Stats Revamp 1.8: Nature

the worst thing i read in first page is "return of dog form" that can never happen

6 years can you make new forms ? instead of a healing SC make it a 1 hit transformation 100% charge change into a Dinosaur smash the ground or somthing.

Werewolf could use a tail and better animations
Gorilla i like but still outdated model
Hybrid form can be but again outdated

Or speaking of hybird add Gorilla arms morph for weapon buff etc? only changes players arms or something , let imagination run wild there are 100000 of animals to choose from not a simple dog , i hated it from day one, Dog fighting a gigant robot makes sense.

I do agree that the forms could benefit from an update or rework for creative purposes. But above all, they need to be normal moves again. Making them supercharges takes away the appeal because it's not at will, like it always has been. There was really no need to make that change, and making it this way only upsets people who like using the forms. People who prefer human or don't like the forms would be totally unaffected either way. So let's not upset people who do like them, because that's kinda all it's doing tbh.

Well but this is the thing with DCUO i bet there will be people who are upset with the new earth Reinforce update removing the earth fist now dust effect, fire got update etc ice form removed, changes people get used to it, so asking for something that has been for 6 years to be changed i dont see that is wrong any way , You cant win them all but 6 years ...

Except form changes as supercharges haven't been a thing for 6 years. I'm asking them to keep that aspect the same because out of all the arguably "unreasonable" changes that are worthy of being debated, that one literally makes the least sense. Look at it this way: You have human form and then the form changes as normal moves (excluding gorilla because it can do both roles so I can see that being a super). People who don't like forms use human and people who prefer the forms use the forms. 2 ways to heal, 2 ways to do heal. Then you change the forms to super. People who don't like the forms are unaffected, have no reason to complain, and just go about using human. People who prefer the forms are like umm....what? So now form lovers HAVE to use human primarily just to be able to use their favorite playstyles for a hot second, or for any times duration. It just tips the scale unnecessarily. If forms get changed back, human form users are once again unaffected and have no reason to complain. And form lovers get to be flexible again. No one complains. You see what I'm saying? Like I said, there's no real good reason why the forms have to be supers. That's my whole point.

Also the examples of changes you used don't match the importance of nature's change because they aren't the main attraction or make-and-break of the power. I'm pretty sure that the number of people who play as earth SOLELY for reinforce's animation or the number of people who play ice primarily for ice elemental is waaaay less than the people who switch to and enjoy nature for it's shapeshifting playstyle. flexibility. That's what nature is typically known and used for, alongside the damage/heal over time aspect, and changes to the forms changes the way the power can play as a whole. A comparable change would be if they made earth and sorc pets supercharges. Like whaaaaat? Lol in revamp, pet powers have the option to use their pets at will or just not use them at all, because either way works. Nature should have that ability with shapeshifting.

My suggestion is to make the forms like they did gadgets' suppressor turret. 15 seconds out of combat, you change back. As long as you're in combat or don't die, you stay in the form. Keep gorilla a super because it is usable in both roles and has good buffs.

My suggestion for forms is to have them apply a 12 second buff with an 8 to 10 second cool down. Have all form changes share the same cool down... Or maybe just give each form a 30 second cool down.

Then you get a play style where you're constantly changing forms during a fight-- just like in DPS comic books

That idea wouldn't be too bad, although I would prefer the forms not have a cooldown at all while in combat. There's really no need for it. It should just be a straight form switch and I change at will. I do like that buff idea though. It would give the forms incentive value but at the same time not making them the absolute best option at all times. That's my whole point. The forms should be OPTIONS, not rewards.

I just came to read out of curiocity, I am extranger to nature and personally think all the forms are very, very, ugly. But even I can see why they are supercharges, they give you role buffs, they make you heal better, do more damage. Live for example, people dont just use bug form because they think they look <awesome>, they use it because it lets them heal better than if they stayed in human form...

You want to stay as an insect all the time? that is awesome, then make a post proposing it, make the forms back into powers again, but eliminate all the buffs, that is right, just like invisibility and stealth are for mental and gadgets, switching forms already gives you the advantage of extra loadouts spots, so it would be fair to keep them as simple powers by removing the buffs.

I already came criticizing but that is not realy my style... so I will propose alternatives of my own.

-Keep forms as supercharges, but do not change back after the duration ends, just take away the buffs, you can stay as an insect all day after you cast your insect superchage once and keep the insect supercharge in your insect LO to buff your insect whenever you can. This would be my preferred alternative.

-Make forms back into powers, keep the buffs, reduce passive power over time when transformed. Similarly to sorcery and earth permanent pets.

-Making forms back into powers but eliminating the buffs so they stay as visuals only giving you the advantage of extra LO spots seems objectively fair compared to Mental and Gadgets stealth abilities... but this would be boring.


I think more people could be happy with any of these alternatives than waiting for supercharge to fill so they can have 15 seconds of glory...

Oh no, you make alot of a sense. I appreciate your feedback and response.

Yeah or course they would have to remove or reduce the current buffs so as not to make the forms the ultimate best way to play the power, which is what I would anticipate and that would be totally fine. I just dont agree with them being supers all of a sudden when they were always options. It's a restriction on the power and it's no longer as flexible. Nature already doesn't have a crap ton of regular moves to choose from, so let's not take the alternate ways to use those moves and make them rewards, if that makes sense.

I like the concept of your second idea. It could definitely work. I personally would suggest lowering the buffs a tiny bit and then slapping a cooldown on the buff period (maybe 10-15 second duration, then 20-30 sec cooldown and give a sort of aura or animation to display the buff presence) so form switching to it has incentive value and is noticeably effective, but it doesn't straight crap on human form. The buff would activate when you switch to the form, the duration would go by, then the cooldown would start. If you switch and activate the buff, then switch back before the duration ends, the cooldown would automatically as if the duration did end, cutting it short. Players would have incentive to use forms, but wouldn't constantly be buffed by them and forced to feel like they have to use them. They would have to time their switches. I will have to re-look at the current buff values to be able to suggest reasonable lowered numbers for the buffs in my idea.

For the last idea, I respect your opinion on how the forms being just options without buffs would be boring, but that's really all it is tbh. There are sooooo many people who love using the forms because of their uniqueness alone, me included, and I'm speaking on behalf of them. You prefer human form and that's totally fine. You and anyone else who does would be unaffected by the forms being changed back to normal moves and used solely for space and cosmetic options because you wouldn't have to use them. A ton of people would still play the forms that way, they don't even have to grant buffs at all lol. I just wish more would get on the forums haha.

Overall, I am glad that you can agree that there are better options than the forms being supers.

Ive always liked Form changes and this is one of the reasons that kept my first toon Nature for as long as Im playing.
Not to mention Gorilla pushed me over one jillion duos at entry Cr.

I think Form should remain regular non SC options but each form should have at least 1-2 unique powers available.
For example Roar's functionality should be replaced moved to a new ability that fits Human Form and Roar itself should be available just for Gorilla and Wolf.

I also think that Forms were better with full range of combos available to Brawling, MA and Hand Blaster.

People calling Forms to return to their old modified attacks was a mistake.
Let me tell you that this "uniqueness" will cost us in future like it did in the past!
From now on we always gonna have balance issues and every time weapons get changed we gonna have to pray or wait for Forms' attacks to get changed as well.
There were multiple occasions in the past were weapons got buffed but Forms remained untouched or plain forgotten.

Overall, Nature remains high maintenance power set.

I do agree that the forms could have 1-2 unique moves or move functionality. Gorilla does with vine lash and impaling thorns, so wolf and bug could have some as well.

I honestly think giving the forms the regular weapon combos was a mistake. They aren't supposed to play in the exact same way as human, or else why would you use the form? And on top of that, they looked plain ugly with the regular animations in my opinion lol animals with human animations haha oh God. As far as the uniqueness being a whole other parameter to balance, that's honestly something that the devs have to stay on top of, and it's definitely manageable. I don't want forms simplified based on the dev's lack of initiative in the past. Hopefully now they just understand that the forms are one of the most important aspects of the power and not just let them be overshadowed.

I think we should give them a chance on the form change supercharges before we go all in on them. Who knows maybe we will really like them. They've really impressed me with the last few nature updates so I'm looking forward to seeing what they have in store for these supers, but if they turn out bad we'll burn them at the stake....haha just kidding on the last part

Wolf's melee attacks have Brawling level slow Taps and fast finishing combos at the end. This is the worst combination a weapon can get according to the new way weapons were balanced.
Wolf's Ranged attacks has slow first Hold and faster second Hold combo which is again the worst option. Hand Blasters' Solar Flare is same combo of slow first Hold and faster following attack and as a result Meteor Blast is now doing more damage.
And those are not even Wolf's original moves since his melee attack used to be 4x Holds in a row without no taps!

The only weird thing about Forms using regular weapon attacks was Wolf with Smoke Bomb. Just Wolf could have gotten Modified MA attacks like the ones Flash and Cheetah /Catwoman has without Smoke Bomb.

The one thing I could have missed is Insectoid is Acid Spitting attack but that could have been made into a Loadout ability specific to Insect working like a short term channeled attack like Plasma Retch.

i hope they get rid of the automatical transforming back... maybe the wolf form should grant you a buff for 12 or 18 seconds, and aftre that time you would loose the buff, but lets you in the form untill you decide to use transform back... also i would rather have the dog form look like an actual wolf, but thats only a visual nuance that bothers me ^^'

+1 for me

Tbh I'd rather dog be a whole other animal species haha. We already have a wolf, why give another canine? Lol I've always felt that way, but tbh it's not a priority issue for me atm. That's something that could be possibly tweaked once nature is good as a whole.

goats are awesome... remember the goat simulator? awesome game...

I mean when forms have always been at will, which is one of the biggest reasons why people fell in love with them, taking that away for any type of "good" new idea kinda stings. That's just real. I mean we have no choice but to give them a chance but I'm just giving my honest feedback and ideas as one of the only, if not THE only, religious form lovers on this thread.

I think the only way I'd like forms being supercharges is if they plummeted the supercharge cost and gave it no duration. Like, form change cost should be equivalent to like, 1-2 generator pops. Tweak the buffs accordingly. But as long as it's close to at will as possible. I noticed that they try to keep the same general supercharge values over all the powers, but it doesn't have to be that way at all. It should depend on the type of move you are trying to supercharge

Bug Report:

So today when running content i noticed a bug with spreading when using thorn burst. It doesn't spread poisons to each target it hits only a small area around the targeted target.

Also on live server thorn burst will spread poisons to any target it touches regardless if its locked onto the target that has the poisons on it. So example...if i put a dot on one npc then get knocked around or turn around and hit a different npc with thorn burst as long as the npc with the dot gets hit by thorn burst or is in the radius of its spread distance it will spread the dot to each target it hits or in that radius. So basically as long as you put a dot on something and thorn burst hits that target or its in its spreading radius that dot will get spread.

I'll post some vids from live server and test below to give a better idea of what im talking about.


In this first vid here i show the small area thorn burst spreads and you can see that it hits targets behind me but yet doesn't spread the dots to them. The spread/refresh shouldn't be a radius on a target targeted but rather a radius from the player. This makes thorn burst kinda crappy in content when your missing targets while spreading. Nature already has a long setup time and can't really afford to have issues like this while spreading dots.



This second vid is showing the issue when not locked onto the target with poisons while trying to spread with thorn burst. Normally you can hit any npc with thorn burst and as long as theres a npc with a poison on it somewhere in thorn burst radius the poisons will get spread to all.



Heres a vid from live server showing how thorn burst should be working.



Heres another vid from live showing that as long as thorn burst hits a target or is in the radius around you poisons will be spread to it.


Its pretty important that Thorn burst gets fixed and gets back to working like it does on live cause if not its gonna make running melee dps with nature hell and very frustrating. When running open world and alerts today i found my dots not getting spread to things that were right behind me over and over and that was pretty frustrating because instead of my next move being a good burst i have to try and turn all kinda ways to re-spread my dots on things that should have got hit with them the first time

I thought i had noticed something like the other day but i was also dealing with heavy lagwere it looked damage was delaying on some targets, good to know im not crazy.