The Stats Revamp 1.1

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Avair, Dec 19, 2016.

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  1. TheDark Devoted Player

    Feedback on Control Effects
    This update falls flat here again because there is a disconnect of what the developers are saying, and what they are executing.

    First, a developer stated along the lines that control effects from controllers are designed to last the longest and be unique. Under the Dominance stat, we're given the same 4 types of control effects that are on live that benefit from the long duration mechanic based on a controllers dominance.

    An increase of 3 to 6 seconds is still minimal compared to the full force of controlling on live in where we can control NPCs for 20+ seconds. This is of course on NPCs where these effects are noticed and actually useful (NPCs that have no breakout profile like the the lesser Parademons in DWF & even some of the amazon warriors in the Olympus).

    CC duration on test for Mass levitation, the new prison power, mass terror, the new TK pull (pull then stun), all register a stun for 6 seconds at 92 dominance. Notes state the increase is from 3 to 6 however, given the fact we're limited in stat expansion at the moment, I cannot conclude that the dom duration mechanic will affect these powers. It it does, disregard. If not, you have a conflict of what is being said and what is being done.

    Added CC effects
    The conflict also exists between the stuns from pryokinesis, psychic shock and terror tendrils. I will give thanks for listening to feedback on adding more control effects and reinstating it to these 3 powers. However, their stun effect duration does not match the duration of levitation/stun from Mass Levitation, Prison, Mass Terror, and TK Pull. The stun effect last only 1 second when you use Pryo, and shock. If I use Terror Tendrils, 6 stun effects are registered on the NPC along with 2 ticks of damage. This is the clash of CC duration I'm talking about.

    Making it so the higher dom player's CC registers is an ok addition but it is not needed. The fact control durations are so short make it so it doesn't matter. Control effects will be reapplied by default based on the other perks they have (debuffs/Power interaction set ups/even damage) but the cool downs on the powers with 8 target stuns is still pretty long. They are not spammable to suppress mobs of NPCs, which is what a controller is responsible for even in the presence of a tank (their CC suppress the NPCs which cause less damage which reduces heals out from healers). So we're still restricted due to cool downs. The option can be to use 2 powers with 8 target CC but now you're going into territory that, depending on instance, will disagree with the power healing priority choices among debuffs.

    I'm just not a fan of the mass target CC powers having long cool downs. The more spammable powers in mental only control at max 2 targets depending on what it is. That's a major fail and one of the weaknesses Gadgets had pre GU40. Adding Paralyzing Dart (8 target stun power with barely 1 second cool down) was a majorty advantage to what it had before because it allowed us to be in a position where we can actually control massive mobs.

    I have agree that Tank physical pulls should have priority over other effects.

    So, I'm hoping we get a dev response to this. I'm taking time away from finals study which is a major sin... but I do enjoy the game as it is on live. Obviously it's not perfect. This current direction on test is just so wrong in regards to controlling. Yes, some of the changes would actually be neat if they were implement to what's on live like the supercharge building. If there was an OPTION to do an AUTO PoT cycle (very similar to elite affinity mod) even that I would be ok with if the current PoT mechanics on live worked too if you didn't want the auto option.

    I would actually be ok with the lame Innate Power Over Time Change IF the control effects were left alone. I mean seriously, there is no need to change them other than to remove the base duration of 15 seconds and just have everything scale with dom for those 4 CC effects. Even there you would have a reduction in CC duration (which is what is actually being done) while at the same time putting the complete length of the effect choice in the players hand by still encouraging the dominance duration mechanic.

    Aside from the alterations made from the first phase of testing, everything else is just something I doubt anyone asked for. I'm still confident that end game testing will allow me to give far more detail on some mechanics, and that the team will continue to make adjustments. So I don't think anyone should fire shots at you guys. But if this was to continue to go in this direction for Controlling, I have to say it would be very difficult for me to really enjoy the game. I really hope this does not go live.
    • Like x 8
  2. Canadian Justice Well-Known Player

    The change from an ability based power management system to the passive system allowed for a much smoother attack oriented style of play. A very nice change.

    I'm still not sold on supercharges though. Sure, it's extremely easy to build up the needed power to use them but they still seem fairly lackluster, at least from a DPS perspective. Overall I feel that an extra attack power is a better choice than a supercharge. That could just be me though and at least running a supercharge build is a viable option now, at least in how frequently they can be used.
    • Like x 3
  3. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    You guys doesn´t really know how to find a middle ground. You went from an original idea that would required a more thoughtful gameplay, teamwork and coordination between two controllers, to this.... this none sense that wouldn´t require any skill at all, i mean is like going in auto-pilot, the controller just need to stand there in the middle of the group and spam the power dump and the job is done.

    The self regen passive buff is also too strong, i was able to spam a heavy offensive loadout as Electric DPS without a troller, using so much less my weapon to regen power.

    There is a key word that you guys need to remember always while trying to make this revamp: balance.

    This game is already easy enough, there is no need to dumbed it down even further.

    I guess that the "complexify" part of the revamp went out of the window.
  4. Mystere Well-Known Player

    Ok, played from T1 to T2 in solos in duos. The innate power back is the right concept, but still painfully too low. There is no way to play from the tray. If you have played the game over the years, you will recall that people complained that they had to use weapons and that many superheros don't. Thus AMs were created. While AMs may have a few issues, they were created to allow people to play from the tray (which people could do with NO powers issues whatsoever). Whatever you do with power if you don't let us play from the tray (i.e., forced to use weapons) it will be a major step back and fail IMO. I ran a T1 duo with someone in control role and barely noticed any difference to power back. While you are getting rid of AMs, due to the current power issues, one is forced to choose certain powers to try and play from the tray without running out of power (and you still can't do that). If we are going to be forced back into playing a certain set of powers again, just leave the AM alone.

    Not sure why you stuck with the supercharge recharge concept as it still requires a space on a bar (it gives slightly more supercharge, but still seems like a throwaway).

    The cooldowns are much improved for DPS side. Healer side - they are still awful - slightly less awful, but awful. One reason I can see for this is that the way it is now, everything does way less damage (in we do way less damage). Thus, less healing is needed. In my opinion this is just a sign of how you have slowed down the game (power slow, recharge slow, damage slow) and again feels really boring compared to live. In fact, it feels like playing legends PVE. If we want to play that way, we already can there.

    Also, there are currently 14 powers which presently had a specific niche in game play (DOTs, mobile channeled, combos, pets, etc). With the current changes, all of the powers that I have tested (ice, elec) feel the same. No point in running alts if it will simply play as a reskin. What are your plans to address this?

    I had some balance issues in t2 content and will post there.

    I still do not like the direction this is going at all and hope you really keep listening and taking feedback as this is still way off IMO.
    • Like x 3
  5. Victor99dcuo Well-Known Player

    am So Happy! We can Troll without spamming that POT move, And We Keep Our Stuns! Looks Like their's still Hope For this Revamp!
    • Like x 1
  6. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    Are you kiding right? Unless you were putting in your loadout alll the big hitting moves there is no way you would run out of power.
    If you are spamming the PoT move right now on live server, you are doing it wrong. Its a move that needs to be refreshed every 20 secs, thats not spam.
  7. Pults Loyal Player

    Put a thought into allowing controllers to buff players as well? The current changes are good but it still doesn't promote the use of two controllers as much since the task is fairly simple for even one controller. With all damage buffs going to only one person I think it's prime time to allow controllers to do more tasks other than stun and be a battery.
    • Like x 4
  8. Perdition Committed Player

    The changes are looking good so far! :) keep it up Devs. the aspect of controlling more looks intresting.
    • Like x 1
  9. Mystere Well-Known Player

    Not true. Toss out arc lightning, tesla ball and either electrocute or voltaic bolt and out of power in no time

    There are a variety of combos that sap power quick.

    Open world stuff doesnt count cause stuff dies quick and gives you blue orbs for power.
    • Like x 1
  10. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    But that´s the whole point of power cost, to achieve balance between the consumption and the efficiency of each move.
  11. Darklord Kitty Well-Known Player


    I have been a controller for 6 years, max stats always with max SP and all.

    POT required skill and timing, double ticks and what not, doing away with the same is not a fun aspect of controlling.

    Trying to reinvent the wheel is not a good thing for consistency purposes. If the goal of the game is to remove skill and make a role lame and absurd, you guys are on the right track.

    I agree with everything TheDark has stated.

    I am all for stats revamp but not so much for completely overhauling the roles.

    In my opinion, a Controller should not be second DPS or something along the lines, it should do POT, instant recharge, control and debuff.

    If you wish for making meaningful changes to the Controller role, then reworking how debuffs and control work should be the only changes under consideration leaving everything else intact.

    Designing NCPs and game environment for controller effectiveness seems more worthwhile than changing how the role and powers function. It has been wisely said, 'it it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

    Most people applauding these changes are novices and unworthy of being controllers and clearly have had limited exposure to the game.

    The only change I can appreciate is that tank pulls take precedence over other control effects and apart from that, the changes to controller role are stupid and unnecessary.

    I hope you could investigate the game further and look to its foundation and see what original game play was all about instead of trying to make this game like City of Heroes clone or introduce some other element taken from other games when the whole original system design of this game were unique, skill based and enjoyable.

    Dumbing down the game further, eliminating skill so that morons can come and press buttons and still perform their role without understanding anything is not the way to go forward.

    We expect better and while this does not look any better, it can be if you guys don't break the game any further. The history of changes going with GU 36 have only created more problems and have been a big let down time and time again.

    Some steps are in the right direction, for e.g. opening up all power points and making SP more effective but most of the new changes represent a next level flawed system design exacerbating the current problem further instead of curing it.
    • Like x 6
  12. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    Feedback On Level Unlocks - From Test Server (p.s. so I have tested) I was going to put this in each individual thread but it relates to all powers and likely all powers to come and I think this should be considered now.

    You're allowing players to be support roles, but not giving them the necessary tools to carry out that role often until significantly later. The trouble with this approach is that these players are allowed to enter into event instances for example at low levels but don't have the necessary tools in which to carry out the task, essentially through no fault of their own other than not being that level yet.

    This can cause problems for the group in general because of that persons inability to carry out the necessary task, even if they look it up or are helped.

    screenshots of each example below

    Healer - Electricity are not given Bio-Capacitor and Galvanize until very late in the piece, these two moves are highly critical integral parts to electricity healing and in my view should be unlocked earlier in the leveling system.



    Controller - Allowed to be a controller but not given the ability to throw instant power return until level 13ish? sorry my screenshot for this one didn't save and i've logged off the test server.

    Tank - Allowed to be a tank but isn't given the primary tank pull until level 14, also isn't given the single taunt until level 16


    I think these just need to be moved in a bit to ensure players are unlocking role critical powers as close as possible to when they're given the ability to undertake that task.

    We want to be encouraging people to embrace their support roles as early as possible within the game.
    • Like x 4
  13. SuperNerdGeekOverkill Dedicated Player

    In a way, there's a logic behind this. However, for me personally, power management has always been something that the group works with the controller. If I see the troll is getting low on mana himself and cannot keep up, I use more of my weapon combos instead of power spamming. Or I use a cola. Or a supply drop (if possible next to the troll).
    If you want a way for non-trolls to contribute even more actively to general power management, one option could be to introduce power combos like in HL, Rage and Celest, determining 4-5 powers per powerset and if you do a certain mouse combination after using it, you regen a little power. Granting this ability to 4-5 powers per powerset would grant bigger freedom in the choice of your loadout. Or you could attach that functionality to just a button combo, like hold range+melee attack button at the same time for 2 seconds.

    Now, I can agree that there's SOME logic behind taking the active POT away from controllers. However, giving power to the group has so far been the most essential part of a troll's job (yeah, I know CC & debuff...but they're not constantly needed. The need for power was constant, that's why I call it the most essential part). I feel like the logical conclusion of making group pot for trolls a passive would be a passive healing ability for the healers, a passive damage ability for the DPS'es and an auto-taunt & auto-stay-alive for the tanks. If the game comes to that, why should anyone want to play it? We could just let bots run their course and play this game.

    As a pugger, I can see the (very small) upside of this auto-group-power-regen for trolls. Can't tell you how many times I ran into "trolls", who in fact were just DPSes with 1 or 2 troll pieces, changing stance via T key, but SP specced as DPS, and they don't even know what a pot is and therefore never or - by accident - rarely use it. However, because they don't have troll stats, the power that the group gains from the auto-POT will be only slightly better than nothing and not suffice in any way.

    Also, the smalll lightning bolt below your own mana bar has been a reliable indicator to see if the troll is a problem. If the lightning bolt was up constantly (or constantly when required), you had a troll who knew what to do. With the auto pot, you can't distinguish a troll who doesn't even know what to do from a troll whose vit is just a bit too low, because the only thing you have to go on is, if the group has enough power or not. You won't know why.

    Avair, so far you have confirmed my initial faith in you, please do continue to listen :)
  14. Tsigalko Well-Known Player

    oh no..

    the dark pretty much sum it up, the power heal aspect from controllers have been totally dumbed down. before, we can determine if the troll is good or not simply just by looking on how he casts his pot. but now, the power healing aspect of how good a troll is just by how much their vit are. yes i know there other thing that trolls need to do, and i DO appreciate u guys making cc and debuff more relevant, but come on man, there must be a middle ground for those 3 aspect to be relevant. not just by basically eliminating one of them since u basically give power just by being in the group?

    AND ALSO :

    who the hell spam their POT? i haven't play pve in a while to be honest but do trolls at end game spam their pot nowadays? wow!!!! no wonder they need a total revamp. and pot is just 1 of the 6 slot you have in a loadout. and u really just need pot and power dump for power heal (i consider SC just for emergency use, which i almost never use). we still have 4 slot for cc and debuffs. i wouldn't call it being "forced to dedicate a loadout slot", coz it IS the troll's job. i mean we also need a debuff, so will you guys remove debuffs from trolls and make the enemies automatically get debuff if a troll is in the group because you dont want trolls to "forced to dedicate a loadout slot for debuffs"??? OFC not right? coz that is our job...

    srry for being so skeptic, and i realize im the minority here, but this is how i feel about it. its just like when u guys make 1234 as a way for dps, which i feel like just a way to dumb down the mechanic for bad dps players. now u're doing it to trolls.
    at least power healing shoudn't be an issue anymore right? so i guess its for the greater good, no matter how un-fun it wil be.
    • Like x 2
  15. Darklord Kitty Well-Known Player

    Very well said!!
    I will not say you are in the minority as any decent controller or a knowledgeable controller will feel and say the same as you do.

    I don't understand the need for fixing things that aren't broken just so that new systems design guy could play god and change the original creation.

    Most of all that needs to change with the controller role is the inefficiency of control effects and debuffs and to make then pertinent to content design rather than a complete overhaul of combat and role design.

    There is no need for POT to become passive or abilities to have increased cooldowns and slow the game further than it already is.
    If anything, they should just reverse back to pre-GU 36 era and add passive power return to other roles and all will be set while ensuring that control effects are required to be able to complete content.
    • Like x 2
  16. 30STM New Player

    Why you hate controllers so much? I really don't understand... I'm playing for controller from 2011... and you literally breaking my heart... You just killing controllers in almost every update. First powerback! now passive pot! Why? Yes, i like to use pot/ watch for it's buff/ try to do double pot/ debuff enemys and build combo to gain suprecharge. And i like it! But now... you just saing that i must forget that. Sorry, but it's worst what you can do with trollers... and i feel, that from that point i'm just gonna DPS, because trollers not for me anymore. THX!

    Totally right. Passive POT just kills controller role as itself
    • Like x 1
  17. Electrizzaro Loyal Player

    Changes are looking good. I am surprised that these changes were done tbh. It gives me hope for the game. TY
    • Like x 1
  18. Rokyn Dedicated Player

    If specced into power, is it still possible to DPS from the tray like it was stated before?
  19. Try Hard Well-Known Player

    These changes are great so far.There seems to be resistance on power over time being passive now,but I really like it.Hope the new changes remain.
    • Like x 3
  20. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Supposively the more you spec into power the greater the power return is. Something we can't test atm. But I do see from experience with what I have that if you do your rotation right you can get 7~9 powers in before you switch to weapons.
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