The mess that is the AM combo

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Jamie, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. Jamie New Player

    Just to be clear - this is not about damage potential but rather how the combo AM fundamentally works. This is a bigger issue on Rage and Celestial since most of their combos are only 2 hit combos. For their AM to have equal damage to WM that means that those 2 hits need to equal AM in DPS potential. Since you can combo WM into AM that means that 1/2 of the AM benefits from WM.

    So now you have the weapon portion of WM plus the crit from the power needs to equal the damage from a non-crit power and the combo power. This shows that the combo'ed power is the power that must be equal to the weapon portion of WM plus the extra damage from the crit in order for WM and AM to be equal.

    This still leaves the issue that a hybrid system is stronger than either AM or WM. The question is how to fix this issue since it appears that any balance to 1 system will not change the fact that a hybrid system is better. What I suggest is that all combo powers be able to combo into a superpower if they did not just use a WM. This would need to be a unique superpower since not all superpowers are created equally.

    Essentially if you get the crit bonus from WM you would be prevented from combo'ing into the superpower. Another option would be to increase the number of combos that Rage and Celestial had and have each successful combo increase in strength to a set maximum. This would change things more so I doubt the dev's would go for it.

    I'm interested in anyone's suggestions on how to fix the issue that we currently have where no matter the buff or nerf the hybrid system will still be superior to both AM and WM unless they completely destroy AM or WM.
  2. ChuckLess New Player

    My guess is that the "hybrid system" is supposed to be superior. Using Weapons and Powers together should be better than just one of the other.
    • Like x 1
  3. Tre Day New Player


    It should, but for some people, that's not something to consider.
    • Like x 1
  4. MEBegnalsFan Devoted Player

    AM combo for Celestial and Rage are fine, trying using the AM combo system for HL. That isn't even on equal footing as Celestial or Rage. I gone into T4 raids and use the AM combo system for HL with the Max Damage mod and the resentless precision mod with my hit counter going 15+…I get crap for damage…The 450 boost along with inspiration and recharge used in conjunction my damage values should be higher, but they are not…AM combo for HL is truly broken… I get beat by players in 90 gear all the time as a 93/94 HL DPS...I am use to it...I find myself simply playing now to have fun and not being top in anything any more...it makes the game more enjoyable...
  5. Malachyte Devoted Player

    At least you guys have AM. Us Quantum folks are still waiting for ours...LOL
    • Like x 3
  6. MuTeDx Committed Player


    better to be waiting on a working AM than having a broken one and being ignored when pointing out obvious flaws in the system. Then be given a Pi as a band aid and be told that your AM is (combo+pi+clipping). Combo's are slow and low in dmg, the Pi is a moot point as they lowered the base damage on powers that use the Pi, and clipping should never be a part of anyone's AM, its always been a behind the scenes mechanic for those who wanted to max dmg, not part of the HL only AM.
    • Like x 1
  7. ACW37162 Loyal Player

    You left off HL the original combo power, I wonder why that is?
  8. Jamie New Player

    I left of HL because it is less of a difficult task to balance. Remember that the dev's want WM and AM to be equal and they intend for people to be able to run either one. They really want those 2 systems to be the best and as soon as you combine AM and WM you lose damage. That is what the dev's have stated numerous times. HL could be balanced easily by increasing the damage on each subsequent combo. Rage and Celestial have the issue that half of their combo benefits from WM so it encourages the use of a hybrid build.

    HL's damage out is garbage but that isn't what this thread is about. It is about how do you actually go about balancing 2 separate mechanics so that the combination of the 2 mechanics is weaker than either as the dev's have intended.

    Not according to the dev's. Either the dev's need to state that they now intend people to use a hybrid system for max damage potential or they need to fix the system.
    • Like x 1
  9. ACW37162 Loyal Player


    Do you really want the eves to answer this, TBH the easiest least amount ofcworknfor them is to go through the power tress and start turning off WM crit bonuses for say dreadful blast, because they can know if your actually going to use the combo or not.

    Celestial and rage have it pretty good, they are two power sets that do not have a single power turned off for WM crit chance, still benefit from stacking precision, and look gold under the max damage mod.

    This falls under the category of be careful what you ask for, you may actually get a response and it may be nothing like you would expect or want.
    • Like x 2
  10. 1ndab0x176 New Player

    acw is right. becareful what u ask for. there are way better loadouts for rage that use zero combos and full wm. ive tried full combo, hybrid and full wm loadouts, all buffs, and my full wm loadout hits the hardest, the fastest, keeps me out of range of attacks and uses very little power. 10k power in for every 1 mill damage out. send me a pm if u want my loadout OP.
    • Like x 1
  11. SkullGang Devoted Player

    Or they can reduce the damage of the 2nd hit combo if you did a WM crit.



    Thing is the "hybrid system" isn't square across the board. Fire and Ice won't be able to make use of this because it is literally one or the other. Either you use AM (casting and moving with max volatility up) or you WM burst with Spontaneous. It's not fair for it to be superior when not every power can perform this.
  12. Archangel Rafael New Player

    why is that a problem?
  13. SkullGang Devoted Player

    Not all powers can benefit from a hybrid system.
    • Like x 2
  14. Remander Steadfast Player

    The first bolded statement is incorrect. The ability casts are not part of the AM. The AM is only the combo. The combo cannot benefit from WM, as it's outside of the crit window. That's why the Dev team has repeatedly stated that the combo powersets and WM are mutually exclusive. Yes, you can WM crit into an ability and then combo from that ability, but they two aren't parallel. They're serial. The Dev team has also said repeatedly that they are trying to make equal the WM crit, which does not include the weapon combos leading into the crit, with the AM. So, in the case of Rage and Celestial, I take this to mean that they are shooting for the WM crit on the ability to equal the combo damage in terms of DPS. I'm not saying that they've succeeded or failed, FWIW. If you look at Celestial, a WM crit on Retribution may net you about 3k in balanced T6 gear. That ability takes 0.6 seconds. The Cleansed Wither combo in full precision T6 gear will do much more than that (the aggregate base damage is over 3 times what the base of Retribution is), but it involves a burst + 2 ticks and takes 3.9 seconds beyond the ability cast, though it can be clipped by another ability to shorten that to 1.8 seconds. Rage is different, in that most of the combos are much shorter than the Celestial combos. For that reason, it lends itself better to a hybrid approach. About the only viable hybrid with Celestial involves it's DoTs. Interweaving WM and Celestial burst combos is a damage loser. TBH, I don't envy the Dev team in this whole balancing pass. There are many variables, and we can push the envelope in different directions. I can't imagine it ever being fully balanced. I have to admit, though, that they seem to be getting closer.
    • Like x 5
  15. Jamie New Player

    Because it goes directly against what the dev's have repeatedly said that they wanted to do. The dev's could change their minds but does it really make any sense that 3 powers would be designed around a hybrid system while every other power had 2 independent methods for max damage potential?

    I have to completely disagree. To me a combo is all moves involved in the combo. With out the first move the second move does not exist so their is no combo. A 2 hit combo consists of 2 hits not just a hit followed by a combo of 1 hit. The first hit benefits from WM there fore the combo benefits from WM. It does not matter what the dev's say it only matters the way things are.

    As far as the talk about different moves and their damage potential is completely irrelevant. This is about how do you balance the AM and WM to what the dev's have said their intention is rather than towards a hybrid approach. With the current system that they have the dev's will never achieve their stated goals. I thought from the very start that the dev's were going about balancing the powers the wrong way and so far all they did was pushed people to WM or a hybrid system.
  16. Remander Steadfast Player

    LOL at the first statement!

    As to the second statement, what are we talking about then? How do you balance without considering relative damage potential? :confused:
    • Like x 2
  17. Nitefelina New Player

    Beep beep beep BOOM.

    That's the sound of the working AM in the game that thankfully gadgets has.
    • Like x 3
  18. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    Hmmm....
    *eats popcorn*
    • Like x 4
  19. Jamie New Player

    I live in the real world. Intentions are great and all but if they never come to fruition then the intentions are irrelevant.

    The current damage potential is not relevant in the least since that can easily be changed. What process can be taken so that AM and WM are balanced to each other but the hybrid system is weaker than both? Most powers do not have this issue but the combo AM's do. Since most combos are 2 moves (excluding HL) how do you boost WM where adding in the second hit of a combo has a lower damage potential than going right back into another WM? Can you make this change and add another change where doing a 2 hit combo has the same damage potential as WM but is stronger than the hybrid system. This is what the conversation is about.

    By your own admission Rage lends itself to the hybrid playstyle. This is intended to be weaker than using WM or AM so how do you propose changing things to make this the case while having AM and WM be equal to each other? Once the process is in place on how to adjust each aspect of a powers WM and AM then you will have a suitable process for balancing each powerset. Right now it seems to me like the dev's are throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks with no regard to creating a formal process.
    • Like x 1
  20. SkullGang Devoted Player

    Reduce the damage from the second combo when using WM to crit. You will still be able to combo but it won't be stronger than another power using WM and a power to crit.