Throne of the Dead is un PUGable

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Dominic Blue, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. Harlequin Devoted Player

    DPS checks are not a new thing. I would be willing to bet that every MMO that uses a form of the trinity includes them in group content design mechanics. The issue here is that there are clear outliers in both extremes. There are obviously over-performing powers and clear losers in DCUO and it is that imbalance that is causing the problem, not the DPS check itself.

    Instead of asking for the content to be adjusted for the lowest common denominator, we should be demanding that all powers and specs (might or precision, including all weapons) be brought into relative parity with each other so that the threshold for success can be met no matter what composition the group uses, so long as the player has the skill to perform their role. That is the main problem with this game and it would require a major shift in design philosophy to fix.
  2. xxHELLSTROKExx Loyal Player

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you or znot but I think what he's trying to say needs clarification. We have always been told that the game would be balanced around having no/ low artifacts. What he is saying is that this raid (only one group testing really so wth) was balanced by a group using some of the strongest builds possible and then adjusted to their output. They are not the common playerbase. Yes, elites should be harder. Due to mechanics. Unless we as the player base have now decided that we want base elite balanced to all maxed builds/ meta following dynamics.

    Because this is how things will be, mechanics as a distant 2nd in importance to the "p2w" aspect that so many players complain about then turn around and force the devs to actually make it p2w.

    So we the player base need to make the call: do we want easy elites because artifacts and low sp are how its balanced or do we want harder where buying your way to power is the key. Make up our minds cuz the devs can't do both till we have multiple levels of difficulty
    • Like x 3
  3. lllStrichcodelll ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    i have never seen a dev saying that its getting balanced on low artifact levels. I couldve missed that tho wich is very likely. This could also be out of context if this was stated shortly after the release of artifacts - similar with allies right now.

    My point of view is, that you should have no struggle in elite with 3x 160 artifacts - apart from mechanics of course.
    Although 3x 160 is a lot, its not impossible to reach in a reasonable amount of time while f2p.

    Everything above that is just luxury and that gets reflected by the milestone breakthrough at 200.

    Something to also keep in mind is, that many players already have 3x 200 artifacts, so balancing content at 160's opens up the content for 3x 120's - for at least 1 or 2 players if the rest has 3x 200.
    • Like x 1
  4. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    So Lowest Common Denominator wins again.

    You know another way to NOT have pets/Allies heal the Essense? Don't bring out your pets or allies. Another way to not have it heal when hit by non-tanks?....don't hit it if you are not a tank.

    Thank god we got people had to learn how to play the game and follow mechanics? Then we add 'fixes' so they don't have to follow mechanics.
    • Like x 3
  5. xxHELLSTROKExx Loyal Player

    It's just a topic that comes up often enough and it's been stated that the attempt is to not have artifacts really tied into the difficulty level adjustments. Which clearly makes elites way too easy. But I've said it before and I'll say it again: tester packs. Testers open a box and it's a set level of artifact nth, gear, amd maybe even choice of artifacts. A healer that all of a sudden doesn't have eog or a troller without buff artis and suddenly asking for all that ares health doesn't seem that great or likely
    • Like x 1
  6. lllStrichcodelll ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    this also includes enemies, so you are able to tank adds and essence together now. Lowering the count of needed tanks to 2. 3 Tank set up is still viable tho in elite. Normal and event can be done by 1 tank now.
  7. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Normal and event were always able to be done with 1 tank. The other 7 players just needed to cover the adds as they came out of the doors. All players create agro, not just tanks. Tanks just have more by default...if they make contact with the adds. If a tank is on one side of the room with the Essense, and the others agro the adds, it worked fine. Again...this just makes it available to the LCD players.
    • Like x 2
  8. catplaysxoxo Loyal Player

    Everyone should just go tank in that raid lol
    • Like x 2
  9. zNot Loyal Player

    The issue with damage checks is that its purely about artifacts (p2win) which means you gotta have a buff troller and you gotta have high damage (overperforming gadgets being in the game will benefit from this even further).

    As dcuo is atm with the artifacts,meta dps powers i disagree that damage checks and any sort of dps centric design should be in elite raids. Since they arent a presentation of the skill of the support rolls and elite raids should be about the support rolls and difficult mechanics.

    Difficulty can be achieved more fair and equal with mechanics and high difficulty on support rolls as i said like block the boss attack or you will die as tank for example maybe even or having to do something as a tank no matter how OP your dps are in the group cant carry you with like something difficult maybe even make a elite raid so that theres a cap on the amount of damage that can be dealt to the bosses? To controll equal difficulty better ,This could also help vs speedhackers.

    Most of the meta is about doing as much damage as possible and a damage check simply feeds into this. Its not a healthy design if we the goal is to give people a challenge the actuall challenge is to find a buff troller with the max artifacts but only top end game leagues have acces to that and this gate keeps many actual skilled players from completing the content !
    • Like x 1
  10. zNot Loyal Player

    His HP got adjusted and good luck doing it without buff troller. Im sure the devs did not intend to do this.

    This health buff just proofed how powerfull buff trollers are and how top endgane leagues/groups/meta chasers have been bypassing difficulty by having x times more damage then other groups who attempt elite raids not just for this raid but in general and thats the issue the gap is just so large that any DPS centric design completly and only benefits the meta abusing groups and anyone that wants to do it without it feels the actuall difficulty and experiences the raid in a different level that was also probably intented to feel like.

    Maybe this „situation“ will infleunce ep.42 raid design for elite to avoid any dps designs and dps checks.
    • Like x 1
  11. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    So you are saying that pet power sets are not wanted in this instance? I'm sorry, but that is wrong thinking. Pets are a major part of damage, tanking, and healing, that it's unwise for them to design them out.

    Making pets, who's AIs are dumber than dirt and no control over what they do, not activate the heal was a fix not a nerf.

    The lowering of the heal from other players was a nerf. There is a big difference.
    • Like x 5
  12. Harlequin Devoted Player

    You're railing at the wrong windmill. DPS checks are completely fine. They are put in place as a gear and skill hurdle for damage dealers to overcome. What is not fine is leaving the sever imbalances present in DCUO as they are and then balancing those checks against the upper end of that ridiculously broad spectrum.

    I would also say that having a power-feeding/cc troll and a buff troll in an instance that is built around two of each role is completely fine. Armories are a thing.
    • Like x 1
  13. zNot Loyal Player

    If the game was balanced and this includes powers and artifacts damage checks would be acceptable i agree with you fully if they do damage checks to not set the bar that high in damage checks so that non buff trolling etc meta using groups can do it too but that bar would need to be like twice as low because the gap is that big if not even bigger.
    • Like x 1
  14. xxHELLSTROKExx Loyal Player

    I ran pet build in elite pre nerf. Yes I had to be careful but was 100% doable. Which means it was 100% doable in any level of difficulty. The reason we've always been told no pets was purely due to players not controlling or aiming properly. You have to position yourself and all that to not become a problem and most players weren't. The mechanic was fine imo but it's a softer game now vs back in the day so it is what it is. Elites are still fun with my low sp/ low arti toons at least. My main just goes in and wrecks so a lot less fun with him. I see it as a good thing for players, no real need for maxed out role builds. Can just do 140 artis reg vendor gear and ship it
    • Like x 1
  15. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Of course it's doable, the problem is that it creates an exclusionary situation in content. So suddenly this build you have been working for isn't able to be used and now you wont be able to do the content.

    It is nice that they are thinking of pets now though, because I noticed that FO2 final boss no has pets trigger the death balls, just movement mode.
    • Like x 2
  16. KHALONofOGUN 10000 Post Club

    While I mostly agree with the sentiment of your post, you are actually incorrect about something. While it's true that this isn't a standard episode, there is in fact new gear...Fuginaut Councilor (Purple Drop Gear Item Level 298) and Orrery Guardian (Gold Vendor Gear Item Level 300 and Elite Item Level 302).
    • Like x 1
  17. Kestral Committed Player

    I partially agree with you. Sorcery back then used to use the pet watcher as a standard load-out. It was near impossible to heal effectively without it. We did it with two heals at the time, even solo by the skin of our teeth depending on the group level, but it was a struggle. I do enjoy mechanic raids like this though I do not enjoy the 10min at the start just trying to get people to listen to what the mechanics are let alone comprehend how it affects their individual actions.

    Now? Now people have pets and alies and backup that are tied to artifacts and augments. Which means you don't knowingly summon them they just appear for a time and do what they want. The amount of time that goes into the artifacts alone means just removing them for a single boss fight may not be viable as so many of your stats and loadout configurations can be tied to them. And all of that is just on the people who have the reading comprehension to know that their artifacts are summoning adds.

    Removing luck of having a pet summon itself and take a liking to essence and replacing it with a conscious action on the player bases part is a good design choice. As this functionality of pets/backup didn't exist when the Raid was created this feature significantly increased the difficulty of a already challenging raid and it's removal does not significantly decrease that difficulty from what it was when we originally played it as new content. We will all still have to deal with that one idiot who can't listen. We just won't have to play the game of who's pet is that before we know who to kick.
    • Like x 2
  18. NotMeMaybe Active Player

    You guys are talking about these players who can't open Youtube which takes 2 minutes so they can't understand Mechanics?
    Those same people who can't use a mic for 20 minutes in 2021if it's required?
    These same players that will complain no matter what and that are not capable to block when they see a skull?
    I see i see,now if you want the Raids nerfed for this type of players. Ok nerft normal and event, but let Elite how it is right now cuz i'ts fine and doesn't need any nerf at all, thanks in advance to the few in this forum that always complain to let elite how it is.
  19. NotMeMaybe Active Player

    You have a few on this forum that can't even block a skull, or follow very simple mechanics, and these people will always cry here and get the attention of Charon and our so called "community manager" then get the Raids nerfed.

    But its ok endgame players are leaving every dlc, everything ok in DCUO world.
  20. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Hmmm. Luck? Ok, so I guess if you want to remove luck from the equation, you can take Grim and Quizlet off, kill that Crystal/Fury/RSK/Supressor turret and that Boo/henchmen/Sidekick/pet trinket and unequip your ally if not summoning them is too hard (besides, the Ally attacks what you have targeted....don't target the essence and it won't catch a 'lucky' shot). While there might be a few others that would need to be pulled, 'luck' has nothing to do with it. Sorry, but just because the DPSes can't be bothered to remove the things or not use the things that summon pets, it's self control, not luck.

    Ran a pug run of reg today. Apparently as the patch went in all bets are off. Adds were all over the essence the tanks (and yes...there were still 2 of them) were all over the room and switching their jobs (adds/essence or ares) and in general it was a poop-show. I suggested doing it normally, but got 'you don't have to anymore' as a response. We did get it done but after 6 rounds of killing the essence. Later ran a LFG group where we had one tank on Ares/adds the whole time and one on the essence, same as you'd normally do it and we got Ares down in 3 rounds of essence...and DPSes in both groups were comparable.

    I get that some people needed the crutch added, but again...why did we get the clamp? Wasn't it to help some people learn mechanics just like not be able to just burn through stuff without thought? This seems counter productive to that initiative.

    But least we have one STU raid that's spammable now. So that's good, right?