Underperforming powers - Let's talk

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by Rubsarb, Aug 14, 2017.

  1. Rubsarb Level 30

    Let me preface this post by saying the revamp as a whole is doing ok. That being said, there are some dissent growing in the community that some powers are being severely overlooked. There are two issues I will address that I feel is hampering the stats matter movement, and hopefully draw some attention to some real problems that many PFtT players are facing currently in DCUO.

    1. STATS MATTER
    2. RISK/REWARD


    The issue is that in the current state of the stats revamp, no matter how much power certain powersets use (be it 2 times or even 3 times the amount), certain powersets just can't close the gap at all, irrespective of STATS, which is a problem in a STATS MATTER revamp. Some solutions my leaguemates and I tried to ATTEMPT to close the gap would be run a very power hungry loadout that consumes a MASSIVE amount of power to even try to keep up with those powers. However, despite running two trolls, rotating supplies/soders/trinkets, certain powersets simply pale in comparison to others.

    Furthermore, there should be more balancing in terms of RISK/REWARD. Electricity, for example, has fantastic AOE damage AND good single target damage. On top of that, achieving high numbers as electric takes little to no risk to execute since proximity to the enemy is not really a factor.

    Now, don't get me wrong, the point of this point is not calling for nerfs to certain powersets, but rather the opposite. Having certain powersets strong against trash mobs vs. others that are excel at single target creates more dynamic gameplay and options/considerations in choosing which powerset to use that makes the game more interesting. Buffing certain powers and nerfing others ISN'T the solution (or it would be called a POWER MATTERS update). Rather, a solution would be to tweak the COMBAT.


    What I mean by tweaking the COMBAT is to grant a higher risk/reward for executing certain moves properly. I mentioned this prior to the release of the stats matter update (and the developers did implement some risk/reward mechanics, i.e. melee moves are generally stronger than ranged); however, it seems those buffs were made predominately at the POWER SET LEVEL, and not as GAMEPLAY MECHANIC.


    Take Rage for example, due to the nature of rage DPS being predominately melee, the damage out for rage make sense due to the RISK of dying (zero dps when dead) when melee attacking adds or bosses. However, it seems only RAGE really feels the benefit of the Risk/Reward mechanic. All other powersets have the similar risk/reward mechanics in place, but at a much smaller scale. Due to this, there is a real trade-off / dillemma for Rage DPS to utilize melee or range powers, but not really so much for other powersets. Certain powersets currently not only excel in AOE or single target, but are largely UNAFFECTED by any risk/reward trade-offs at all.

    If these two issues are addressed (even at a certain extent), I believe DCUO will move towards an era of discussing HOW to better play their power, not "which power is OP."
    • Like x 13
  2. JasonIsley Devoted Player

  3. Predicament Well-Known Player

    I completely agree that risk/reward needs to be looked at from not just a power stand point but weapons and not fully being looked at for risk vs reward. I am not talking strictly about melee vs ranged combos for weapons. Currently melee AoE melee combos are under performing vs AoE ranged weapon attacks. I am not calling for nerf for ranged weapon attacks as they are still underwhelming compared to powers. I understand weapon combos cost no power compared to power being used, but for the sake of this example if I spam 3 powers in a row, they will out perform almost all 3 second combos from weapons. The cost of power should be there to guarantee the damage hits, where as using a weapon to build up to a 3 second combo holds more risk. The targets can either have moved away from range causing you to miss or they can even counter you causing additional damage taken and a loss in damage because you didn't finish your combo. Where as a power being casted is a guaranteed hit and no danger of getting countered.

    Hybrids and WM builds also suffer from needing might and powers to keep up with pfft powers. On top of that, to be competitive you need to use melee combos but suffer from needing to spec might and precision, leaving no extra points to spec into health, where a full might build can finish off the might skill tree easy and have left over to spec health, to have better survivability for melee powers.
    • Like x 2
  4. Winter Sabel Dedicated Player


    Risk vs reward is kind of a joke. IRL long range weapons do more damage.
    • Like x 2
  5. Mighty Committed Player

    Not saying I completely disagree with the risk/reward thing, but personally I've not been a man of the WM/AM meta of constantly pushing to see how close you can get as a DPS. Part of me really missed the Nexus/Dox days where you could hang out in the back with the troll and healer and pay attention to mechanics and just bang away great ranged dps without getting pooped on by the guy who snuck up to 12 meters and spammed some kind of 12-meter "melee" move. One of the things I dig about the revamp is that melee and ranged dps are close enough that, if you die up close, the dps lost is more than what you gained by walking up into harm's way.
    • Like x 2
  6. Johny Burst Active Player

    I'm all for electric and nature being top DPS, but it seems like a lot of other powers are pretty much obsolete. Powers such as HL, gadgets, and atomic have to consume massive amounts of power and still come short by a very considerable margin. Why even play such powers? Let me rephrase: why would anyone in the right mind even want these powers in their party if all they do is take power away and deal low damage?
    • Like x 6
  7. Rubsarb Level 30

    I agree on your point. I almost feel a simple solution would be what the devs implemented during the AM days but on a greater scale. Essentially, moves cast within a certain proximity of enemies do more damage. This would scrap the concept of melee vs. ranged moves (i.e. bow's explosive shot is inherently a ranged attack; however, if this combo is done in melee distance, it benefits from melee damage bonus).

    I think this approach would vastly solve the risk/reward issue people are discussing.


    On another note, the larger issue seems to relate to term everyone knows as "Flavor of the month". Instead of buffing certain powers or nerfing others, let's buff certain mechanics that UNIVERSALLY benefit all powers(case in point, my suggestion on risk/reward above). That way, STATS and knowledge of game mechanics are the main discussion points in how to push whatever powerset players are using to their maximum potential, not picking the most OP power currently.

    edited to fix some grammar issues, sorry :p
    • Like x 1
  8. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    100% agree!
  9. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    all powers are pretty close to on par whith skilled player after skilled player switching powers and always coming up with a score at the end of content with less than a million in damage between then the gaps are as close as they have ever been.

    if you think some powers can't compete the problem lies with the player and not knowing their power any longer and not skilled enough or knowledgeable enough to keep up.. same goes for people complaining that tanks do too much damage and beat DPS then those DPS suck has nothing to do with the tank being good

    take it from experience this revamp isn't perfect by any means but they did do a dang good job on bringing the powers back in line at least as close as they have been in a long time
  10. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    SMH, wrong sir. Please go and play sorcery or mental. Then switch to rage, earth, nature, or electric. More than half of the powers are close, yes, but not all.

    And my atomic tank accepts your challenge.
    • Like x 3
  11. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    well, we will have to agree to disagree because the only difference in powers beyond a few bugs that could be in place due to an update of this nature and numbers could be mistaken. are player driven ones if all powers are timed and balanced to time and effect and follow a set of rules and if those rules went to every power then by nature they are balanced. and in the right hands will be able to put out similar numbers. if there is an abuse it will be corrected.. but the idea that some are good and some are not just isn't true right now. I'll state again for prosperity most of the people in this game sucks and can't play with out some cookie cutter load out some youtube makes so I can't accept there OP cries when all i have seen by people that have played the game for years so know how to adapt all seem to be on par no matter what power they are using at the time through many runs.

    side note: the only part actually referring to you personally. my Atomic tank has always been able to do the same even way before the update. it has an advantage simply because it was designed as a battle tank were all of our pulls also are our main combo damage moves. Atomic is my main also and fav power since it came out. water will be hard pressed to replace it simply because i love the battle aspect of it I almost never go DPS just Hybrid battle tank all the time
  12. Swiftduck Loyal Player

    well if they didn't push so hard for hardlight to rely on clipping, it might actually put out decent numbers with out blowing through your entire power bar in one rotation.

    But no...they "had to choose":rolleyes:
    • Like x 1
  13. TestReporter Loyal Player

    Yeah, revamp all powers again, because why not? :rolleyes:
  14. Predicament Well-Known Player


    As I agree with you in powers being weak because players don't know their powers at all and just switch, I have a full grasp of my power set and it isn't one of the ones that is mentioned as "top" dps power. I have not lost to anyone in dps but the issue isn't really about numbers here and needing to top the charts. My issue the risk i put myself and the group in by being efficient and competitive with other power set is just not balanced. I fully understand what you are saying about people out there that dps that still don't understand how to dps and get beat by support roles. Im speaking on the behalf of the people that actually knows how to dps, not trying to come off arrogant, I will end up any where from 2nd to 4th place in dps as a troll, with the group not suffering from lack of power. i understand powersets that I play and dont play, there is an unfair advantage not in the numbers but the way those numbers are achieved through out different power sets. This revamp has made for the most balanced this game has ever been, but it isn't perfect. The powers that do have to work harder or require more risk should be rewarded. This also applies to abilities in power sets that have a melee component vs ranged. Example being electrics Electroburst vs Voltaic Blast, the amount of time to lunge in to burst and the risk of it being melee currently don't outweigh the effort, time and risk. Yes it does do more damage but the payout isn't worth it.
    • Like x 1
  15. Drathmor Unwavering Player

    I get where you're coming from as the whole risk vs reward issue has been a common one through out all the changes and I understand truly your point.

    yet saying that I also know and have seen so many changes that the devs made to try to create that risk vs reward model and it took the powers right down the path to unbalance every single time they do it. how it is now it truly the closest we can get in a game like this. by adding risk vs reward to the equation they would create cookie cutter load outs and a single way to play the power along potential for abuse as with any variable system.

    that's why they tried for the single rules for all powers and made it uniform as that way play style, doesn't matter as much. Putting your self at greater risk also makes you venerable you can squeeze out greater numbers like that but the drawback is you can die there by losing damage. the choice remains yours stay back and be constant or step in and do extra any change to give the risk an advantage would break all the work they have done in the last year building the revamp.

    know you won't agree but wanted to explain why RvR was thrown out except in terms on Melee hits harder than Range giving the same RvR but with out complicating the powers
  16. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    Let's take a step back for a moment. Consider the placement in all of this of the tank(s). They don't have much of a choice... they have to be right up under the boss's nose, in the middle of the adds, etc. One of my chief complaints as a tank is when everyone releases all of their backups, pets, sidekicks, etc, all at once because all it does is block me in and prevent me from escaping a boss's Big Hit (tm). Now you want to add to all of this the DPSes trying to get up next to the tank and add even more to the fray? I'll accept that if the tank has an innate ability to be able to get away from the boss in some way, shape, or form and leave everyone else there to their own demise, or has the ability to push all of these extra good guys away from him, disrupting their damage output as if they were hit by a boss or add but not damaging them, so he can get out and cleanse or do whatever mechanics are necessary to get the "contaminants" neutralized.

    Sorry but I've been blocked in far too many times by all of this and then gone down because I couldn't get away to cleanse or get out of the range of the attack... all because some DPSes decided to scoreboard chase (tends to be the most frequent reason, in my experience).

    Now, I will also admit that I've been with groups that have successfully timed their backups deployments such that as one set goes away, the next one comes in... but that requires communication.. you know... getting on mic and working together. But that's a totally separate discussion so please don't do it here.
  17. Predicament Well-Known Player

    Again this will always be tied to dps when issues are brought up about imbalances, dps are either told to stop chasing the scorecard or why do they suck so much from low numbers.... its pretty much what they have to deal with. Tanking is my favorite support role to play and I completely understand the frustration of being boxed from all the back ups and pets/sidekicks, it gets annoying really quick when you have to jump around them or try to get out. Blaming a dps for being efficient and knowing what to do for going melee as a scorecard chaser is unfair. Like DPS in general who range and don't know their powers. as a melee dps myself i position myself behind the boss, completely on the opposite side of tank. This is to prevent myself from receiving damage, and also staying out of the way of the tank. It is also the tanks job to turn the boss around and not face the group as well, examples of US flamethrower and other boss mechanics. Every MMO has a melee dps and they have always been the higher damage dealers and boss nukers. It's their job dps melee away from the tank. So if you feel that melee dps will crowd you even more thats a bit selfish, as for me when i tank I don't run into this issue, now if these DPS that melee are the ones at fault, you should blame them for not knowing mechanics and not doing their jobs, instead of being scorecard chasers. Every role in an MMO has responsibilities and jobs they are supposed to carry out thats beyond holding bosses attention, healing the group, giving power, and doing most damage possible. This game has really gone so far from teaching those things that, other roles blaming other roles for being efficient and doing more.
  18. Mighty Committed Player

    HL - probably the best full-range single-target burn in the game. It's an elite boss killer
    Gadgets - good mid-ranged damage, needs some help at full range though
    Atomic - best full-ranged AOE damage per second on three or fewer in the game, but people sleep on it

    If you bring two trolls who spec right and push power well, and if you spec right with your gear and generator mods, power is not an issue with any of these powersets (light may need the occasional cola for power on the single target rotation if you go 30+ seconds nonstop, which is rare most boss fights).
    • Like x 1
  19. Mighty Committed Player

    Some powers (like your favorite, sorcery, for example) play much better as weapons expert, or with some kind of weapon combo rotation in either hybrid or superpowered. Generally, though, if you're going to use some weapons stuff, you're going to want 300+ skillpoints to really get the bang for your buck. The pftt might spec for low skillpoint guys is a double-edged sword. Some powers (combos, muni) can't really utilize weapon combos in their rotations for a number of reasons, and so these powers really only have a might-centric option, and so they cap out on their dps stats much earlier when placing skillpoints, whereas weapon-friendly playstyles don't hit this wall.
    • Like x 2
  20. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Tell me about it. Died twice running US lately because I couldn't move away from the stupid bomb reticle thanks to the 9 henchmen all giving me a big hug, lol, and the rage dps who wanted to say hi too.