Time to get rid of stat clamping

Tiff, it's nonsense TO ME.. As I responded to Deity, I've never really said that phrase...but I don't say anyone isn't feeling that way, cause I don't know your feelings or how you like to play the game. I also think a lot of the dress up aspect or people having 'new 52' or other variant 'comic accurate' worries about their toon's appearance is nonsense, but hey....I let them do their thing.

NOW....your example of the WV solo, sorry....solo runs are a bad example of losing that feeling, as most solos have changed very little if you don't get hung up on the numbers.. Personally in the WV solo, I still feel very powerful...I tear through there in 2-3 min on almost any powerset, I doubt it would be much faster even unclamped (but can't test it as it's not in 'casual'). I'd generally stick to raids for examples of where you feel less powerful, since...well...that's the biggest stuff we have (OW bounties aside). I'm not diminishing your feelings in the solo...just saying maybe some raid examples would resonate better with more people. I know for me, something like Sub construct where I used to be able to walk in and complete it solo in 10-15 or so min, going to 20+ with a full group definitely would make me feel 'less powerful'...more than a solo anyway.

And better be careful or the 'People's bad guy' will come after you for pinching his calling card.

YIKE?!

Sowwry Owlman!

I didn't join the stat clamp discussions anywhere else. This is my first thread about this. What I did was stating my own opinion, and different people can have different opinions. Please do not generalize.

Now, I have an idea to propose. Since some may concern that their efforts doing the challenging feats will become worthless if the unclamp allows people to do those feats easier. What if we have a new trophy/feat entitlement list attached to the players which contain the list of feats they have achieved (legitimately) with the 'clamped' option or within the 3-current story arcs period, while feats completion with the 'unclamped' option can get only the feat points. Also, the entitled feats list can be inspected by other players (e.g., for skill checking purpose). If the players got the feat points already with the unclamped mode, but later they also want the entitlement for completing those feats 'legitimately', they can always come back and complete it in the clamped mode. Anyway, It's not needed to be applied to all kind of feats, for example, the bounty counter feats can't determine the player's skills at all, thus may not need to be attached with the trophy/entitlement.

How to implement this in practice? The feats that achieved after the clamp until now can get the entitlements immediately. Of course, the unentitled feats will be achieved after this system executed. Now, the 'grey' area is how to determine the feats that achieved before the clamp, since some might have done it when the content freshly came out, while some might complete later with unclamped advantages. I'm not sure if the time-tracker for the feats works for this purpose? and how long the time/cr gap improvements after the next ep came out should be determined whether they completed with the unclamped advantages or not? (e.g., anything longer than the 3 current dlcs/Eps might be defined as having unclamped advantage). Personally, I don't mind at all let's just give all those pre-clamp feats entitled. Not a big deal.

Again, this is only MY opinion and idea (that popped in my head while having a coffee break), and It's open for people to criticize whether they agree with it or they can think it's just a dumb idea, depends on each perspective.

Unlike the anti clamp side, the pro clampers have been pretty transparent about believing feats should be trivialized. Not sure where you got the idea that pro clamps were hiding behind something when this is something. That has been stated multiple times.

There are enough feats in the game that there is no reason every single feat should be allowed be trivialized because some feel a sense of entitlement.

How exactly is it gate keeping? No one is saying feats should remain as difficult as they were when they came out. Feats do get easier. Progress and get stronger and they become easier. As it should be.

I just find it funny that you pick and choose what to point out while completely ignoring the other ones who are the actually one shouting BS and hiding behind excuses.

I say hiding behind, because a lot of discussion FOR it was around not being able to get into runs, not being able to complete runs (Due to 'all' the glitchable bosses), the 'woah for the new players' who were left behind as a goon ran to the end or discussions of earning that unlimited loot. All pretty much a smoke screen for 'you gots to earn those feats....you know the same feats we didn't earn over the preceding 8 years'..

It's gate keeping because why would it matter if anyone else got a feat for less effort? If they rolled all regular feats into casual runs, how does that impact you? It doesn't....tha'ts why it's gate keeping or pocket watching or whatever. Personally I only draw the line at giving them away....there should be SOME effort to get into, learn how a feat works and then execute on it...even if that execution is much easier than when it was new. No death and speed feats I suppose could be considered 'given' at that point, but those account for very little of the total out there. 'Trivialized'? I could say the same thing about running with a fully geared group of max cr/arti/sp leaguemates going after many of the same feats. Not a lot of challenge there.

It figures. "I'm already running with cheaters. Make 90% of content trivial, so that I don't have to worry about getting banned." Lol...

I've been playing on EU server for 3 years - mostly PUGing - and I have seen maybe half a dozen speed-hackers in that time. Needless to say, either the hacker, or I never stayed around long enough for me to find out whether or not they would glitch anything. It's curious, that you managed to have been in "many" such groups and that you finished so many instances that way, that now you can speak with authority on whether or not excessive DPS causes glitches.

Power creep breaks the game. It breaks pretty much all MMORPG's.

Not sure where Fluffy plays, but as a USPS/PC player I can tell you they come and go, but there are a lot more than 6 of of them. Come this new DLC next week they will likely be out again, doing OW boss counts over multiple phases to get the 20, 50 or 100 counts done in night 1. I don't see them as much in endgame content (I think they stick to closed groups or now. maybe will do private queues), but they will appear at random in event runs too. The anniversary raids were rife with them.

Lol... This is hilarious. "Sure, some old bosses glitched out due to high damage, even before we had 700 000 Might and 5 artifacts, BUT THERE'S NO WAY it would happen again, as stats keep rising - because I said so." I don't know how you can even keep making this silly argument with a straight face. You have no idea what would or wouldn't glitch without stat clamp at this point, unless - like some of your anti-clamper friends in this thread, apparently - you've done extensive "testing" using speed-hacks. The possibility of game-breaking glitches in content designed for 1% of your current stats is as realistic as ever - no matter how much you try to dismiss it.

It's interesting, that you completely omit some other arguments made by "pro-clampers". Like when we told you, that adding unclamped option to further divide diminishing populations would have negative effects on queue/LFG times. That turned out to be true, not that you'd ever admit it. Just ignore it.

And it's always been made clear by pro-clamp majority - people shouldn't be able to cheese feats, just because they're older. So I don't know how you can be clutching your pearls, talking about "smoke screens". Come off it.

You've been told why it would matter many times, just by me alone. You just choose to ignore that and plow on with the same claims.

I want to play the game and run those feats - and I have been doing so for the past 3 years. If everybody could just go and farm 90% of all feats solo in a weekend - well, then I'd have way fewer people to play with, wouldn't I? Sure - I could just go and do the same cheese as everybody else and have 900+ SP, but that wouldn't be playing a game. I can only feel sorry for people, who would feel satisfied by such pedestrian achievements. You can call that "gatekeeping", but a good game should reward skill and effort, not just the fact, that someone stuck around long enough for the game to take pity on them and give them the trophy.

The bottom line is - thanks to the clamp, this game managed to keep my attention for longer than it ever could before. If I could cheese old content, I'd have been done with DCUO after maybe a year. It's possible to get most feats, despite the clamp and low populations, if someone puts their mind to it. And if others don't want to try so hard - they don't need all those SP and wouldn't benefit from them if they got them.

Same server as the one I play on. Which you'd know, if you read their post.

Again, none of that has ever been smoke and mirrors. We’ve been pretty transparent that there were multiple reasons why a clamp was needed.

New player experience is important whether you believe it or not. Heck I’ve seen a video of someone trying warframe for the first time. And the new player didn’t get to do anything during one of the missions since by the time he got his bearings the boss was already dead and he got a notice to head to extraction. Yes that was a different game. But that sentiment still stands. New players should be able to experience the instances without having a single player go in and trivialize everything.

Another reason is also that glitches do happen due to being so much stronger than the enemies. You even acknowledged that you had to be careful not to glitch them and you can do it without glitching the boss. This in itself is terrible game design. There is absolutely no excuse for a game to expect players to have to play around not glitching enemies. It may not happen all the time but if the common source of the glitches are being to overleveled than the clamp helps with that.

Yet another reason is that games should offer points of challenges to encourage players to improve and give them a goal to work towards. You said it yourself. There should be some effort into getting them. Learn how a feat works and execute them. Even if that means they are easier much later. That’s LITERALLY how it works with the clamp. You get more stats and they get easier. You get OP gear and it’s even easier. What anti clampers are asking for is to be able to go in stop on the bosses and get the feats with no effort. As you said, there SHOULD BE SOME EFFORT. No feat should be as difficult to get as when they are released. And you know what? They ALL get easier as time passes.

I'm talking about the fact that there were supposedly all these unavoidable 1 tap glitched bosses out there...that were 'impossible' to get around without glitching. And I'm saying that's BS. I never said that glitches didn't happen, or that continuous stat growth couldn't cause a new one...just said (many times) that any boss you could point out could be glitched, I had beaten without glitching it prior to the clamp. I didn't need an artificial system to make me situationally aware of what would happen if I dropped a nuke on an anthill.

And as far as unclamped splitting the community, are you trying to say the the current state of the game, queue times and say....LFG traffic is because everyone is running unclamped runs? And not the fact the game is just sliding off into the abyss? Ok...keep that thought...I'm sure it's the 1000's of unclamped runs that is making queuing NUR take 40+ min on reset night. You betcha.

Again...why do you care if some guy who started 2 weeks ago has 800 or 900 SP from 'easy' feats? Who cares if everyone has high SP? First off....at least everyone could stop complaining about the 'low sp' players and just realize that some players are just bad...it has nothing to do with their stats. Are you angry about people who'd buy their way to top gear vs grinding it out? Or use gold sellers to get what they need from the broker vs hustling the money in game? Who cares? Oh...yeah...you cares.

Some of you folks really need to MYOB. Y'all like that nosey neighbor on Bewitched...Mrs Kravitz

Didn't care that much to go back to the original, and you didn't quote that part. If it were pertinent, you should have left it in the quote.

Trivialize....you seem to like that word. Again, I'll have to jump in a run with you and your gang and some of the other 'lete players and see how non trivial some of the feats are. I suppose if they end up being too easy you should give them back...right? Hell, I've got a few toons that still don't have the feat for jumping WW's pulse in CT....guess that makes hopping over it 1 time a 'difficult' feat, right?

So in a pure clamped run...you feel that a low..never been in there...player is getting a good, full experience if grouped with 6 or 7 other end game players, just there for quick loot? Hmmm. that's an opinion I suppose. Guess if they landed in one of those USR spam runs we used to be so fond of till a few months ago...well....I'm sure they had fun though.

And 'Effort' does not mean pew pew necessarily. I know that DPS brain of yours doesn't understand that, but sometimes effort means pumping the brakes, co-ordinating with the team or doing things in an unnatural order. Again, I said learning the feats and how they work first. Execution is just a varying degree of time and burn...with the exception of speed or no death feats. I'd rather have someone who knows how to do something like the 'right tool' feat in NGN, or the 'harmonic' feat in LnW, but got them during unclamped vs someone who gets the speed feat in CAUE clamped because they are running with a full endgame made group run. Some take knowledge and understanding....some take Pew Pew Pew. You seem to think 'effort' only equals pew pew pew.

I can't believe we are having this whole discussion again. Hilarious.

Why is it 0% or 100% with you? There is in between.

In a none clamped instances players could defeat a boss within seconds. This would cause some of the mechanics to not happen and auto grant feats that they never did. This is trivialize. That is 0%. When a new feat comes out it’s difficult. The longer a fight takes the more times a mechanic will happen that can cause the feat to fail. That’s 100%. As it goes into EEG they start to get easier. As more time passes the easier they get. The overall difficulty won’t ever get to 0% because of the clamp. But it never goes back to 100% which it shouldn’t.

So in a clamped instances a brand new player will have a higher chance of learning then if it were not clamped. This is for the very simple fact that a boss is not killed in seconds making the new player not learn anything. You’d think it would be common sense that a new player would learn something by experiencing it first hand. If they never experience it than how will they even know they missed out on something? They didn’t even get a chance to learn. So common sense says new players having to play the game would help them learn more.

And cute assumption that I have a “DPS brain”. I’ve literally played every single power and every role. I also wait for the tank instead of chasing the scoreboard. So not sure why you would make any kind of assumption. I also never stated that players shouldn’t hold back on burn or anything similar. What I said is players shouldn’t be required to actively avoid causing bugs. This is terrible game design. No amount to twisting words will change this. If a feat requires players to slow burn in order to complete the feat than that’s what players should do. That’s part of learning how to do feats and earning that feat. If someone is not capable of doing that, why should they get that feat? But they shouldn’t have to hold back to stop the game from breaking. Not sure why that is so difficult to comprehend. Slowing down on burn to complete a feat is by design. Slowing down to prevent things from breaking is idiotic.

I dont intend to run with cheaters, nor does it happen often, but there are many out there in EU that have no name on PC and just speed hack in omni. Do i leave the instance? No, no one does, can i report them? no because they literally have no name. no symbols no nothing. Accusing me of running with hackers constantly and making it seem like thats why i want stuff to be easier is a stupid way of looking at it. All you do is come to the forum and throw round stupid accusations and start arguments when someone disagrees with you, grow up

Don't know if I've been ignored or not but as long as this thread allows me to post a reply, I will continue to output my opinion regardless. So, for each of your point:

1. Yes, new player's experience is important, and they can experience and adequately learn it with the 'active' current 3 story arcs rather than having to que/LFG endlessly for 5 yrs old dead contents each instance one-by-one.

2. It's true that games with a glitch possibility is a terrible design. It's also true that games with no support system for new players and let them stuck with absurdly nearly unreachable gaps to EG is a terrible design. Now devs have to weigh do they want glitch prevention while keeping those players stuck OR find a better solution for those glitching issues while helping those players at the same time.

3. For the rewards to encourage players to challenge, hopefully the suggestion from my previous post could help? In my opinion, a good game design should not allow the stat gaps to affect player's performance in such contents 'too much'. Player's skill should be mainly determined by how well they can cope/perform in contents, ex. good situational awareness, quick and accurate finger control, right-timing dps/consumables/trinkets, suitable LO in specific scenarios, etc. Now with the current situation, the high gap sp furtherly brings imbalance among new and old players due to the big stats difference on top of the pure player's skill. With the feats entitlement list (I suggested) along with unclamp, the stat gaps between players can be reduced, while the pure player's skill reflecting their true performance still remained to be determined by having to achieve the entitlements.

I've seen you keep posting about how easier the clamped runs can get overtime when you gets stronger. It might be true, but the question is stronger to what extent? Let's say we started at 100% difficulty level, when we get 10 more sp (from doing like 20+ feats) and add them to might for example, how easier can it be? I guess it's not even below 95% level considering that stats inc. might be also clamped. Also, when you mentioned about this, don't forget there're always other factors associated with the dead/old contents like making a group, etc. which hugely affect the completion time itself. Also, what I've noticed is one topic that pro-clamps always avoid/ignore is about the pre-clamp period and what happened with feats grinding during that time, although it has been mentioned several times in this thread.

Oh, apologies, no the meme wasn't to address your point, I just also found it funny

Oh, you can report him, they have logs on everything. Just give Cs the time date an instance and pretty much what their name looked like like "IlIllIIllllI" and I'm sure a game master can investigate that.

I said 'DPS brain' because you seem to think that only burn=effort. Honestly there were plenty of feats that were HARDER considering we had OP burn...even without glitchy bosses. And bruh.....I've queued into runs with you. You chase plenty of scoreboard...skip mechanics and run ahead. Not every time, sure...but don't act all innocent of that dps mentality. It gets everyone at one time or another.


Cool...so can you tell me exactly what % things become 'trivial'? I'd guess somewhere between 1% and 99%? I just want to know so I can start a graph and if some feats pop too easy, I'll let you know so you can lobby to have them un-trivialized as you care so much about other people's effort in getting feats.

And no....idiotic is glitching the same bosses the same way over and over.. And from a LOT of the pro-clamp complainers I'd say we had a lot of those types running around. Thank god DCUO gave you all helmets so you'd quit bumping into sharp corners and hurting yourselves. Would it be cool if our game designers could figure a way to fix the issue with the bosses other than a clamp? Yeah, but we have what we have...so it likely won't happen.

BTW. Lest anyone believe I'm advocating for the clamp's removal...no...I am not. It did serve a purpose (getting me free loots), although it's main function appears to be making people 'earn' those feats. No problem...I have most of the ones I need, so It's really no concern of mine anymore. I got AQS and 'casual' mode (well 1/2 of the casual mode runs anyway), added now so I got what I had requested...although in somewhat the wrong order. I'd have preferred AQS first...as it would have solved most of the other issues. But we can't get everything....right?

Nothing will change the trajectory we are on now. Clamp, no clamp, a 4th and 5th artifact, ever increasing OP powers and allies (yeah....that overburn issue sure is worrying them), progress bars, 40 min intro missions, constant 'busy' work....we are on a set course...it's just a matter of how long the track runs before the brick wall....or cliff.