Theres no progression to beating raids anymore.

I still find myself taking 60 to 120 minutes to beat SGE. So yes while some people find it to easy, not everyone does. You have to find a level of difficulty that is challenging to most but not impossible.

If your group still finds it to easy and disappointed in the like of challenge take off your elite gear and Un equip your mods. Perhaps the lower stats while give your group the longer grind you seek.

This was the point I was making too and it's correct, if you change the gear progression model then you can insert more challenging content because your curve is longer and not a 3 month rat race. the moment you squash everything in to a 3 month window you turn it into a pressure cooker and if you make it too difficult you will just equally have people skip content, because what's the point in grinding out like you say when the window passes and everything gets replaced.

If you want a true progression curve the current model is broken.

No that is absolutely not correct. You can have still have some progression like I stated above and hard elite raids in the cycle but your stuck in your way of thinking. Having challenging content has nothing to do with how long the dlc last for. And hey if some people can’t finish both gear sets in that time span cause it takes them a while to beat elite they can get it when the next dlc comes out and they have stronger gear. It’s not like the last dlc goes away and you can never get the styles or feats again.

Also elite content isn’t for everyone it’s for people who want a challenge. Everyone would still be able to get the regular gear set no problem under what I proposed.

Ive stated before I'll continue to stat it til Im possibly blue in the face. The game currently has no progression. The episodes are given and released in the form of a "Buffet" and everyone eats til they are filled. Progression is about a 3 course meal over time. Progression of today is labeled more on Episode being progression then the next Episode and that is logical but thats seeing it over the calendar months, when you look at the weeks inside those months, thats not progression. As much as others hate the idea and I understand it, on launch day the Solos, Duos, Alerts and Normal Raids should be released. Elite Content should then be released a month or 2 after. I'm of course using and even thinking of the WoW release model and it works. As Crappy said, the Episodes arent gone, they are still there if you cant beat it right away. Wait for the next episode and try again. Its the mentally of doing it NOW rather than taking your time and that in general is where game development as a whole is currently.

The game currently is again, setup as a buffet, so players can go in and pick and choose what the want to play immediately. i know many folks that go straight into Elite and do nothing else. So this system works for them. They never do any other content, thats where they live. Others are solo folks so they'll do the open world and thats it. The Gear drops are covered around this system so players playing anything in the content can get the Purples and continue to grow by playing whatever they want. Its both a system that works and a system that hurts. With Elite not requiring gear from its own episode, its tough to balance and gauge difficulty when anyone with previous episode gear can walk in and claim its too hard. The simple answer is of course, get better gear, but thats not an answer some folks want to hear.

You're not considering the time frames crappy, again im not opposed to making more challenging content so don't worry about that, but i don't agree the current time frames allow for a meaningful progression curve.

If a DLC lasts 3 months or 4x3= 12 weeks give or take and it takes 12 weeks or 9 weeks with a booster just to complete the renown are you truly surprised there is no lead in time and content is designed easy enough to just jump in and run and potentially beat day 1?

I mean do you not honestly see the futility in proposing a lead in time to a 12 week dlc that requires a grind to only then replace that grind before you've even finished it?

Even if a player grinds a week or two you've forced them to then reset or use renown boosters to even finish before the futility of realising it'll only be replaced sets in.

That leads to disengaging players mentally as equally as not providing them with the challenge does.

Also just for the sake if the argument what's your benchmark in terms if challenge, if you wouldn't mind name the benchmark raid you say is the challenge, bets are if it's post dox, it was still beat day 1.

And if it's dox or prior then you've actually surely agreed with me you'll need a longer window, even with dox for example you'll recall that window was way longer and also had a small dlc afterwards trigon, that added no new raids.

You made some very good points and I know you know what a good progression system feels like cause you play games like WoW. I myself play or have played other mmo’s or whatever you want to classify the games as and when coming back to this game it’s always kind of a bummer to me how the content is setup.

I just honestly think having a better system in place then we do now would be much better for the game in the long run. Sure it might ruffle some feathers for a month or so but people will get over it.

And I especially love your last sentence!!

Your just the person that’s never wrong and can never see things from any other POV but your own. I don’t come to the forums often anymore cause I can’t stand to argue back and forth with people like you who are stuck in their own bubble. It’s players like yourself that have always changed the game for the worse or held back positive changes cause all you do is yell on the forums all day with massive walls of text.

Acting like we can’t have some sort of progression in a 3-4 month cycle is so narrow minded and frankly stupid. Acting like no one will be able to complete anything cause of the time frame without replays is also ridiculous. You could easily find a model where most stuff could be competed but your to stuck in your own bubble to take a few minutes and really think about it.

I’m done going back and forth with you cause all I hear is blah blah blah

In a way what you're suggesting is also what im suggesting.

You can't have a meaningful challenge in a progression system that exists within DCUO presently.

If you released elite raids seperately you'd be doing exactly what im suggesting and moving the raids into a lengthened window that's longer or staggered.

The issue with DCUO is also the gear model, if you ditched elite gear for example and just had gear (similar to dox days) then people could just grind gear throughout any DLC and then approach the elite challenge with the goal of it being a challenge and not a means of absolute progression.

That isn't to say you don't put appropriate rewards in there i just don't think you're going you get a proper challenge

I wonder too whether we wouldn't just be better off scrapping elite vendor gear and putting the gear back as elite drops so that it encourages the completion and running of the content not just milking the system sideways every 3 months.

Im just thinking out loud here.

Most other mmos for example have much longer release windows swtor for example hasnt had an expansion for 3 years, one is coming in October.

Actually that's not true at all and if you're going to come on a public forum you need to be prepared to discuss things with other people who have different perspectives and opinions.

Theres no right or wrong here and lashing out at me and accusing me or people of similar thoughts to me as destroying the game is an unnecessary personal attack.

Im trying to find common ground actually and am actually trying to see it from your perspective, as equally as you i could assert you refuse to see it from my perspective and are equally stuck in your own viewpoint.

That doesn't mean however I'd start to unnecessarily shut down discussion, you made a thread to discuss the topic not create some echo chamber in a hope to reinforce your own viewpoint that isn't conducive to creating a constructive discussion at all and you really don't need to get upset when we don't agree.

So respectfully and again to try and find this common ground what is your idea of a challenging raid from there we can look at the content and how the system might have differed at that point in time

Numerous people on these forums including hardcore players have said they thought Hive e for example was a good example of a challenge, yet that was still beaten day 1...

So excuse me, but surely you can see an additional element of frustration when seemingly this goal post of what is challenging keeps seeming to move every DLC...

So again, what's your raid example?

This is Dc I understand that and I’m not trying to have some crazy progression curve just something like I’ve stated but you just go on and on about how it won’t work and then when I mention something like a small bit of progression then you move the goal posts and say well to have meaningful progression the 3 month cycle won’t work. You just keep moving the goal post just to keep going back and forth.

The Whales that spend hundreds, if not thousands on this game monthly (judging by all the skips, pay to advance gear and lootboxes) have no interest in anything other than "beat it the first day with gear they bought with RB fueled Elite Gear" so... not sure, if you are not one of said Whales is going to do to change the progression in any way.

Might be a good idea but let's not argue against what is clearly the business model funding this game. Pretty sure the Devs know what makes more money and harder Elite?

There's what, 300 people playing at any given moment, how many of those 300 are clamoring to even get into Elite Raids the day they drop let alone at all? I would doubt it's a very high percentage.

Having said that, most of the people that do FREE promotion QUALITY Tutorials on YouTube for this game and have put this game on the radar of aforementioned Whales (or at least show them OP loadouts / exploits) want harder Elite if not content in general so I could see where it would make sense to throw them a bone...

crappy you also have to take into consideration whom you play with. your in one of the best leagues in the game by default content will rub off as easier. we have to take into consideration other players in the game who enjoy playing elite but arent on the same elitist level. you dont want to make the content to difficult

if you want more of a challenge consider playing more with lfg players that you dont know or even playing it under geared with league mates. because what feels to easy too you might be harder to the majority of the community.

im all for the super hard challenges but you have to have a sweet spot that everyone is comfortable with

1. You haven't answered the question. What is your idea of a challenging raid, naming the raid will guide the conversation to an example of the challenge required and from there we can consider the progression model.

2. If we can identify your ideal challenge and ideal progression model then we can identify what's changed and discuss why and where it might have gone wrong.

3. Theres no goal posts in this discussion, i have no goal posts, when i refered to goal posts in my post which i note you've neatly spun back at me there i was referring to players who continually move the goal post of what they find challenging, you or anyone else otherwise

4. By establishing the challenge i.e the example we set the goalpost, there's really no need to move it, unless your suggesting a certain level of difficulty you once found acceptable is no longer acceptable, then i think you'd probably have to explain your reasons. E.g if you pointed to paradox as seen example and said i want something harder than that then you should make that position clear.

5. The 3 month window doesn't work because it's not long enough and you'll find theres a reason most serious mmos don't have a window that short. A quick Google of wow for example will show you the release dates

The Burning CrusadeJanuary 2007
Wrath of the Lich KingNovember 2008
CataclysmDecember 2010
Mists of PandariaSeptember 2012
Warlords of DraenorNovember 2014
LegionAugust 2016
Battle for AzerothAugust 2018

Do you see a three month release window in there? There's a reason and the progression system is entirely different

6. In DCUO they're spamming content furiously and it's stupid, it waters down progression and the challenge, ask yourself what happens when you try to shrink progression, the answer is simple it gets made easier so that people get it done in the 3 month window, if they don't, they just skipping it. The DCUO develops are monetizing their players every 3 months by pushing content and that is reliant on replays etc.

If you can't see how this isnt about money then your view is too idealistic, theyre making a challenge that's just challenging enough to appease the biggest audience possible that they can monetize, certainly not incorrectly, they are a business after all and they're in it to make money, that includes the hardcore players.

In fact they're monetizing them more than casuals imo.

7. If you slow down the system and take a breath, you can design meaningful content, meaningful progression and a meaningful challenge, notwithstanding you can undermine it all in this game with replays.

8. Release one big expansion every 6 months or even 12 months, make it 5 raids, make the elite so ******* hard everyone will be at it for the whole 12 months to beat it and we'll have a far healthier game.

9. The progression system can occur in the background by way of vendor gear or even crafted gear with the best gear being from elite, but you dare not even step foot into elite until you've ground out vendor etc.

See are we really that far apart? I highly doubt it, the only difference in opinion we really seem to have is that you think we can squish that into 3 months, you're entitled to have that view, it isn't wrong, i just subjectively think it won't work, cited by the fact it doesn't work now.

I’ve said in earlier posts you can keep reg easy and still have a slight progression curve to enter the raid. I’m for sure thinking about the more casual people but at the same time I would like to see some progression before even entering a reg raid. The reg raid would be hard only cause of health gates not difficulty. That would still keep it easy and at the same time make players build up some gear before just jumping in the raid and beating it in the first 30 min.

For elite that’s where not only would you get health gated and dps checked but have more complex mechanics. That model there would make you have to gear up further before being able to complete some parts of the raid. Also elite content isn’t for everyone at least that’s what people always tell me so for us who like a challenge it’s not affecting those who don’t and if people who don’t run elite want to collect the style or get some of the feats they can try it more at the end of the dlc when they are geared up more or some may have to wait till next dlc to complete it depending on skill level.

Im not asking for regular content to be harder just for some progression so people feel more accomplished and the content isn’t such a joke but I would like elite to be a very good challenge. After all it is elite and it would be difficult.

you overestimate the increase in your stats. from maxed out gear of last DLC to maxed out gear of the next, the increase is most likely only 10% in total. therefore, if you are beating elite raids right away, it is not that big of a deal. if you are not beating elite, then it doesn't mean you can beat it with the equipement you get from the next few DLC's. just saying.

And you don’t understand what I’m saying. New raids need to be scaled up way more then they are now so you can’t beat them with the last dlcs gear. That means the new gear will have much greater stats then it does now to bring you up to par with the new health thresholds for the new content.

The way the system is set up now the new raids aren’t scaled up enough to allow for any progression and we’re able to beat elite in old gear which imo is silly.

Also with such big increases in gear the last dlcs elite raids should be a lot easier. The way it is now the gear is like you said small increases but under what I’m talking about they would be much more then they are now so yes it would make the last dlcs easier to complete elite.


And proxy I see you liking his post and that just shows me how nothing we spoke of you understand. That’s why I refuse to go back and forth with you.

Yes, a tank in last dlc's gear should not already be at the recommended dom for the raid they should be much lower. They should have to pick up some gear first and the same goes for all other roles and their specific stats and especially health and defense.

Depending on sp, a player with last dlc elite gear can have better stats than a player with current dlc gear. That's just 350sp player to a 450sp player

With 350 skill points thats enough to get all your most important stats. I think at 300 is enough to fill out your role specific stat. Someone with 450 and someone with 300 will have the same dom/might/resto/prec/vit cause you can only get so much of one stat from skill points. And if you have lower skill points then 300 then you will just simply need more newer gear.

Also if the new gear had the right step up in stats no amount of skill points could get you to the threshold of new content in old gear.

I'm all for it. Although it had some major flaws I did enjoy the days when CR mattered because it made grinding for gear way more important than it used to be now.