Today is a happy day for DC fans and comic book fans... Zack Snyder's Justice League

Discussion in 'Joker’s Funhouse (Off Topic)' started by Helderman, May 20, 2020.

  1. Helderman Dedicated Player

    2,5 years ago artistic integrity was suffocated in favor of corporate greed, but today justice was served

    This is a victory for creative freedom
    A victory for artistic integrity
    A victory for the art of filmmaking

    Director's cuts are nothing new but what happened today was a feat achieved by passionate fans of art.

    Zack Snyder's Justice League, coming in 2021, only on HBO Max

    https://twitter.com/jasonkilar/status/1263169213557911562

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    • Like x 3
  2. DCUO Post Loyal Player

  3. Zoe· Loyal Player

    I will probably watch it if it get released online (HBO isn't available where I live), but I'm really just happy people can move on from this now.
    I want DC To focus on other movies and things now.
    • Like x 2
  4. Controller Loyal Player

    This thing is trending all over...

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/20/media/snyder-cut-hbo-max-justice-league/index.html

    The fact that it took hardcore fans to practically BEG them to release this is a crying shame.

    Warner Bros / DC CU sitting back on their laurels, after Joker unexpectedly made a lot of money. Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Shazam did well, too.

    But they have FAILED miserably when it comes to Marvel.



    Warner Bros or whomever is responsible for their movies ought to be ashamed of themselves, they really should. But I doubt they care.
  5. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    I don’t understand why people are hating on the Snyder cut. DC needs to just stick with it and develop the universe as intended or else we are stuck with movies that don’t live in the same universe. Like you can’t have Christian Bale Batman in the same universe as the Man of Steel Superman, even Christopher Nolan agrees with that, that’s why Bane didn’t even have venom. Snyder’s movies are beautiful and gives us something 10 times better than Marvel, if it can just play out. DC shot themselves in the foot with the Whedon cut and now they have no cohesive direction. I’m hoping with the release of this it will generate enough interest that they will let Snyder finish his other two justice league movies so we can finally move on with a cohesive universe.
    • Like x 1
  6. MrMigraine Devoted Player

    #ReleaseTheWhedonCut

    :D
    • Like x 1
  7. Controller Loyal Player

    They did - and it's called the Marvel Cinematic Universe.....where just about EVERY SINGLE movie they've put out is gold, follows a COHERENT story line, has compelling heroes, heroines AND villains, AND is already moving into a different phase.

    Meanwhile - in the DC cinematic universe.....

    [IMG]

    When I was in the Navy, they had a term for DC Cinematic Universe....

    [IMG]
  8. willflynne Unwavering Player


    DC shot themselves in the foot with Man of Steel advertising leaning heavy on the message of hope and Superman inspiring hope and then delivering possibly the most dour, glum and least inspirational version of Superman to make it to any screen. They didn't help themselves by basically doubling down on that with BvS, which made it a lot tougher to feel much of anything when he was killed in the film.

    Snyder is a good filmmaker, but he wasn't the right steward for the direction of DC's cinematic universe. Dark and gritty may work for parts of DC, but not all.
  9. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    Man of Steel is the making of Superman, he’s not fully formed yet, that’s why he doesn’t think about things like property damage or dead set against killing. Same with Batman it’s about him losing his humanity and trying to find a way back. They are both finding their way. The Justice League would have been the closer versions of the characters you know but not fully. You wouldn’t know them as the characters they are today until he finished his 5 movie series. It took a long time to get Superman and Batman where they are today and Snyder is just giving us that journey. I mean the first Superman didn’t even fly and the first Batman carried a gun and shot gangsters.
  10. willflynne Unwavering Player


    If it takes 5 movies to get what is arguably the most recognized and oldest superhero on the block to the characterization he is best known for, it makes the case that you've already lost that particular race before you've run it.
    • Like x 2
  11. Controller Loyal Player

    I just personally wish they'd let Zach Snyder, Ava Duvernay, and whomever directed the Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Shazam movies make the REMAINDER DC movies.

    Let THOSE FIVE collaborate. I trust them. They seem to actually care.

    Fire / remove everyone else with a hand in the cookie jar.

    Let THOSE five run the show....and if a movie goes OVER 2 hours - let it.
    • Like x 1
  12. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    You’re talking about a guy that is treated as a God, just being good because he feels like it. That’s not reality ,if history has shown us anything it’s that power corrupts, as a matter of fact that’s a common theme is in Snyder’s movies and even in Nolan’s movies. Watchmen and the show The Boys are great depictions of what people that have that kind of power would do, that’s why they are so good to watch. If you want Superman to exist in reality then he has to have a long character arch. If you just want to see stuff blow up and laugh then watch Marvel. I like Marvel movies but if you want to watch movies that make you think, then watch Snyder’s movies. He’s trying to give us something different but still good. But speaking of long arch’s just look and Tony Stark and Captain America their arch’s spanned 10 years of movies and they were very different people from when they started. Long arch’s are what keep people interested in the characters. If you just get the Superman you know day 1 then he becomes 1 dimensional and everyone loses interest and he just becomes a supporting character of more interesting characters.
  13. willflynne Unwavering Player


    He's not good because he feels like it. Superman is the good person he is because of his upbringing by the Kents. Which brings up yet another decision that feels like a huge misstep. After all, with parents like these...

    From Man of Steel:

    Clark: What was I supposed to do, let them die?

    Jonathan:....maybe.

    From BvS:

    Martha: Be their hero, Clark. Be their monument, be their angel, be anything they need you to be. Or be none of it. You don't owe this world a thing.

    Yeah, thanks mom and dad. :rolleyes:

    If someone wants deconstructed versions of characters like Superman? Well you named two really good sources. You don't need to do that to make Superman interesting, and what's worse is that it can be argued that they didn't even do a good job of doing a deconstructive take on Superman.

    The shadow of the Reeve films still loom large because they got it. Both Christopher Reeve and Chris Evans (maybe it's a Chris thing, I don't know? LOL) showed that you can do "boy scout" style characters while still making them believable and relatable.

    I've said more than once that Snyder is a good filmmaker. His work on Watchmen was great and I don't doubt he was trying to give folks something different. But I can't say that what he gave us in MoS and BvS was good. After all, when Doomsday makes his appearance on-screen and my first thought wasn't, "Oh crud this is bad news" but instead was "They have a cave troll!" it's tough to make the case it's a good movie. And I wish I was saying that as a snarky after-the-fact kind of comment, but the "cave troll" line was honestly the first thing I thought when I saw Doomsday.

    I don't have much faith in the idea that his vision of Justice League is somehow going to justify or redeem those two movies.
    • Like x 1
  14. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    I think deconstructed is a little far from what we got. I love Christopher Reeves, it’s a classic but come on he’s flying around the world to turn back time, kissing Lois makes her forget who he is, he rips off his S and it’s a net. That’s pretty revisionist of the classic Superman character. Everything Snyder has done is from the comics other than probably the Martha moment ( which I think was clever). I would say he’s probably the best steward of comic book material in film their is out there today. I think it’s a fair critique of Doomsday, I wasn’t a big fan of the BvS Luthor. But we still have Superman that we know, and killing Zod or dodging a gas tanker doesn’t mean he’s out of character especially since he has killed in comics before and I’m sure he dodges explosive material regularly. I mean he reluctantly killed Zod which is a direct scene from the comics and in character. Jim Lee even helped him write the movies. I think it’s fair to criticize the movie but you can’t say we don’t have the Superman we know unless you re using the Reeves movie as your source material. He’s the best version I’ve ever seen and the most comic accurate. I grew up watching the Superman movies I mean they are the reason we have superhero movies today but that film maker wasn’t particularly interested in maintaining material from the comic when he wrote it. Snyder’s plan to my understanding was to give us a 5 movie arch that ended with a flashpoint event that would let other film makers take their character in whatever story direction they wanted. The point is establishing a tone and universe that can make it all cohesive. Like it was real touch and go for Marvel for a while until Avengers came out as a success. After Avengers Marvel was able to take bigger risks like Guardians and Ragnarok but that tone and success had to be set first in order to get to that point. So Snyder was taking all the risk establishing tone giving us a cohesive universe so others that follow him can make what they want. I don’t think anyone can argue what WB did to him was horrendous, they not only destroyed his vision of his movie without him knowing, they did it while he mourned the loss of his daughter, they actually used the death to justify their reshoots. Those WB guys are sick in the head. The made so many actors upset about the change that Ben Afleck quit his Batman movie Ray Fishburn quit and Henry Cavil nearly quit. I’m excited to see the difference between these two movies and like I said before I hope he can finish it soon so DC can move on with new stuff and expand the universe.
  15. willflynne Unwavering Player


    Um, have you read any of the weird-as-all-get-out pre-Crisis Superman stories out there? A lot of the stuff from the Reeve films (George Reeves played Superman in the old TV series, causes a lot of confusion so I point out the Reeve/Reeves thing automatically at this point LOL) that you mentioned would fit right in with those stories. :D Yes it's odd and seems inconsistent, but it wouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility to have seen things like that in the comics.

    But I can't agree with Snyder being a great steward of comics. Something that was pointed out in moviebob's Really That Bad series done on BvS in talking about Snyder was an interview where it seemed as though Snyder's introduction to comic stories was things like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns. Not bad stories, after all they HAVE stood the test of time. But from all indications he seems to think that's how all stories should be. If that is indeed the case then there's some question about how good of a steward he might be because that ignores everything that came before it and any stories afterwards that don't fit into that particular mold. moviebob goes into better detail on it that I do, so if for no other reason than some food for thought I'd recommend checking out at least part 3 of that Really That Bad series on YouTube to see his take on it.

    And just for clarification's sake, it's not merely a bashing of BvS to bash it. It's an exhaustive critique of the film and the only Really That Bad he's ever done (he's done quite a few Really That Good videos from The Matrix to Star Wars to Ghostbusters and yes, the original Reeve film). Also, it's not done merely as an exercise to run down Snyder, as he has respect for Snyder as a filmmaker and mentions early in part one that he had some serious second thoughts about putting the first part out there so soon after the family tragedy the Snyders suffered. Plus there's some genuinely funny stuff in there; his shorthand descriptions of various characters in both the Marvel and DC films when comparing them are funny and creative (Space Viking for Thor, Beatnik Vegeta for Zod are a couple examples lol). I'd recommend at least part 3 to see the Snyder stuff, but if you're willing to go fully down that rabbit hole I should warn you that each part runs over an hour. :confused:

    One last thing that was brought up in moviebob's latest Big Picture video on the Escapist that should be some food for thought for everyone: with it being "entirely new" there stands to be a good chance that what gets delivered isn't THE Snyder cut, but rather A Snyder cut. It's been a few years and with as creative as Snyder can be, there's no guarantee that what he delivers is going to be the same as what he intended to deliver originally.

    Oh and the Martha bit? Clever idea? Maybe. Lousy execution? Definitely, otherwise it wouldn't have become so subject to ridicule since.
  16. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    I just read he is doing no re shoots just some added voice over. It IS the Snyder cut except because the format he may actually leave more in than was designed for a theater. I guess you have to try and caveat it getting released with it being different so if it’s good you can say he had time to change it. It’s probably going to have all the same action scenes just a better flow and story. So in that way it’s a whole new version than Whedon but if you judge a movie by the action scenes then it will be the same in your eyes. I don’t know why you want me to listen to some guys critique of the movie that’s not your critique, I mean watch a positive critique of the movie and see who has the most valid points. Listen to both sides. To me the hate just boils down to people loving Bale and Reeves and they can’t see anyone else in those rolls so they trash the whole movie because of it.
    I don’t know what you mean by the Martha moment potentially being clever but poorly executed. I mean the Martha moment is the execution, it’s the moment Batman realizes Superman has a mother and he is a person just like him. The whole first part he’s like do you bleed, men are brave you’re not a man, he de humanizes Superman to justify killing him, and then boom that all comes crashing down in that moment when he realizes he’s a guy that just wants to save his mom. It’s brilliant I don’t know how it could have been executed better.
  17. Wildcat Well-Known Player

    Aflleck Baffleck should come back to play Batman ;)
    • Like x 1
  18. willflynne Unwavering Player


    Here's the thing though, we can't know for sure. Artistic decisions aren't always set in stone, and there's a better-than-decent chance that in the years since JL was started that Snyder may have had some different ideas to work with. Moreover, new voice-overs doesn't necessarily mean things can't change. One line changed here or there even in voice over can make all the difference, just ask irate anime fans about that with changes between the original Japanese and a line inserted by a dub company in the US. And even if all that doesn't convince you, there's four words that can come to mind (for good or ill, depending on perspective): Star Wars Special Editions. :D

    As for why I'd look at someone else's critique of the film, whether it's good or bad? I've found that it's something that helps me clarify my own thoughts on the matter. The thoughts and perspectives of someone else at times will sometimes strike a chord with me and make me think, "yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to articulate." Other times they may put forth an idea or line of thought that makes me say, "no, I think they're kind of off-base on that one." Heck, if we weren't having this discussion I wouldn't be pushed into articulating and organizing my thoughts in my responses, and in forum discussions like this I can take a LONG time making a post because I want my thoughts to be as clear and straight-forward as I can make them.

    Side note, one day I'll time myself to see how long it actually takes me to write out one of my more extensive forum posts. But I'm a little afraid to see how long that'd actually be. LOL

    For whatever it's worth, I don't hang myself up much over actor performances in the role. The Christopher Reeve performance is always going to loom large, so I keep that in mind. But both Timothy Daly and George Newbern did great jobs as the animated voices of Superman, Dean Cain did a decent job in the original Lois and Clark and seeing Brandon Routh reprising his version of Superman during the Crisis TV event really impressed me. So it's not like it's a "no one can measure up to Reeve" situation for me. But Cavill never impressed me as either Clark OR Superman, which was driven home all the more when a relatively brief clip of Tyler Hoechlin showing his version of Superman for the Supergirl series made me think, "yup, he's got it right" without much hesitation.

    As for Batman? Affleck did a decent job, I had no problems with his performance. But I think my top Batmen are going to be (in no particular order) Keaton, Conroy, Diedrich Bader (Brave and the Bold) and Kilmer. Bale did NOT impress me enough in Batman Begins to even want to see the follow-ups.

    Finally, the Martha scene comes down to something that was a whole section unto itself in one of the three parts of the Really That Bad series. moviebob called it "Intent versus Execution," and he elaborated on that in part two specifically looking at the "Save Martha!" bit. It's at the 44:49 mark of part two and worth a look (don't quite feel safe posting the video, moviebob isn't afraid of four letter words and I never know how that's going to be received here LOL). But I feel that if the scene had been executed as well as you say, it wouldn't be so easily subjected to ridicule and derision and it might have actually helped the film.
  19. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    We don’t talk about the Star War special additions here, they never happened lol. But speaking of Star Wars, I fail to see your foundational problem with the movie BvS like I would see in say the Star Wars Prequels. I have a problem with the Star Wars prequels because of the choice to make Anakin so young adds to a significant problem for all three films. Like this implies the Jedi steal children from their parents all the way to the point you have Anakin killing the kids, and George Lucas apparently forgetting this character finally gets redeemed in Return of the Jedi, and I don’t particular want to see child murders get redeemed. So this choice even effects the outcome off all subsequent movies afterwards. Hence foundational reason I dislike the prequels. Now I’m not trying to argue the merits of the prequels I know some people grew up with them and love them, I’m just giving an example of a foundational issue with the film that destroys much of the underlying plot.
    I like this version of Superman and there have been some film makers that have wanted to make a dark and gritty Superman like Tim Burton wanted his Superman to wear all black and not be able to fly. Now that’s gritty. In Snyder’s film MOS Superman’s emblem literally means hope and that’s kind of the theme of the Man of Steel. The humans see no hope so they turn him over to Zod they even shoot at him as an enemy until they finally learn to trust him and begin to have hope they can win and not be obliterated. Now Snyder had a problem with BvS because it’s based off of the Dark Knight Returns and in that Superman is essentially a government puppet and its towards the end of the superhero era. Snyder is trying to give us the fight from Dark Knight Returns but has to establish a different reason, so in a way he flipped it to where Batman is more in the wrong than Superman. Snyder is also really good about giving reasons why things happen using a realistic world. Like notice how when Lois falls from something high Superman doesn’t just zoom in there at 100 mph and grab her from the bottom after she has fallen 50 stories already, which is what happened in the Christopher Reeves films. No Superman comes above Lois and slows her descent while talking to her because any other way and she would have been killed by the abrupt stop. So the Martha moment is also like that it gives a reason why Batman would not kill Superman. I guess people just want the fight to happen then have Batman just have a change of heart when faced with the decision. That’s not realistic though, he’s says it’s the most important thing he will ever do, he sets himself on this mission and nothing was going to stop him except the one thing he never expected and that was to hear the name of his mother, so initially it’s what would mom think of me doing this, which stayed his hand then ultimately realizing Superman has a mother too. It was abrupt and shocking for Batman but shows his determination in things and that he’s not all wishy washy about his decisions in life, which I guess is a hard concept for people today to understand. That’s the kind of nuance that makes me go back to the film and enjoy seeing things I didn’t pick up on before. I mean yeah not all people like movies that arent tied up in nice little bows, people like that bubble gum and there’s nothing wrong with that but you can’t hate a movie just because not everyone gets it. It’s good to not get it right away it makes you think and rewatch it. Dude I’m telling just watch any positive commentary on BvS and you will be blown away at the detail you missed and Snyder’s brilliance. I’m not trying to say you can’t dislike some part of it but it’s a pretty rich film and definitely makes me want to see his cut of the Justice League.
  20. willflynne Unwavering Player


    To briefly touch on the Star Wars, I never really thought of Vader's decision and actions at the end of ROTJ as his redemption. He was saved from the Dark Side by Luke (it's right there in the dialogue as Vader/Anakin passes away) but he never got the chance to redeem himself for his actions as Vader. I can see where you're coming from on that, though.

    Part of it is that point from the moviebob video series, intent versus execution. It's entirely possible to read everything you are saying about that sequence in the film (and note, I haven't refuted any of that reading) but if the execution in trying to relay that story beat or point is lousy then all that thought and effort becomes for naught. To kind of paraphrase some of moviebob's points from the segment I mentioned in my last post, if someone watches that whole sequence leading up to and including "Save Martha!" and only comes away with the thought of, "Oh yeah, their moms DO have the same name!" then you've missed what you're trying to express. It's a distraction that can both take away from the point trying to be expressed in the film AND take the viewer out of the moment, and keeping the viewer engaged in the story is a pretty big part of that kind of performance.

    And that's another part: the movie had a habit of taking me out of the moments they were trying to create. When I keep having MST3K-style moments where a snarky/funny comment or pop culture reference comes to mind instead of staying engaged with the story and the moment/feeling/message they're trying to send, they've lost me and my interest. As soon as I had the "They have a cave troll!" line pop in my head, my engagement in the subsequent fight was GREATLY diminished. I didn't walk out in disgust or anything like that, but it was pretty similar to the feeling I had watching Speed when the bus made the jump over the huge gap in the freeway: it was just really tough to care about the movie after that point.

    I don't need every super hero movie I watch to be a Marvel film. But what I do want is for it to be good, and BvS wasn't that, despite how much I wanted it to be at least decent. And it doesn't help when comparisons like this can be made.



    I checked it for language before posting, so we're all good there. LOL

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