always. I will hold back on power usage as long as I can continue to contribute effectively for the team. However, if I am seeing that the DPS is hogging power and not ahead of me in damage, and the team is struggling because of that, then I make adjustments and let the team decide which is the preferred route.
    Long story short, I always try to be a team player. The game is more enjoyable that way. I do not try to top the score board by playing reckless. Least amount of deaths, power in, damage in, along with decent damage out is still a good accomplishment for me.
    • Like x 1
  12. Zim New Player

    Agree with everything you said. I couldn't of said it better.
  13. ACW37162 Loyal Player

    Truth is in T5 content DPS get fair criticism.

    It is not unfair to expect you to invest a set of gear for your actual role and know how to play it.

    It is not unfair to if you cry about power.

    It is not unfair if you blame the troll, tank, or healer for every wipe.

    It is not unfair if you are full T5 with 70 or fewer skill points.

    It is not unfair if you lie about your cr. skill. points, or experience

    It is not unfair if you max weapon combo is 4 hits or fewer.

    It is not unfair if you a scoreboard chaser, have to be top DPS DPS.

    It is not unfair if your ratio of damage out to power in is not better than 5 :1 and that is just to be average

    It is not unfair if you drop your supply drop with a full power bar and health just for the 50 % damage modifier on your super and you didn't call it out or didn't move and drop it at the trolls feet also

    60% percent of every role is average to bad just because they really haven't invested much time besides watching a you tube video. There are more DPS than anything else 60% of more players is more is more average to bad players.

    Chances are it is not unfair at all.
  14. The Lone Stranger Devoted Player

    This is an excellent point. I'm not a healer, and have not played one, so I never saw this little detail.
    I've never run a raid or alert in PvP gear, but still, I appreciate you pointing out this failure in the "enough health balances the loss of defense" argument. Now, I know I'll never do it with an alt.

    Thank you for being logical, and sharing your insights.
  15. Maradakia Well-Known Player

    As per this whole discussion: I recall that in other MMOs I've played over the years there was an option in your settings to make it so other people could NOT inspect you, if you didn't want. I think it was called "anonymous". It was much appreciated for just this reason. It really gets aggravating sometimes when people inspect you without your consent and start dictating to you how you have to change this, and that, and play differently - lecture; criticize; blame; harass


    > Dear developers : )
    Please add one option to our in-game settings which we can turn on or off to make our own character not able to be inspected by others if we choose.
  16. Willydon305 New Player

    I have no problem with a person that only wants to DPS as long as they are good at what they do or they don't try and critique or malign other players when they have zero knowledge on how that role operates. I've encountered some amazing DPSes who only have alt DPSes and they are just as much of an asset to a raid group as a beast troller, healer or tank. When you're going for the no tag out feat, you will know the worth of a good DPS...
    • Like x 1
  17. The Lone Stranger Devoted Player

    Willydon, you and I have disagreed on several topics in the past. But on this, you couldn't be more right.
    I only suggest other roles, to help the dps learn to interact with the other roles - to learn better teamwork.
    But, the truth is, most of us are tired of the poor dpses that blame everyone else for their own shortcomings - or even when things just go wrong occasionally - and there is really no one to blame.
    Work with the team - not against it - and kill lots of stuff. That's the job of the dps. Everything else that people have said are just tips to try to do this - including everything I've said.
  18. Kristyana New Player

    IF your healer can keep up, there's no problem with it, as long as it's an alt and you at least try to avoid some damage by blocking or rolling. Even with something like 1420 defense, that's still 20% mitigation. A hit for 1000 hits you for 800, and that 800 is all I have to heal. With no defense you'd take the full hit for a thousand, and I'd have to heal all of that. That extra healing can make the difference if you're at the CR appropriate gear level.

    Not to mention the fact that as a healer I'll be sucking up a lot more power to keep heals up, which puts more stress on the troller.
  19. Maradakia Well-Known Player

    In general I avoid blaming anyone - period. I try to encourage others also not to blame each other after a wipe. It's probably usually a combination of many people, and the random unfolding of circumstances, and most people are playing their characters well. Blame is usually frustrated people casting about for something they can change outside of them so to try to alleviate their upset... but they blindly hurt other people in their blaming, and it makes the game a nastier environment to be in.

    As for the contributions of different roles in general: It seems to me the only time you can possibly be correct in blaming the DPS for a wipe is when a specific encounter is designed to become more difficult if you don't complete it within a set time frame. This could be that the boss is designed to have an "enrage timer" of sorts, where they're programmed to hit twice as hard if the fight lasts beyond 5 min, or suddenly piles of adds will spawn after the 5 min mark. Stuff like that. Sometimes there are fights where an add spawns that need to die very fast. Sometimes though, fights are designed that when the boss gets to x health, maybe at 33% of their own health, it automatically triggers the above increased damage or adds, but has nothing to do with a timer. If it's the latter then it also does not have to do with the DPS. You can't outrun by sheer speed of DPS the set mechanics of a fight triggered by the bosses health level etc...

    In any fight where there is not some sort of timer within which you beat it or by design it suddenly gets much harder, survival is not about DPS. In most cases the DPS simply affect how long an alert or raid lasts overall but not your success or failure. Survival in most situations is about smart pulls (not biting off more than you can chew), a good Tank who knows how to pull aggro on all that is needed and has the stats to endure the beating, a good Healer who keeps those heals pouring in and doesn't wait until people are about to die before healing, and a good Controller who keeps them powered up and able to do their jobs, as well as keeping debuffs on so you aren't hit overly hard. If those factors are strong and you're not in a timed fight that is designed to kill you if you don't complete it within X time, then survival is not about DPS.

    One good example is the final boss fight in FR, with Lex and the Overseer. I was once in there with a Tank who instructed the rest of us to please go very slowly on the damage. He said that as long as we didn't steal aggro from him, we could take our time, and it would be a win. It was hard making myself go slow when I'm used to feeling pressured to go as fast as possible, but I did. We all did. And he was right. You can take as long as you want in there. DPS is basically immaterial. With a durable Tank, strong, sustainable heals, and plenty of power, you can beat it at your leisure.

    But something that gets overlooked is how strongly the Scorecard affects how people play their characters, and how much it affects the interactions between people, and therefore the enjoyability, or lack there of, of DCUO.

    As a DPS you are usually in there with others in your role, and people eye those scorecards all the time and if one DPS is somewhat behind the others it's not unusual to suddenly get booted without word. Boom! Gone. Also, if you don't get tossed out before the end, your reputation and your chance of invite in the future is affected by how near your DPS is to the other DPS players.

    This isn't based on whether that much DPS was *needed* for success in the given fight. It's simply a comparison of one DPS to another, even if all the DPS players were way overpowered for the needs of the situation. Because of this, there's a constant feeling of pressure to always go full out as DPS.

    If you wanted to be smarter and hold off so your Tank doesn't have to fight so hard for aggro... then you risk being thrown out of the group because then your damage on the Scorecard lags behind. If you wanted to be smart and considerate and not burn through so much power... you can't because of risk of being thrown out. If you wanted to take the time to change your positioning in the room to be out of harms way better so the Healer isn't overworked trying to rescue you... you can't waste the time to walk around repositioning because of the *&^@* Scorecard. < I mean, you can do all of those things, but in truth, the time taken for those things, when the other DPS players are not doing them, does indeed mean a notable drop in your total damage, and people really do kick you suddenly if they see your damage is a chunk behind the other people. It also prompts people to inspect you, and start harassing you about your chosen power type, weapon type, gear, usage of clipping, etc.. Suddenly they assume you got to cr 97 and are an idiot who knows nothing, and they are the expert on your character and they are frustrated if you don't want to do things their way.

    So... I suggest if you want people to play smarter and not just rush, petition for an option in Settings to NOT have your own character show up on the Scorecard if you don't want to. If you can focus on playing smart, and not always be in a competition to keep the top damage, or within a short gap from it, then it will be much easier on Tank, Healers, and Trollers. If everyone is always being judged by that Scorecard, people will naturally fight for top numbers, not because they're idiots, but because if they don't do so, they get Kicked or reprimanded, and lose reputation as a "good" player.
  20. Willydon305 New Player

    Every role has their fair share of people who like to point the finger and from my experiences the most group cynicism usually comes from healers more so than DPSes. People don't respect the DPS role in this game because it's less exclusive than the other roles (Do to the fact that everyone can spec into it, regardless of role) but remember that most raid group run with 3 DPSES, so if they were that insignificant that wouldn't be the case. So I never understood why the DPS role has so many detractors….