Stats Revamp: Mental 1.1

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Shin-O-B, Dec 19, 2016.

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  1. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    So we went from possibly the most awkward PoT system to not having to even use the PoT mechanic at all??? The way PoT works now is fine why are we messing with things that aren't broke? If trying to promote a more skillful or thoughtful playstyle taking away a mechanic isn't the way to go.

    These changes while a bit better are still so far off from what the game should be. This game has so much potential but for some reason it keeps getting further and further from what once made it popular :(
    • Like x 9
  2. appocolyps Well-Known Player

    By removing the pot mechanic it opens up the doors for trolls to do damge\cc as requested by a large number of the trolling community, throwing out a pot every 20s is hardly a skillful mechanic!!
    • Like x 8
  3. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    Taking away the PoT mechanic is a terrible idea i don't care what anyone says and if you can double tick every time it does hold a certain skill set. As a troll your not there to dps your there to give power back, debuff, CC loose or out of control adds and do pickups. The weapon attacks you do in between are enough. If you want to do damage be a dps.
    • Like x 8
  4. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    There are 4 Healer powersets all with unique mechanics and lots of choices. There are 5 Controller sets that all have 3 mandatory powers that have the exact same copy paste mechanics, two of which need to be cast in x second intervals and one if which has zero benefits for the caster himself.

    I'll support any change that either frees up loadout slots from power healing or instead makes power healing a proper healing mechanic with situational powers and unique functionality across powersets.

    Right now on live, and on test still, power healing isn't interesting at all and just fills up loadout slots that could be used for powerset specific mechanics. Same problem as all these 1234 AMs.
    • Like x 5
  5. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    Thats the role of a troll, it used to not be boring back when trolls really worked cause there were no AM's or power back but all that baby stuff made trolling boring. And really whats one power on your bar for dps going to really do. If there was a extra slot it could be much better used by another troll ability not a dps power.

    Removing PoT is just another way of making things a bit easier. Now people don't have to time PoT out, worry if its up or pick it up if the other troll goes down now its just there and takes what little thinking trolling had in it away.
    • Like x 1
  6. spack2k Steadfast Player

    my concern is that those controller changes still wont make a second controller needed in raids , passive pot + not stackable so one controller should be enough on focus debuffing...
    • Like x 1
  7. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    I know how trolling was before AMs and it was pretty much the same except people would kick trolls for low vita. In 3 DPS-3 Troll runs the whole concept of Troll was "tap, tap, dump, repeat". That's disregarding supercharges but I have no problem with those.

    That said I would have preferred if they kept PoT like on live and removed power dumps instead since PoT can at least be situational to a degree with double/triple ticks and that type of thing.
    I wouldn't even have a problem with Trolls being mainly batteries if they had more mechanics than "dump every 3 seconds". If HL could restore by using combos and Gadgets by using PI and Mental by using CC/helpless and Munitions by using channels, that would be cool.

    But as it is I'll take a Troll playstyle with two mandatory powers over one with three mandatory powers. DPS will finally be back to situational and individual loadouts with the revamp, Trolls should have that option as well. Straight up removing PoT may not be the best way for that but I prefer it over what's on live.

    Another thing, did anyone test debuff impact yet? Because those are flat out useless on live outside of a handful of scripted boss mechanics.
    • Like x 1
  8. Perdition Committed Player

    i agree with trolls not be to be a good dps. what i dont agree with is that only trolls need to pick up. if its a good group everyone picks up. before AM trolls were pure batteries for everyone and some DPS needed 3 trolls in order to keep up. i agree for them to be able to CC more then it is now. but to be just there to supply power is i think where u are wrong. the way it is now on live we just supply power to the Heal and Tank and apply a debuff. which makes it very boring.. and the double ticking takes indeed a bit of a skill. but it not hard. but if they indeed go with the PoT being a passive not only will if free a power but we gain a power more to CC, i think thats the way they wanne go with it. to make it a bit more active then it is now.
  9. Darklord Kitty Well-Known Player

    Really? You want a controller pull for Phoenix while knowing that tank agro will nullify the troll pull and that both tank and troll pulls are ineffective against phoenix.

    If you pay attention, you will realize that no one needs to or can pull phoenix from its position, I have tanked this raid as a solo tank, all I do is pull them all to one corner and in doing so, I pull all three bosses except phoenix which just stays there in the same area without moving about anywhere and DPSes burn it down without the tank ever needing to agro Phoenix.

    Try this the next time, go on HL troll and show me how you pull works against Phoenix, let's see if u could even budge Phoenix from its position and I'll take your point and eat my post, if not, change your example because it's a big fail.

    Now, after you fail to pull phoenix with your troll pull, try that with your tank and see if Phoenix will budge or not, if it does not, maybe you need to pay more attention to the game and make examples that could in the least bit justify your viewpoint.
    • Like x 1
  10. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

    Opening a door that no one cares about is different than forcing everyone through said door. No one's going to complain if a troll isn't doing damage or throwing cc because neither are needed currently. The devs can't put in hard to reach enrage timers like in nexus/dox to promote support role damage because they've already decided that only elite content requires a person to actually know what they're doing. Under the first version of the stats revamp, because controllers couldn't give power out in a meaningful amount, people would've expected something different in the form of damage or cc, but if power out is an option like how it is on live, people will expect that and just look for trolls with high vit to stand there in the back and could care less if they actually do anything. Since most people don't get into the in detail mechanics like me and Dark, let me give you an idea of what "elite controllers" have in mind when we think of the old power management system.

    *Pot in itself*
    - Required awareness that some of the controller community couldn't even reach by just keeping the lightning bolt up. Most cheated and just used the 8 socket elite infinity bonus. There are even controllers in top SM leagues that couldn't even manage the basics of just keeping pot up.
    - Required group awareness for when members went down or were around a corner in order to refresh the pot.
    - Required minimum power management knowledge to avoid going completely dry and being unable to cast the pot move. Similar to in the first point, there are trolls that didn't even have the awareness to not zero out completely on their power and be completely useless.
    - Allowed for time tracking for double ticking purposes to push power out faster with a single controller.
    - Allowed syncing with multiple controllers for highest vit pot rotations along with triple and quadruple ticking requiring 2-3 controllers paying attention to what current stage the pot cycle was in and the other controller's timing for when they double ticked in order to pull it off successfully.

    *Power dump in itself*
    - Required minimum power management knowledge to avoid going completely dry and being unable to cast this move.
    - Was minimally limited by the 1.8-2 second cooldown, which allowed for frequency to be a deciding factor between the power out of two controllers outside of Pot mechanics.
    - Required minimum knowledge of knowing who dumps would go to and at what time in order to maximize efficiency by not giving it to a dps who doesn't need it instead of a healer or tank.
    - Allowed for two controllers to bounce and support one another when low in power pool.
    - Allowed you to burst a group's power up if you used a soder/supply/supercharge because of the low cooldown of it.

    With that being said, to give insight on how that actually plays out currently, here's a rough idea of all of the questions or thoughts going on inside of my head when I want to separate myself from another controller in terms of power management decisions.

    1. Is Pot up?
    2. What current tick of pot am I on? aka counting them for double ticking purposes
    3. Is my trinket up to alternate with the other controller to have the highest power out to the group possible?
    4. Is there anyone that doesn't have pot?
    5. *gadgets specific* Should I end my regular pot cycle to cast battle drone now for the burst later or should I wait and clip it with a double tick?
    6. *gadgets specific* When was my last pot tick in between battle drone ticks so I can refresh standard pot inside of battle drone since bd is 30 seconds and pot is 25.
    7. Do I have a trinket to boost my supercharge efficiently?
    8. Do I need to use a supercharge or can I save it for later? refers to the following questions:
    9. Is my group low on power during a stressful situation?
    10. Should I spam dumps to get them out of it asap or will I be too low on power afterward?
    11. Is this a short time period of stress where it's ok if I'm low on power afterward or is it continuous to where I can't afford to be low on power for awhile?
    12. Do I need to/can I use a soder after said spam?
    13. Do I have a trinket that I can use to increase my vit for more power regen?
    14. Is my first trinket halfway on cooldown, so I can use the second trinket to rotate and keep my pot ticks higher and get more power return to myself?
    15. Is my supply drop up?
    16. Is my supercharge up?
    17. When was the last time I used my sidekick that's in my inventory, is that up? Can I switch it out right now or if I take 2 seconds to do that, will I find out it's on cooldown and I wasted 4-5 seconds toward power regen and power out accordingly?
    18. When was the last time I used my cc trinket?
    19. Which of these resources should I use next to maximize their efficiency per cooldown?
    20. Should I ask for a supply drop from a teammate instead of using one of these?
    21. When was the last time I proc'd my white foot socket for power return to use my power dumps more often or to maintain my speed?
    22. Where is my power pool going to be in 10-20 seconds with my current rotation?
    23. Am I going to be able to cast pot or power dump if I need to in that time period?
    24. If I don't, what resources do I have that will allow me to?
    25. Can I afford to clip this next debuff with a power dump to increase my power/sec or will losing the WM bonus and weapon regen cause my power pool to drop to an uncomfortable point to where my power/sec will dip later on and make it not worth it?
    26. Should I cast a secondary debuff even though this boss doesn't require it, or should I build up my hit counter for power/supercharge regen for future interactions or boss fights?
    27. What power dumping frequency does this group need?
    28. Should I use a short WM combo for dumping frequency or should I use a longer one for dumping efficiency/consistency?
    29. Does this group or boss require several debuffs?
    30. Can I maintain several debuffs 100% of the time by myself?
    31. How is my power out going to be if I prioritize said debuffs?
    32. Can I still meet the power demands of this group?
    33. Do I need to ask for a second troll?
    34. Do I need to rely on my supercharge/build it before we go into the instance?
    35. Do I need to have high stat dps's because I can't maintain both for a long time period?
    36. If I have to pick between debuffs and power out, which one is going to be more beneficial to this group in particular as of right then?
    37. *stacking shields loadout only* Do I use 1 shield for this pickup or do I use two? If I use one and it breaks, that's lost time on power regen for more power out.
    38. If there a strict blocking/no attacking mechanic on this boss I need to be aware of?
    39. If there is, I need to make sure to land a weapon tap before that mechanic goes off.
    40. Is there an add and/or said distance away I could be in order to keep my power/supercharge regen going during the duration of the mechanic?
    41. Do I want to cc these adds in the hallway or focus on supercharge for the next fight?
    42. Do I need to spam the healer with power dumps or should I throw a damage debuff instead?
    43. Can I survive this next boss/add mechanic with low health if I don't block and keep my power regen going or do I need to block?
    44. Do I need to shield up to survive or can that power be used for more debuffs/power out?
    45. Is my CC trinket up?
    *uses CC trinket*
    46. How many seconds am I into my first activation so I can proc it again for power return?
    47. Should I proc all the activations now so I can give burst power or space them out?
    48. Can I meet the 1 second window in order to get all of the activations or do I cut it short to make sure I get the last one and don't go over and just get stunned?
    49. *gadgets specific* Do I use battle drone early for a stressful situation I know is about to happen or do I wait and see how stressful it is?
    50. *gadgets specific* Do I run stealth on my loadout to have WOP or another burst SC on my loadout as well if I do need the burst?
    51. *gadgets specific* Do I want to use WOP or my supercharge from my skill points to save a power point for another utility ability that could help the group more than power out?
    52. Do I need to use WM after this power dump for the power reduction or can I skip WM and just do a basic weapon tap for power regen and increase my power/sec since my the cooldown of the power dump is lower than the time it takes to do a WM?

    My controller guide from years back before WM and AM was 4-5 hours long dedicated to the controller mechanics and how to deal with these questions on a consistent basis and what mind state you need to be in and what you need to be aware of by yourself as well as another controller. Even after WM and AM got introduced, I could still talk about controller decision making/tricks/tips for 2-3 hours easy just from an energy battery perspective on power out alone. Dark goes into even more detail between his YT and his guide. All of the controller skill related decision making is gone with the last set of changes. If Pot, power dumps, and defense and occasionally damage debuffs are handed to controllers for free, there is no longer a power management aspect to controlling that separates bad, decent, above average, and elite controllers. When live-time decision making skills and efficiency that took hours to explain get changed into a 10 second explanation of "Put a defense debuff on your loadout, put a power dump on your loadout, hit them off cooldown, don't worry there's no power loss", there's a huge difference. I shouldn't be able to hand my controller to a 5 year old and tell them to just push two buttons and they can troll a random raid outside of mechanics that will kill them. Controllers should have to manage power between power out, crowd control, and debuffs, not be handed power out and the only debuff that people care about consistently, and only have to worry about crowd control which is relatively useless until the design of instances changes to be more cc reliant than previously.

    P.S. - The controller community could've been throwing extreme amounts of crowd control and spamming stuns if they weren't running around so concerned about their vit. I had a 17k power pool on live before the last dlc and I know people now with 19k pushing 20k that can spam debuffs and power dumps for days. Just because the majority of people don't know how to spec to achieve their goal doesn't mean it's not possible.
    • Like x 8
  11. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    I didn't mean only trolls pick up or they only give power. Theres plenty of things that a good troll does i was just listing some examples.
  12. TybeeTahiri Devoted Player

    Feedback: I've wanted y'all to change Telekinetic Push into a Telekinetic Pull for years, since TK Pull is almost identical to TK Bolt.

    Instead you have replaced Thought Bubble with TK Pull. Not cool. Can't you make the Thought Bubbles rooted and pull-able, ala Harvest ? Instead of removing the actual power ? And then replace TK Push with TK Pull.

    Question: How are pets now officially supposed to work ? I'm curious what we're supposed to be seeing with Mass Hysteria (and also Snow Devil) ?
    • Like x 1
  13. Alrighty Then Loyal Player

    I have pulled the Phoenix with Atomic and Fire Tanks. The trick is to get very close to the Phoenix and single taunt it. The other suggestion is to not have the main tank do a group pull, but do single taunts on the other 3 until he has aggro and the Phoenix is far enough away..
    Fire Tank - Mack Tuff CR 189 269sp
    Atomic Tank - Just Nukem CR 188 268sp
    League Tuff Gunns
  14. spack2k Steadfast Player

    C.Name : Wh0AmI
    Level: 20
    CR: 19
    SP: 20

    I would like to have the Weapon Buffs back to 12 sec and i would also want the buff Icon to be back , i missed it.
    Not sure if intended or not but the Supercharges dont display if they are 25% or 50% or 100%.

    Everything else worked fine for both roles didnt find any bugs, yet.
  15. supalova20 Well-Known Player

    1. make a raid 2 controllers and 2 healers Mandatory
    2. the SELF REGEN P.O.T. was a nice idea for controlling so we can focus on debuffing an cc....since the complaints are basically BRING BACK P.O.T. how about just give controllers the SELF REGEN P.O.T. power choice in our tray and make it tick P.O.T. the whole 12second cooldown so we can know to put it back up or know when it's down (same thing)..... that waywe don't be just batteries and we can cc and debuff
    3. it's cool idea for controllers to BUFF TEAMMATES...think of heroes had this concept...IT WAS FUN....
  16. Penryn Loyal Player

    Are Cryokinesis and Pyrokinesis intended to be used in conjunction with other powersets/consumables in order to get the extra PI damage? For example, let's use Pyrokinesis:

    The description for Pyrokinesis states that Burning enemies take additional damage. As far as I can tell, Mental has no way of setting up the Burning PI. The description for Pyrokinesis makes references to "targets bursting into flames." If that is the case though, there would be a note in the description stating "Inflicts Burning to make enemies vulnerable to Burning Power Interactions." That text doesn't appear in the description for Pyrokinesis. My experience in using the power has been that it doesn't setup the Burning PI.

    The same thing applies to Cyrokinesis and the Frostbitten PI.
    • Like x 2
  17. Penryn Loyal Player

    Bug Report:
    The description for Terrorize states it is a "Controller Debuff," but doesn't state what the debuff is supposed to be. I tried using it on several enemies, but never saw a debuff icon.
    • Like x 2
  18. Jafin 10000 Post Club

    You're assuming that people will use that extra slot for just a damaging power. For me it gives me room for an extra debuff, a pull or a stun. Sure I also have the option of putting in something to bolster my damage but I'm sure nine times out of ten I'd opt for one of the other three options before choosing a power specifically to do extra damage. I'm all for this change. I've mained a troll since the day Quantum came out so I have pre-WM, pre-AM, and post WM/AM experience and for me the prospect of having a single extra space in my loadout is incredibly exciting.
  19. Jafin 10000 Post Club

    Since the update to Mental I haven't been able to get Cryokinesis to encase any enemies in blocks of ice. In revamp 1.0 it would always encase enemies after the second cast, but I can't get it to activate after even four casts, which means Pyrokinesis can no longer interact with it by making the encasement explode since, y'know, there's no encasement there in the first place.
    • Like x 2
  20. Infamous Hacker Active Player

    Positive Feedback:
    I like the passive power that Controllers give, and the passive power everyone gets. That was a nice touch. Now controllers can take a more active role in dps rather than just having to worry about replenishing power. Those are good steps toward your goal of opening up gameplay for controllers to do more than just replenish power, and CC. Perhaps you could make it that there is more power given with 2 controllers in group rather than just using one controllers passive to determine the effect. If that would be too much power then perhaps CC could become more effective when there are 2 controllers present. Give some incentive for having multiple controllers.

    I love the addition of a pull power for mental, that was an excellent idea.

    The over all change to combat is better as far as being attacked goes. I feel like I have better chances of survival while not compromising how challenging the game is.

    Negative Feedback:
    Im still waiting for my PI set up powers (Terror Tendrils, and Mass Terror) to come off cooldown for too long. I feel like perhaps we could get some power back upon successfully using a power interaction. Then things wouldnt seem so slow and mundane.

    I personally dont like being FORCED to use weapons. It doesnt look good on some of my characters, I find it boring, and it wont feel right with certain powers like Quantum, Celestial, and HL.

    Is there a play from the tray option? Can we have a straight answer as to whether or not we will have one? Do we have to spec into power to get it? If thats not in your plans can you tell us? There are quite a few people who wont like this change when it comes to the powerset that they have been using for over a year without weapon attacks or power issues.
    • Like x 2
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