Stats Revamp: Power Costs

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Mepps, Jan 6, 2017.

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  1. Mystere Well-Known Player


    Yeah I agree. Power is still awful across the board for non-raid content. I found across all powers that I did alot more dmg and completed things much faster by maxing out all the crit chance, crit dmg, and splitting the rest between prec and might. The extra power regen you get from putting points in power makes you lose out on A LOT of dmg.

    We ran an oly tonight and one elec (me - put sp into power) and the other elec (did what I described above), we used the same rotation and she smoked me. Went out and respecced and viola back on par with her.

    Also note, we did Oly with the following team:
    177 Ice Tank
    181 Sorc Heal
    184 Mental troll
    175 Elec dps
    175 Elec dps
    173 Gadgets dps
    173 Atomic dps
    174 Atomic dps

    So it was a 1-1-1-5 set up. We had NO problems. Power was fine and so were heals. Took a lil longer given lower cr/stats but wasnt an issue. So if all of this work was meant to get away from 111-5 set ups - LOL Because power was not an issue with a single troller - all the more reason to skip Power and put it into dmg stats (at least for now).

    Basically you gotta play all powers the following way atm:

    If trash mobs:
    1. Start with an AOE PI opening (use the lowest power costing one)
    2. Do a weapon combo; clip into
    3. A medium/high power costing aoe that uses the pi interaction
    4. Repeat - depending on the cooldowns you might have to use a throw away power like supercharge regen in between and then repeat

    If lt or boss:
    1. Start with a single target PI opener (use lowest power costing one)
    2. Do a weapon combo; clip into
    3. A medium power costing single target power that uses pi interaction
    4. Repeat. It seems like the single target powers recharge fast enough to not need to add a throw away power in between.

    As an example with gadgets with trash mobs:
    1. Jump in and cast gauss grenade
    2. Weapon combo into
    3. Vortex cannon
    4. For trash I find they are either dead or almost dead so I just use another weapon combo to finish them.

    As an example with gadgets on solo bosses etc:
    1. Jump in cast sticky bomb
    2. Weapon combo into
    3. Paralyzing dart
    4. Repeat - except for bosses you WILL RUN OUT OF POWER so you will eventually just get into a weapon combo sticky bomb rotation. This happens even if you spec everything into power so why bother with power - do much more dmg with the power you got!

    Of course you can toss out holographic display to speed up SC etc if you want.

    You could prob clip with consumables again - havent tried that yet tonight but will this weekend.
    • Like x 3
  2. Harlequin Loyal Player

    This. We can build specs focused around playing from the tray (PftT from here on out) and try to have fun with our toon or we can fall in line and go clipping and actually do damage. The exception to this rule seems to be (unless things are changed) combo powers. PftT with Atomic using combos is not so nearly as crippling to damage out as speccing for PftT as Ice.

    I had been focusing my time testing Ice as that is my main on live and I felt I was figuring out the PftT issue as my times through Iceberg Lounge as well as my power management issues were getting better as I tested and experimented but then I made an Atomic toon and literally laughed at how much faster things melted. If things go live anything like the current test build, everyone will be Atomic, Celestial, Rage or HL for PftT or they will be clipping to do damage. Any other style will be blown out of the water.
  3. Mystere Well-Known Player

    Ok, after playing all night I wrote an earlier post. There are a few additional things I noticed however:

    The way content is designed you have either groups of trash mobs wherein you want to AOE them down or you have bosses wherein you dont need AOE powers. This is true to most games. Also the game mechanics currently includes a power interaction mechanic wherein one power applies a PI (usually for low(er) dmg) and another powers does more dmg if the PI is applied. Because there are only 6 ability slots on your ability bar it almost inevitably leads to the following:

    You have 6 slots on your ability bar.

    1 slot for an AOE PI applicator
    1 slot for a relatively fast recharging AOE dmg power that utilizes the PI interaction
    1 slot for a single target PI applicator
    1 slot for a fast recharging single target dmg power that utilizes the PI interaction
    1 slot for a supercharge
    1 slot for either a sc generator or other utility (filler power)

    If this is how the content design and game design are going to work and you want parity across powers then:

    A. All powersets should have a low cost AOE and single target PI applicator
    B. All powersets should have medium cost AOE dmg power that takes advantage of the PI
    C. All powersets should have a low cost single target dmg power that takes advantage of the PI
    D. The powers above recharge times have to align to most fast weapon combos (especially if you are insistent in keeping power an issue)
    E. The power costs of the above mechanics should align and be consistent across powersets with power regen to support it

    Issues with this are the same as they have been since the game launched:

    1. You force a loadout on someone due to the game mechanics and PI mechanics combined with the 6 ability bar limitation
    2. You have two ability trees per powerset. It makes having a second tree redundant. I would solve for this by making one tree the support tree and the other tree the dps tree.
    3. It makes game play across powersets feel too similar - this is why AM's were introduced in the first place but you seem insistent on getting rid of them altogether instead of fixing them = all in the name of standardization and balance for some reason.

    The current build on test feels like you are moving in the direction I mentioned above but there are major contradictions/errors.

    For example - electricity:

    In the above model lets use the polarization PI loadout

    1. AOE PI applicator = Repulse - Medium Power
    2. AOE power that takes advantage of PI - Here you oddly have a few options which you dont have on the elec pi side. IMO presently the best option (due to power issues ) is shockwave (a low power cost option) and very fast recharge.
    3 &4. Single target polarization applicator = NONE (why I don't know). There is Tesla blast for elec PI but as I mentioned above there is no low cost single target fast recharging dmg power to take advantage of that like there is for polarization. You could change shockwave back to having an elec PI interaction and we can use spark barrage for the polarization. But right now this is a gap.
    5. You can either use supercharge builder - which does awful dmg, applies a PI which you don't need cause of the above PI applying powers and isnt ideal as a PI applier cause the recharge is too long or you can use a buff or one of the heavier hitting powers like electrostatic bomb. If you use ebomb, you basically can use it once on an enemy because you WILL be out of power.
    6. A supercharge. Since you are trying to make this more advantageous they need to be balanced against each other and across power sets. Consider grand summoning in sorc. That is 100% sc cost again and you will want to use another ability with it to give the pets power for it to be effective. Whereas in Elec you can use Megavolt and not need a second power.

    Finally, the amount of power you lose when you break out is WAY TOO MUCH; especially given the current power back mechanics for small group content.

    Oh one more thing that gets in my craw - to balance across powers you have to balance things like auto-hit abilities against to hit abilities. For example, on live, transmute will always hit your target whereas on test now transmute tosses a blob at the enemy and can miss. If you want balance, then you have to balance this aspect of the game across all of the powers or you will def have people switching to the ones that all have auto hits. On live I have both sorc and earth pets and what drives me nuts about the sorc pet is that it can miss! Whereas crsytal can't. There is no reason for this disparity as it leads to major dps disparity.
    • Like x 2
  4. Rokyn Dedicated Player

    Can the first post be updated to include the 3 new powers? Thanks. EDIT: I see it now. Nevermind.
  5. Ringz Dedicated Player

    I'm reading through not all but some of these post here and I really think some of yall are latching on to the AMs of playing from the tray.

    What im seeing alot is people stating they're still running out of power. Though some of the loadouts seems justifiable and maybe some power cost might need to be looked at, that still doesn't take away that most are wanting to never run out of power if they play from the tray. Keep in mine, this game combat is NOT restricted to just playing from the tray. In other mmos, the only way to access combat is by using your tray abilities, dcuo is not built that way and doesn't work like other mmos who does.

    Personally, I believe if you wanna pay from the tray, then you need to sacrifice some of those skill points heavy into power and mods/gen mods specialize with power. Now will that sacrifice some damage? Yes, and I think that it should be. You're asking to not use one of the key elements that contributes into combat, which are the weapons. And I see vids of people displaying playing from the tray, and some are restricting themselves so much, that when the boss is about to do a flash counter, they forget lunging, block breaking, and blocking even exist.

    Im curious, what are yall white mods like? Are yall taking advantage of the ones that specialize in power, like the breakout mod, reserve tank, bobbles etc? What about speccing into the movement mode breakout mastery? Also what about are yall taking advantage of the weapon power regen? I know some of yall want combat exclusive to just using the tray, but what about once that power bar is empty, and cola is on cooldown.

    Reading through here made me want to type this because really it seems people are comparing playing from the tray to how it is on live; because if thats the case if you don't wanna run out of power you might as well have the devs create the loadout for you likeso.

    Also I experienced some trolls who struggled to keep people bars up, whom were playing from the tray. When we asked both stated they were using their power dumps when it was on. So im guessing this troller change isn't helping at all. Bring back the pot system and have people specialize for this kind of thing. But if folks still have problem with the word battery once ams and wm is gone, Im not helping digging graves here.
    • Like x 2
  6. Saint Nutella Loyal Player

    Neutron bomb (atomic) takes a huge amount of power in my opinion. Also along with theach stat revamp could you lower the power cost of breaking out? Even better remove the cost.
  7. Celestial Powers Committed Player

    After running through more content I realized that the two trolls we usually have in the group have a full power bar where as every other role in the group has 0 power to spend, this isn't a case of poor power management but a lack of power being available to anyone simply to try and respond to the content.

    Controllers power dump ability needs it's cooldown reduced, this is in my opinion the culprit of a lot of the feedback saying that power costs are too high. Appealing to the desires of people not wanting to be a battery isn't an option here, if soders, sidekicks and supply drops are all on cooldown how is anyone supposed to be able to do their role with just weapon attack button mashing?
    • Like x 1
  8. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Or controllers could utilize the power tray and do more CC. Which was the intention of the changes. I think most controllers got stuck doing their normal hit insta power after every rotation, they don't know what to do with the rest of their power.
  9. Celestial Powers Committed Player

    You can't CC bosses, we tried GOMn, there was a lack of power in the group but multiple debuffs were always on bosses. It wasn't a difficult fight by any means but when there was a lot of incoming burst damage every 5 seconds which power returns from trolls weren't enough. I can't do weapon combos when everyone's constantly below 40% life as I'm in animation to cast abilities, one two range taps isn't enough to regen my power enough for the next set of incoming damage.
  10. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Power regen works the same between dps and role. I don't see why in boss fights you can't add extra damage since they are bringing closer all the roles in damage. You wont top the chart nor do I think the concept of "battle troll" makes any sense just as much as "battery troll" does. It all goes in the management of your own powers.

    On live, right now, we don't get power return from our AMs, but we do get boosted AM. Doing Distract > PDart mixed in doesn't hurt the group if you know how to keep power going to yourself. I don't see how this would change. Right now, people are looking at how troll play style is on live for the majority (I know some people are really good at doing it all, awesome!) which is just feed power. With current changes on test, you can't or you are not maximizing your role. Which is Power, CC, debuf, and extra damage. (Yes, I said, extra damage, since trolls used to be the only role that didn't have the role damage reduction while in their stance.)
    • Like x 1
  11. Celestial Powers Committed Player

    Trolls doing more than just dump power is fine with me, my issue is, as a healer, if I need to react to situations which take a lot of power and these situations are happening constantly I can't regen my own power to be sufficient enough to react to the next set of big damage so then it's most likely going to be a wipe as there's a domino effect, if I don't heal immediately the tanks just instantly die because they're made of paper on test, a random group member might end up getting killed which now is more punishing than ever before as my healer shield doesn't last long enough to get a pick up.

    I've had quite a few runs now where the troll has to super charge at full power himself so that other group members at 0 power can get regen'd as they can't keep up with the power expenditure for any role.
  12. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    In the end, it has to do with how they setup the powers. I understand your concept, but since things can go dry easier now, it's supposed to have you think about your own loadout wisely. Same with DPS, PFTT just wont cut it anymore. You have to use weapons or you are losing damage due to not speccing for your strength.

    I think this is the intention of these changes. I understand where you are coming from, but now it's not the trolls fault because he was the sole source of power. As now it's also in the other roles hands.

    I do agree though, healing powers in general seem to be just too high cost or long cooldowns. Which cause your concern.
    • Like x 2
  13. mousy New Player

    power cost is still increasing with are cr at a much faster rate then are power pools are making us become less efficient with are powers as we cr up they have adjusted base power costs but power costs were decent at lower cr and when we were leveling so doing any more of that is not needed it is that power costs scale faster then the power pool given from gear if we want to remain at the same efficiency we must mod and spec large amounts into power to be able to do the same rotations you can do without doing so at lower cr levels if the scaleing equation could be changed so it didn't go up so are power pool / cost of a power would stay equal instead of how it currently goes down as cr gets higher then we could truly have a choice to mod or sp into power to increase are efficiency or to put those sp or mods into other stats to customize are char to are play style in other ways as this build is currently you need to mod split power and put around 80 sp into power to get to the power to power cost ratio level of a cr 31 toon in the leveling gear so we are doing things that have always been extra progression to make are toons stand out just to keep level with a base line that was set at level 30 when you would normally first finalize a rotation and start playing the on duty content this would be even more of an issue on live as here on test we get free 8 mods to mod with where on live now at most the cr we are at we would be using synthetics or alphas as most people will not use 24 bytes to mod a piece of gear they may be replacing the next day
    • Like x 1
  14. spack2k Steadfast Player

    u need to make passive pot stack ,else the power out of the troll with lower vitalization will look like a joke on scoreboard in a raid group even compared to dps , the second troll his power out is only based on power dump soder and supercharge.

    making passive pot stacking will not only encourage using 2 trolls it would also help the group a lot with power issue
    • Like x 1
  15. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    I think that if Weapon buffs are to stay with Medium power costs, I think they should at least last around 8 sec or even 10.

    That way with an Accelerated Weapon buff mod players would have almost constant buff available. Current 6 sec duration is just inconsistent and hardly supports actual Weapon clipping maybe Weapon Mastery but just that.
    • Like x 1
  16. supalova20 Well-Known Player

    I AGREE Mepps.....WEAPON BUFFS really should tick the whole 12 second cooldown or 10 minimum
  17. Karasawa Loyal Player

    I think everyone would agree that they want 12 second duration weapon buffs. Adjust them however you want. Just make them last 12 seconds.
    • Like x 2
  18. spack2k Steadfast Player

    not to mention that this mod is not available for all powers atm
    • Like x 1
  19. Flipeled New Player

    From my testings, I can confirm that power cost increases a lot faster than avaliable power pool as you move up your CR.
    I decided to prove it by testing the same rotation, with two different gear sets, to see how differently each tier would have the power management behave.

    I used the Atomic powerset, combo loadout, and the rotation was very simple: I opened with Beta Surge, along with the 2 combos. After that, I used Atom-Powered Assault to activate my Quark-Gluon Aura. And then, I just kept combo'ing Beta Surge and Nuclear Burst endlessly.

    The first gear that I used was the 166 DPS gear from the test server box, coupled with 8 Might & Power mods, and 2 Might & Health mods. I also spent all my Skill Points in Power. The results I got were that I only could do, by average, 4 rotations of the Beta Surge + Nuclear Burst combos before my power ran out.

    The second gear that I used was the tier 1 gear, sold by Felix Faust, at the Hall Of Doom. I didn't use any mods, and I also only spent a total of 60 Skill Points, including weapon combos, to simulate a fresh level 30 character. I also did not use any gear mods. The results I got, however, were very interesting. My power regeneration almost kept up with the power usage from the combos, and I could keep doing the combos for almost as long as I wanted. If I were in a group with a Controller, just with the passive PoT itself, I would never run dry of power, ever.

    This concludes that power costs increase at a much faster pace than the amount of power you get from gear as you gear up. If the same proportion of power costs, power regeneration and avaliable power pool that this CR 52, tier 1 geared character has was present on end-game characters, playing from the tray would be completely viable, as long as you can create a loadout with a lot low power cost abilities.
    • Like x 2
  20. Black Jaq Devoted Player

    It sounds like the power pool increases linearly while ability costs increase exponentially or at a much different rate of increase. Considering the power stat we can invest in reaches a cap, eventually (could be 200 Car from now) where abilities will cost more than our available power pool. Or it's possible it could be a step function that as we would near the end of AF 3 we would be able to maintain at the end point of the episode.
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