Stats Revamp: Gadgets

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Shin-O-B, Jan 13, 2017.

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  1. Alrighty Then Loyal Player

    I've always considered Mental as an "In Your Face" Super Power which hit best right after a Lunge. It can be played further back, but the damage suffers.
  2. Penryn Loyal Player

    Here are some base power costs and cooldown times:

    500 power cost
    Suppressor Turret (2 to 3 second cooldown)

    450 power cost
    EMP Pulse (2 to 3 second cooldown)
    Paralyzing Dart (2 to 3 second cooldown)
    Vortex Cannon (2 to 3 second cooldown)

    300 power cost
    Battle Display (12 second cooldown)

    270 power cost
    Cryo-Field (6 second cooldown)
    Neural Neutralizer (18 second cooldown)

    150 power cost
    Taser Pull (3 second cooldown)

    135 power cost
    Cuff'Em (18 second cooldown)
    Distract (18 second cooldown)
    Gauss Grenade (1 second cooldown)
    Holographic Decoy (12 second cooldown)
    Napalm Grenade (1 second cooldown)
    Stasis Field (12 second cooldown)
    Stealth (18 second cooldown)
    Sticky Bomb (1 second cooldown)
    Thermite Mine (2 to 3 seconds cooldown including animation)

    0 power cost
    Implosion Mine (5 second cooldown including animation)
    Self-Destruct Signal (6 second cooldown)
    Surprise Attack (18 second cooldown)

    Unknown power cost
    Fear Gas (1 second cooldown) -- I think this is 270 or 300
    Photon Blast (4 second cooldown) -- I think this is 270 or 300

    It is a pain to figure out the base power costs for the channeled powers.

    I won't guarantee 100% accuracy on this list.
    • Like x 2
  3. Penryn Loyal Player

    Question
    Is the stun on Fear Gas supposed to last 8 seconds?
  4. Penryn Loyal Player

    Here are some shielding damage absorption cap numbers. Thanks goes to Rokyn for helping me.

    Test #1 (DPS Role)
    CR 174
    Health: 21455
    Dominance: 803
    Restoration: 8225

    Distract: 1084 damage cap
    Neural Neutralizer: 2115 damage cap


    Test #2 (Controller Role)
    CR 173
    Health: 20175
    Restoration: 7883
    Dominance: 5598

    Distract: 2468 damage cap
    Neural Neutralizer: 4794 damage cap


    Those numbers for DPS role are terrible. At the mid 170s, those damage cap numbers only represent a couple of hits at best.
    • Like x 1
  5. TheDark Devoted Player

    It's actually also used in rooms that are large. If a boss or group of adds come out during a phase, the controller pops decoy in the back, or where ever the adds are, and that buys the tank reaction time. So it's actually more useful than that. It's also useful when having to hit objective switches and NPCs are present while a tank is either fast paced and moving forward or slow.



    The fact a tank player's taunt is stronger than the decoy's taunt is important. It means when the tank is revived, his/her taunts register over the decoy's and they are relevant. I've ran with 3+ players using decoy in the past. The decoy still has weaknesses by itself compared to tank. It has about a 10 meter taunt 360 AoE. It doesn't pull NPCs and taunting every 5 seconds further limits it. In challenging content, with adds spawning in various places like GOME last boss for instance, even 2 decoys wouldn't cover the entire room depending on where the additional adds spawn. 3 decoys maybe but you're assuming the decoy will be spammable like it is now. Different room sizes, objectives and content difficulty always vary and if 1 trick superiorly benefits in all of them, then it's worthy look at. But it doesn't here.

    I'm not promoting the 12 second cool down on test with a constant spawning appearance. On live it's out for 16 seconds with a 14 second cool down. As long as it has a cool down where it doesn't surpass the majority of time it's out, it will remain practical. It's already confirmed it will be adjusted.
  6. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

  7. Penryn Loyal Player

    Feedback
    Stasis Field does terrible damage. At 10223 Might, I'm seeing 15 ticks of 91 non-crit damage on a single target in Damage role. Crits give 187 damage ticks. Here is an example:


    Are those damage numbers correct? Was Stasis Field intended for normal Damage role loadouts?
    • Like x 1
  8. TheDark Devoted Player

    I don't strictly give opinions with easy content in mind. When Throne of the dead first came out and was difficult, it required a minimum of 3 tanks for the first part... 2 tanks for the last boss first where the adds spawn. I was among the few groups getting close to beating it without glitches and exploits. When you have mechanics designed with challenge in mind like that raid, the Decoy still proved useful. NPCs that spawned behind the group where taunted by the decoy and that bought both tanks time to go back there and grab the adds. That's with boss fight 1 and 3.

    This while all the while they had to call out reflect and when one tank was sent to the ground floor. So whether the Decoy is exploitable depends on the content design and how indepth challenges are going to thrown in along with it's limits on live. It's still a useful tool but that doesn't completely diminish the importance of an actual tank if the content is well designed. If content is poorly created, just like with the need to CC issue, it's the fault of the content. I'm also not saying content is the 100% focus on design but it contributes and I just listed an extreme case.


    I'm going to continue to give feedback based on extreme cases along with the easy content perspective. Ideally you don't want the decoy on top of the tank due to the bosses attacks possibly knocking out the tank when they come up in harder content. You can have the boss move 2 to 7 meters away from the tank if you react quick and lunge in and clip the decoy. Since Decoy spawns on your right, the boss will face any attacks away from the tank as they get up. Overall, no one would rely strictly on the decoy in hard content at level. It's important a cool down remains with it not present.

    In easier content you can just pop the decoy right next to the tank. You don't have to worry about anything. In fact you probably don't need a tank if you're running with other pets that taunt with the decoy.

    Bosses also deal attacks that can send pets, including the Decoy, flying back and out of range. If a specific scripted attack occurs, the decoy gets sent flying backward, or the decoy's timer expires, the tank is still needed. You probably won't need a second tank anyway regardless if the Decoy is there or not. That's a mix of content design and player choice. When these changes go out I'll still be setting up 1 tank runs, if the tank is capable, simply because I'm not in favor of 2 tank set ups. You know players who can handle tougher content are going to 1 tank set ups anyway. Same for no tank runs. There are other tools you can use to taunt. Boss and npc mechanics themselves allow for no tank use.

    Are you referring to test or live? If It's on live then yes I know. That's how i set up my groups.

    This last bit isn't really important to continue on since my comments were made after a dev said they were changing Decoy's duration and I supported a cool down with no decoy present before that response.


    The cool down for one cast of the Decoy should be in mind as it pertains to it's function and limits in content under all circumstances. Whether that limits other spawned decoys to 1 or 2 in the process I wouldn't mind. It just can't be something where the decoy is out for 10 seconds with a 20 second cool down of no presence. Aside from that, there's nothing more to add with anything on test related to it until there's a hotfix for it. I don't want to derail the thread with just decoy stuff outside of test so you can pm me if you want to continue on live experiences.
  9. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

    Please put the supercharge generator on stasis field and keep the damage as poor then and take it off decoy then xD If I want a bunker buster rotation as gadgets dps, I'd like to not have to waste a dps loadout slot on decoy.
  10. TheDark Devoted Player

    I'll be writing out a list of CC and more damage ranges to compare with players like Penryn but I wanted to put out some brief feedback.

    I actually like CryoFields new animation. While the unique mobile DoT aura is gone which makes for easy D.P.S., more thought into where you cast your CryoField is going to be needed. However, I'm not a fan of EMP's new animation. I can live with it but it just reminds me of electric powers.

    I do like Surprise Attack's animation. It looks slightly cut off towards the end. Even frozen a bit but it's still neat. I also like the fact that Stealth is now 18 seconds and that NPCs cannot see me unless I'm in between there 10 to 2 o clock.I also have more details on Stealth for tomorrow.

    PDart's animation needs to be looked at. When you throw the dart, you see the dart flying but the smoke lands on my character and not the enemy target.

    For those of you curious about Battle Drone, it delivers 12 ticks of power with a 50% supercharge cost. However, there is no big burst power heal at the end. Developers, aside from the Drone serving as an offensive power supercharge pet, there is no added benefit. No special buff that I noticed so far. While I would aim for the shields route, maybe the devs can come up with something better for the drone to do?

    With PoT, I noticed that the PoT ticks return burst power heals but they weren't occurring every 2 seconds like the last time I tested Mental. There were times I received PoT tick burst heals every 4 seconds or 2. For example and the following are seconds in where I recieved my PoT tick...

    2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4 4 2 4 2 4 2 2 4 2 2 2

    Again that's seconds in. Is that a intended? My character took no action when 2 or 4 seconds occurred.

    Defib does not restore power to caster is confirmed.

    I think the developers did do a good job with the control effects here. They've been nerfed compared to live but they're an improvement compared to what I tested with Mental. A majority of the control effects will stun 8 targets excluding single target powers. The length of time varies of course. If you're looking for far range stuns, Fear Gas will be your friend. It stuns 8 targets for 8 seconds.

    But I'm still emphasizing as a player that the Devs continue to look at NPC breakouts.
    • Like x 2
  11. Penryn Loyal Player

    Feedback
    When looking at powers based on their power interactions, it feels like loadout options are very limited. Let's take a look at our options:

    Burning
    Fear Gas - Group PI damage consumer
    Napalm Grenade - Group PI applicator
    Photon Blast - Single-target Execute
    Thermite Mine - PI consumer. Only usable from Stealth.

    Crushed
    Stasis Field - Single target PI applicator. Two target applicator in Controller role.

    Dazed
    Neural Neutralizer - Short-range PI applicator
    Paralyzing Dart - Single target PI consumer
    Sticky Bomb - PI applicator
    Vortex Cannon - Mid-range PI consumer

    Electricity
    Gauss Grenade - Group PI applicator
    EMP Pulse - Short-range PI consumer
    Taser Pull - Single-target PI applicator
    Photon Blast - Single-target Execute

    Frostbitten
    Cryo-Field - Applies and uses Frostbitten in a localized field.

    Terror
    Cuff'em - Single target PI applicator. Only usable from Stealth
    Fear Gas - Group PI damage consumer
    Holographic Decoy - Group PI applicator and SC generator
    Surprise Attack - Single target PI consumer. Only usable from Stealth.

    Suppressor Turret could fit into some of these power interaction arrangements, but it is a very unreliable pet for its PI damage.

    Conclusions
    It is hard to do a proper evaluation of these power interactions when several key powers like Gauss Grenade and Fear Gas are buggy. Also, powers like Holographic Decoy and Turret are going to receive significant changes.

    The only interaction set that is working "ok" at the moment is Dazed and I wasn't having much fun playing it. The range on Neural Neutralizer is very short and the power has a long cooldown. The PI consumers for Dazed - Vortex Cannon and Paralyzing Dart - have their own issues. Paralyzing Dart only damages a single target and didn't see too useful in mob situations. Vortex Cannon has a high power cost. Dazed lacks a low-cost PI group consumer. I tried using the Dazed interaction powers in a couple of solos and didn't like the play-style much. I really wanted a localized AoE power for this set of powers, but nothing quite fits in.

    You might be able to blend two of the power interaction sets once the powers are fixed. Burning and Terror may work together depending on the final implementation details of Fear Gas. I tried using using Fear Gas, Napalm Grenade, Photon Blast, Suppressor Turret, Holographic Decoy, and Stealth in one duo. I had Surprise Attack, the healing SC, and Bunker Buster on my Stealth loadout. While that may sound like a decent loadout in theory, I hated using it. Napalm Grenade by itself does poor damage. Using a channeled power - Fear Gas - as my "heavy hitter" left me very vulnerable to being countered and sometimes it would take a while to get to the big damage tick with the PI setup. Photon Blast is a single-target execute and wasn't part of my normal rotation. You have to wait at least 18 seconds between Stealth attacks.

    I'll continue testing later and see if I can find something that feels comfortable to play.
    • Like x 2
  12. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

    Rotation I was testing was:
    HB - Solar
    Napalm Suppressor Clip Gauss
    HB - Solar
    EMP Bot Clip Cryo
    HB- Solar
    Napalm Suppressor Clip Gauss
    Fear Gas

    Something alone those lines. Bugged because of gauss though. I'll check the damage after. Rotation was fun though.
  13. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Interesting how there are Critical Intimidation and Accelerated Intimidation tactical mods from Time Capsules BUT there is no longer Intimidation and instead Battle Display stayed as the weapon buff.

    Cryo Field looks more like Ice's Freeze Wave now except that it both applies and utilizes Frostbite. Kinda liked Bitter Winds aura version better.

    Exploding for extra damage is completely gone and that used to be the main thing about Gadgets.

    Wouldnt Suppressor Turret be better as a temporary Pet like Swarm and Snow Devil instead? How are you going to balance it without an additional ability to power it up ?
    • Like x 1
  14. TheDark Devoted Player

    Player Info & Feedback on

    Gadgets Shields

    With 5,692 Dominance & 7955 Restoration in Controller role with complete controller gear...

    Distract
    • 7 samples of a 2504 damage cap
    • Shield lasts 6 seconds.
    • Immunity to Enemy Control Effects lasts 6 seconds.
    • Usable While the Player is being controlled by enemies
    • 18 second cool down.
    • 1 second animation.

    Neural Neutralizer
    • 3 samples of a 4862 damage cap
    • Shield lasts 6 seconds.
    • Usable While the Player is being controlled by enemies
    • 18 second cool down.
    • 1.5ish second full animation except dovetail exist that allows a proceeding power to not show the remaining animation (hands going towards legs)
    • Stuns 8 targets in the 360 degree Area of Effect
    • Stuns for 6 seconds
    • It's Stun and damage reaches an enemy at 7 meters or less (it's a melee power)

    Stealth Shield with Improved Stealth Mod
    This shield returns to becoming the strongest Controller shield in the game. It's damage cap remains at 10,000 with a duration of 2.5 seconds.

    Testing with Shield Stacking
    You cannot actually stack them on test. When using NN then clipping immediately with Distract, the last shield registers only. What you can do though is (assuming you were doing content where you are getting hit by very high amounts) is cast Neural Neutralizer then 1 seconds later, or immediately when you see your health start to deplete, you cast Distract right after. What you do is you cast the shields back to back to absorb deadly attacks.

    It's a shield approach used for survival in 8 man content but mostly solo's or duos if you're under geared.

    There is also a work in with Stealth's shield. With the Improved Stealth Mod, you have a 2.5 second duration shield. If you can NN or Distract then for whatever the reason clip with Stealth, damage will be absorbed on NN or Distract (which ever ONE you're using) then pop Stealth and Stealth will take the heavier hits because of it's higher damage cap along with the fact it was cast last. However because of the 2.5 duration on Stealth, it's timer will either expire, or assuming heavy hits destroyed it, and NN or Distract (again which ever ONE you used first) will finish off registering the last bit of damage. That's because both last 6 seconds.

    I have no issue with the shield durations. I'm happy to see a buff on NN shield length since it always looked neat.

    Testing with Dom Vs Resto spec for shields

    My original of Dom 5692 and Resto 7955 had
    • Distract 2504 cap
    • NN at 4862 cap


    With 8178 Dom and 7955 Resto (a 2486 increase in Dom from original)
    • Distract 3240 cap
    • NN at 6286 cap

    That's a 29 to 30% increase in shield strength when I spec 10sp in power crits and the 151 Skill points in Dom with 8 mods of dom 8.


    With Restoration spec, first I aimed for around the same amount increase. So i did an increase of 2493 Resto was closest.
    So Dom is 5692 and resto is 10,448.
    • Distract cap of 2760
    • NN cap of 5361
    With the same amount but different stat (I'm aware they scale differently) Resto spec focused showed about a 10.2% increase in Shield Strength.

    With 11,425 Resto and 5,692 Dom
    • Distract cap of 2861
    • NN cap of 5556
    That's a shield strength increase of 14.3ish% with Resto focus.


    Player input
    Overall, these findings support info that was given by a Dev who said Dom plays more of a factor in shield strength.This is the only benefit Controllers have with the stat now after they reached the required Dom for an instance. However, can a dev share what is reasoning for providing a higher cap on NN and not allowing both NN and Distract to share the same strength?

    1. Both last the same duration (which I support). Both are Usable while controlled. NN applies a damage component & CC component. Distract provides immunity to control effects and detaunts enemies. Both have benefits over the other. Just curious.

    2. What exactly is the formula for shield strength now?
    10 base + ?% Dom + ?% Resto = cap

    This info was always shared in the past so it would be helpful for us to know what it is instead of just providing a close guess and general comment of "Dom is better." I want to be able to say by how much.

    3. Personally I think these shields are too weak. It's not just Controlling, power healing (which is more limiting in practical gameplay on test depending on group), and damage the role has a strength in. It's also our shields.

    These shields were destroyed when I used them in Oly R runs on test. I found them useless so I didn't even use any shields as Controller and still beat the content. It helps if the player knows in advance where shields are absolutely needed. The reality of it is a Controller shield isn't needed 100% of the time. Overall there are no DoTs (aside from last boss mechanics) that required a shield so I made the switch to CC powers.

    Personal Dampening Fields work better than Controller shields. They register around 4932 damage which is way better than with what I can use in my own powerset granted the cool down is 45 seconds.

    I found that I was able to revive teammates just by stunning NPCs. Especially with CryoField, Decoy's taunt, even NN's stun served more useful than the shield itself. I'm noticing an overall pattern of players having to spec in large amounts of skill points or mods into a stat just to see significant increases in that stats effectiveness. Atleast from Controller shield talk, is it possible to increase our shield strength more?


    Closing
    I have more info on all control effect durations and targets hit. I'm just waiting to finish my damage ranges with no mods so that I have something to transition over to base values. I'm hoping sparring targets are restored. Also, I'm assuming 15% is the defense on all, if not most, NPCs? My damage ranges will help me take a better look at damage tiers on powers with cool down and power costs. Base numbers would be easier. I also have feedback on power healing in content but will post that at some other time. I saw flaws with power delivery under specific circumstances especially with specific type of players.








    ll
    • Like x 2
  15. TheDark Devoted Player

    That's one of the firs things I noticed just looking over the descriptions. To be honest though, explosive damage never really did impressive numbers compared to other burst attacks. Fear Gas explosive damage did the damage range of a preGU36 burst attack but that was about it. Only other fun thing about was the explosive knock back effect. The power interactions overall among the powersets took a nerf in damage.
  16. Penryn Loyal Player

    Feedback
    I believe Napalm Grenade's damage needs to be increased. Below is a demonstration of it versus Gauss Grenade with 10223 Might:

    Napalm Grenade:


    Damage ticks of 799, 781, 1626, 741, and 753 for a total of 4700 damage. If that one tick had not crit, it would have been closer to 4000 damage. 4500 to 5000 damage was the damage range I was seeing in most of my tests.

    Let's compare that to Gauss Grenade:


    7222 damage. It has the same power costs as Napalm Grenade and is usable while controlled. 7000 was the average damage value I was seeing in other casts.

    For two powers that are supposed to be group PI applicators, Gauss Grenade is the clear winner here - assuming the Electrify bug is fixed.

    For Napalm Grenade, I feel an increase to the individual damage ticks would help bring it in-line.
    • Like x 2
  17. Penryn Loyal Player

    Feedback
    I'm feeling like Gadgets would work better if there was at least one more group damage power that consumed both the Electricity and Burning PIs. The only cross-over between the two right now is Suppressor Turret and Photon Blast. Fear Gas previously filled this void. It caused Electrified enemies to start Burning. Burning and Electrified enemies would take additional PI damage from Fear Gas. However, the "Electrify" portion of Fear Gas has been swapped with the Terror power interaction.

    Would it be too much to ask for Fear Gas to be able to use the Burning, Electrical, and Terror PIs?

    I feel like this situation would have worked out a bit better if Cryo-Foam still existed.

    As is, the introduction of the Terror PI into Gadgets makes the powerset feel very fragmented.
    • Like x 1
  18. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    Yeah especially considering that Napalm is now a dot only, it should do higher damage in total than Gauss Grenade's burst hit. Right now it's just bad. Combined with the bugged PI on Gauss and Fear Gas and the lack of cheap and medium PI utilizers it's tough to come up with properly working builds right now. I can see a couple of options for slower weapon based builds but if I want to make a fast clippy build (which has always been Gadgets' strength) then I feel like I can only spam Gauss, Napalm and Sticky without properly using PI.

    On the topic of EMP vulnerability, I feel like it's not needed. EMP is already an expensive power and its damage is delayed. If another downside is really needed then I think its range could be reduced a but to distinguish Vortex Cannon as the go-to midrange option.
    • Like x 1
  19. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    For now I would like to have the mines available out of Stealth, and Implosion Mine's range to be increased to allow for a quick and cheap Thermite Mine melee build and a slightly slower Implosion Mine midrange build. I had a lot of fun using mines with Steel in LPVE so I would like to explore that option for PvE as our cheap PI mechanic.
  20. Penryn Loyal Player

    Prior to the introduction of Gadgets Advanced Mechanic, Thermite Mine was a separate power in the Gadgets power tree and could be used outside of Stealth. The Controller version of the mine applied a short-range AoE stun. When the AM was introduced, Battle Display replaced Thermite Mine in the tree and Thermite Mine became a Stealth-only non-stunning power.

    With the way the power is right now, it isn't very useful. Restricting it to Stealth form reduces your usage opportunities. I've always felt the range on the power was inadequate. Trying to use it in a group situation has always been problematic. Groups usually don't want to wait 2 to 3 minutes for you to setup a vast minefield. About the only situation where it worked well was for ganking unsuspecting players in the PvP phase. If I'm already in a combat situation, I would rather use Surprise Attack over Thermite Mine when switching to Stealth form.

    Seeing Thermite Mine/Implosion Mine at level 27 feels more like a tease than anything else right now. "You were expecting a good power like Cryo-Foam at level 27? Too bad! You're getting a difficult-to-use Thermite Mine instead."
    • Like x 1
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