Stats Revamp 1.7 - Rage

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Moja, Jun 9, 2017.

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  1. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    All of this would have been true had one run been longer then the other, but considering both were 24 minute long runs and I was able to squeeze more into those 24 minutes with rage I'd say it's an accurate comparison.
  2. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    Assume you have 4 equal dps. A raid that has 100mil damage total possible for a dps to do.
    4 dps burn at 25mil each on the scorecard and finish the raid in 24 minutes.
    One dps afk's the entire next raid.
    The 3 remaining dps burn at 33mil each on the scorecard. The difference would be raid finished time if the 3 dps had the same burn from the rotation they used in the first run. It was shown earlier in testing feedback that dps's can produce higher damage out individually from having more power and that it could be a significant amount up to 30-40%, which would make up for the loss of a dps in a run. In the weapons run, the controllers pumped out a total of 5.74mil power. In the rage run, the controllers pumped out a total of 10mil power, both in 24 minutes. That's 4.26mil extra power for the rest of the group including, most importantly, the dps's. If the rage dps would've been in the first raid with roughly half the power, your damage would've been decreased. There's also the bias of having rage as the highest pftt damage rotation given consideration of power cost while rifle isn't the highest 3 target or single target wm and you weren't using 'Plosion or Mini-Nuke clipping at the end of the weapon mastery which would've increased dps even without a might spec. Between the different skill level of dps in each run, the difference in power management, and the difference in maxed rotations is enough bias to prevent direct comparisons.
    • Like x 4
  3. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    All good points, but it doesn't suddenly change the potential of rage if the trolls were bad. Rage has the potential to reach much higher numbers but it is dependent on other people where as weapon based DPS is more self sufficient and doesn't need to rely on the troll except for weapon buff from instant power.

    The fact rage can put out 33 mill in a 24 minute time frame running the same raid as the weapon DPS who put out 21 mill in the same time frame both with ideal set ups to guarantee success is why it could still be a fair comparison. As long as the weapon DPS received the weapon buff, the results aren't skewed in comparison to the rage who had two good trolls feeding him power.

    The other dps are a non factor since the damage they do is dependent on how long the raid would take. It's no different then sitting at a sparring dummy for 24 minutes with each and seeing who put out the most numbers. The health of NPCs don't change just because the dps are bad.
  4. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    Actually it does.
    DPS 1 = 10,000/S
    DPS 2 = 12,500/S
    DPS 3 = 12,500/S
    DPS 4 = 15,000/S

    Add has 1,000,000 health. Dies in 20 seconds.
    DPS 1 = 200,000 DAMAGE
    DPS 2 = 250,000 DAMAGE
    DPS 3 = 250,000 DAMAGE
    DPS 4 = 300,000 DAMAGE

    DPS 1 = 8,000/S
    DPS 2 = 10,000/S
    DPS 3 = 11,000/S
    DPS 4 = 15,000/S

    Add has 1,000,000 health. Dies in 22.72 seconds.
    DPS 1 = 181,760 DAMAGE
    DPS 2 = 227,200 DAMAGE
    DPS 3 = 249,920 DAMAGE
    DPS 4 = 340,800 DAMAGE

    Scenario 1 redone repeatedly until dps 4 has 30mil damage leaves us with.
    DPS 1 = 20MIL
    DPS 2 = 25MIL
    DPS 3 = 25MIL
    DPS 4 = 30MIL

    Scenario 2 redone repeatedly until it totals at 100mil damage done.
    DPS 1 = 18.176MIL
    DPS 2 = 22.72MIL
    DPS 3 = 24.992MIL
    DPS 4 = 34.08MIL

    4Mil damage difference dictated by the other dps. 2.72 seconds * 10 (number of adds kill iterations we did to get 30mil damage for scenario 1) = 27.20 seconds extra time spend burning.

    Which puts the 9mil difference you experienced at a little under a minute worth of extra time spent burning. To make up 1 minute of time to finish a raid in the same time is easy if there was ever a difference in a deaths or pauses between adds or a boss fight. You could finish in the same time but have a minute of dps'ing extra. In that scenario, you have a 9mil difference and DPS 4 didn't change anything in his rotation. He just ran with slightly worse dps the second time.
    • Like x 1
  5. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    Only thing this shows is that bad dps can extend a run out longer then it has to be, and that difference can skew scoreboard results. While it does provide a great visual to help people understand one of the many factors in why scorecard results in the way it does, it still doesn't change the fact both NPCS in those scenarios had 1 mill health, the amount of enemy health in an instance does not change, the amount of time it takes to diminish that health does.

    If you were part of a pie eating contest, you got to bring friends along, you take two freinds to the apple eating pie contest and takes you guys 1 hour to down 4 pies. You ate 2 whole pies by yourself (disgusting pig!) while your two friends only managed to eat one in that hour.

    Next day a group of different friends go to the pie competition. Again the three of them managed to down 4 pies in an hour. Only difference is, one of them managed to eat one and half pies, one friend ate one and half while the last friend ate one whole pie. Same amount of time to down 4 pies, different serving sizes then last.

    In scenario one:
    friend 1: 2
    friend 2: 1
    friend 3: 1

    Scenario two:
    friend 1: 1.5
    friend 2: 1.5
    friend 3: 1

    Total elapsed time for both: 1 hour

    The pie is the raid and the friends are the dps, friend 1 from the first scenario ate the most pie in one hour just like the rage dps put out the most damage in 24 minutes. Having different people doesn't change how much pie was eaten and how long it took to eat it. That's the point I'm trying to make. Had the runs taken a different amount of time I would agree it would not be a fair comparison, but it's hard to admit that those runs clearly don't show how much stronger rage melee is then rifle weapon dps. Not to mention the parses on the sparring dummies show this (before the last hot fix that is, weapons were buffed so results may be different).
  6. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    I follow what you're saying, but I think everyone else's point is (according to your illustration), let's say friend 1 is you both times. Did you eat more pie the second time around because you did better or just because your other friends left more around? Did your friends the first time beat you to some of the pie?
  7. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    While I get your point, you can't really compare one person in the same two scenarios because that's not the case with the raids, I'm being given different powers and specs to work with, the control group remains the same, same raid, same allotted time. So why was rage 12 mill higher then weapons if it took the same amount of time to complete? One would logically say because rage can put out more damage. The other dps are a non factor if the time remained the same for both runs.

    The rage dps was able to pull the weight of the other dps to keep the raid at 24 min while with the weapon dps, the other dps were actually pulling their own weight. Had the weapon dps been with the people the rage dps was with, the raid would have taken well over 24 min.
  8. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    How long it took to eat it would depend on the eating speed of each of the friends and yourself, which you didn't state, and in a realistic sense that would vary person to person and would go up and down depending on momentum (being full or pacing yourself, maybe being cheered on to speed up) similar to a controller's power out. That's the factor you're missing.
  9. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    The speed each person consumes the pie correlates to the playstyle of the dps. In the rage run, we had me, a fire DPS and I believe the last one was earth (need to rewatch to clarify). Power consumption was high, rage and fire are already power heavy then you have earth which is more mild.

    In the weapon run you had me, a weapon DPS that didn't need power, a celestial dps which is very mild on power, an earth dps spamming jackhammer and upheaval, which are both very power friendly, and a gadget dps PFtT which would be the only real power hog. Overall power consumption was lower in the weapon run yet the dps all pumped out less numbers in the same amount of time as three DPS in the rage run. It's clear evidence the rage dps carried the run or else it wouldn't have took 24 minutes.

    Anyways we are derailing the thread quite a bit, point is rage is a strong dps, DON'T nerf it Moja, bring other powers up. I'll probably be posting parsing info tomorrow for each power.
    • Like x 1
  10. spack2k Steadfast Player

    in ur case the raid JFA had each time different amount of health to burn in total, remember the first boss regenerates health even if troll uses heal debuff... the weaker the burn of the dps the more health to burn in total.
  11. light FX Steadfast Player

    I cant even believe anyone would think the health of the adds/bosses changes from run to run. Meaning if ya run JFA b2b everything has the same health. It doesnt change. Where are people getting this info from? :confused: Degaton doesnt have 10 million health in 1 JFA run but then have 15 million health in the next.

    The only thing that can change is the amount of match adds and lower level adds in the run. Those 2 types of adds clearly have a different amount of health but its always a fixed number. Meaning the low level add may have 500k health and the match add has a million. But if do b2b runs and face the exact same number and type of adds then the health #s are always the same. Its even been admitted that the scorecard doesnt tally dmg correctly yet people continue to use it as a guide :rolleyes:
  12. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    Since you want to get more technical:

    JFA Weapon Run: 24 minutes exactly when pulled up
    Add group - 0:34 to 0:46
    Add group - 0:50 to 1:12
    Add group - 1:22 to 1:39
    Add group - 1:45 to 2:05
    First Boss - 2:30 to 5:18
    Add group - 5:45 to 6:04
    Add group - 6:15 to 7:10
    Add group - 7:28 to 8:24
    Add group - 8:32 to 8:57
    Add group - 9:02 to 9:19
    Add group - 9:27 to 9:41
    Second Boss - 10:22 to 13:36
    Add group - 14:53 to 15:12
    Add group - 15:20 to 15:37
    Add group - 15:44 to 16:01
    Add group - 16:07 to 16:35
    Add group - 16:41 to 17:05
    Add group - 17:06 to 17:22
    Final Boss - 19:14 to 23:50

    Total time dps'ing = 1017 seconds
    Total damage done in the raid: 98,122,601
    DPS 1: 22.405% 21.98mil
    DPS 2: (prec base) - 21.914% 21.5mil
    DPS 3: 19.49% 19.1mil
    DPS 4: 19.347% 18.98mil
    Troll 1: 5.21% 5.1mil
    Tank: 4.267% 4.18mil
    Troll 2: 4.1% 4.02mil
    Heal: 3.26% 3.197mil

    JFA Rage Run: 25 minutes 7 seconds when pulled up exactly
    Add group - 0:22 to 0:47
    Add group - 0:50 to 1:06
    Add group - 1:13 to 1:30
    Add group - 1:35 to 1:54
    First Boss - 2:13 to 6:12
    Add group - 6:25 to 6:45
    Add group - 6:55 to 8:07
    Add group - 8:17 to 8:39
    Add group - 8:42 to 9:36
    Add group - 9:45 to 10:05
    Add group - 10:11 to 10:40
    Add group - 10:47 to 11:25
    Second Boss - 12:24 to 15:29
    Add group - 16:51 to 17:26
    Add group - 17:34 to 18:13
    Add group - 18:18 to 18:42
    Add group - 18:51 to 19:10
    Final Boss - 20:33 to 24:52

    Total time dps'ing = 1072 seconds
    Total damage done in the raid: 103,086,828
    DPS 1: (rage) 32.12% 33.1mil
    DPS 2: 20.95% 21.6mil
    DPS 3: 20.18% 20.8mil
    DPS 4: N/A
    Troll 1: 6.68% 6.88mil
    Tank: 10.5% 10.83mil
    Troll 2: 5.69% 5.87mil
    Heal: 2.97% 3.06mil

    ~55 seconds longer in combat.
    4,964,227 more damage possible.
    Troll 1 and 2 from the Rage Run contributed more in damage % wise.
    Tank from Rage Run over doubled the contribution in damage % wise to the first tank.
    Heal from Rage Run slightly less contribution.
    Support Role contribution in Rage Run = ~ 25.84% of the group dps
    Support Role contribution in Weapon Run = ~ 16.837% of the group dps

    In the Rage Run supports did a total of 26.64mil. In the Weapon Run supports did a total of 16.497mil. The total damage difference in the raid was 4.964mil, which means the dps's actually had less damage in the Rage Run than in the Weapon Run.
    Rage Run DPS total = 75.5mil
    Weapon Run DPS total = 81.56mil

    The supports were what actually carried the group from that loss of burn, not the rage dps.

    Assuming the same percentages for the raid comp dps wise for the Rage Run with the damage total for the Weapon Run, their run would've been.

    Total damage done in the raid: 98,122,601
    DPS 1: (rage) 32.12% 31.517mil
    DPS 2: 20.95% 20.557mil
    DPS 3: 20.18% 19.801mil
    DPS 4: N/A
    Troll 1: 6.68% 6.555mil
    Tank: 10.5% 10.303mil
    Troll 2: 5.69% 5.583mil
    Heal: 2.97% 2.914mil

    Compared to
    DPS 1: 22.405% 21.98mil
    DPS 2: (prec base) - 21.914% 21.5mil
    DPS 3: 19.49% 19.1mil
    DPS 4: 19.347% 18.98mil
    Troll 1: 5.21% 5.1mil
    Tank: 4.267% 4.18mil
    Troll 2: 4.1% 4.02mil
    Heal: 3.26% 3.197mil

    I've parsed up to 40-41k/s for 30s using rifle when rage used to parse at 44k back in 1.6. Assuming your rage is say 44k dps. That means that DPS 2 and DPS 3 in that run would've been parsing around 28.699k/s and 27.643k/s compared to 44k dps. Compared to the weapon run, where dps's assuming rifle was at 40k would've been 40.89k dps for DPS 1 (which is the area I parsed as earth which is the powerset DPS 1 was), DPS 3 would've been 35.5k/s, and DPS 4 would've been 35.31k/s. That's a 5-6k/s dps gap among dps's that would float in the range of just changing gear mods for power compared to 17k/s dps gap where the estimated parsing they would've been at is below acceptable for viable. DPS Bias.

    Doing a direct comparison, you'd be trying to compare 21.5mil to 31.5mil and saying that Rage is a 50% damage increased compared to weapon only, which has been false for a really long time. However, say if DPS 4 was gone in the weapon run.
    DPS % wise, the ratio assuming DPS 1 is "1" is:

    DPS 1: 1
    DPS 2: .978
    DPS 3: .8699
    Troll 1: .2325
    Troll 2: .182995
    Tank: .19045
    Heal: .1455

    Roughly adds to 3.6*. 100/3.6 = 27.7repeating which means ratios should've been somewhere around:
    DPS 1: 27.777777%
    DPS 2: 27.1666%
    DPS 3: 24.1638%
    Troll 1: 6.458%
    Troll 2: 5.083%
    Tank: 5.29%
    Heal: 4.04166666%

    Those percentages done for 98,122,601 damage total would've made their new scorecard total:
    DPS 1: 27,256,270 damage
    DPS 2: 26,656,674 damage

    Now we're at 26.6mil compared to 31.5mil which is 84.4% of rage or 18.42% damage increase for rage. Also to be taken into account is the fact that you ranged dps several points inside of the raid, you didn't lay a dot when you did your prec buff. You didn't clip with any of munitions strongest powers at the end of your rifle weapon mastery for added damage. You did surprise volley a few times, which lowered your dps. You did 4 tap hold into WM instead of 1 tap hold into WM which lowered your dps. 1taphold clipping a power and 4taphold clipping a power carry the same dps which means you lost time getting the extra WM damage. You used the shield supercharge in your loadout once at the start instead of the damage super. You had a shield supercharge in your loadout which shouldn't have been there if you were trying to compare damage. Not sure of munitions, but last time we checked, Neo-Venom as a SC was better than half of the SC's for the powersets, whether or not that's the case for munitions, idk, but still a possible factor. Given you were in combat for 1017 seconds, a robot sidekick at 3k/s would've landed you an extra 3,051,000 damage, which would've boosted you up to 29.6 and the supercharge you traded prob would've put you at close to 30mil to be right there with rage. You did a competitive rage dps loadout vs a half range half melee, non-clipping, support/sustain prec spec. You cannot draw conclusions based on that match up.
    • Like x 1
  13. stärnbock Devoted Player

    the duration of plasma wretch is too short to cancel rage crash. also: a visual cast bar would help to understand in wich timeframe it is even active. also some visual effect for the rage crash would be nice (rage tanking is impossible if you like to hear some music while playing or if you need to play muted)
  14. Memphis Rainz Well-Known Player

    The duration is fine now. Learn timing or use Outrage\E. Chain\Dreadful Blast as rage breaker instead of suggest to make Plasma Retch again bad for DPS.
  15. stärnbock Devoted Player

    could devs maybe do one of these things:

    1.) shorten the shields duration and most importantly the cooldown, so it would fit with severe punishment?
    2.) make violence absorbing dammage as long as severe punishment is not active? that would help to survive after rage crash
    3.) make ire absorbing dammage instead and/or cancel rage crash

    i guess rage has allways been a hard tank power, but if there would be something you can do for waiting between rage crash,
    it would be more user friendly...
  16. stärnbock Devoted Player

    realy? in compairison to live server, it is like 25% of the duration... also: i didnt say nerf, i just mentioned the duration.
    plasme retch is the only option for non combo playstyle. as it is now, i dont think that the duration is long enough.
  17. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    From my all my tests rage melee seems ok its def not to good or under par, i feel its in a good spot and any lower and a weapon melee playstyle will pass it up. And the thing with weapon based melee you can keep improving it with skill points specing into both might and precision but with combo powers once you spec full might thats it you hit a wall and theres no more room for improvement so you have to make sure combo powers do very well or they will easily get passed up but a weapons playstyle.

    Haven't put a lot of testing into rage range so i won't speak on that at this time but i really do feel melee is fine but this can all change depending on where other powers go. So in my opinion its better to not make any changes based upon any feedback even mine till we know for sure where everything else is going to settle cause right now things are all still up in the air.
    • Like x 3
  18. Mighty Committed Player

    I gotta echo Crappy on this one, I think rage melee is in a really good spot, and I don't understand why anybody would consider nerfing it. I tested rage this weekend and posted consistent 40-45k dps parses just messing around with a quick loadout. Next time I'm on test I'll give it a more complete run but all-in-all, rage is one of the most fun and balanced powers I've played so far. I really enjoy it. Ranged DPS was 30-33k dps which is good, definitely competitive, not necessarily great, but at the same time it felt very economical with power. Good job on this one, devs.
    • Like x 2
  19. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    Posts above this one have been reviewed by the team.
  20. Maxwill Committed Player

    Combos should do less damage or increase the damage of light and atomic combos because rage has 4 aoe dots that gives rage an advantage to dps and causes imbalance, especially when we have to block, lunge, activate stuff, carry, revive,(interact with stuff) etc , light doesn't have that ,nor atomic and that causes imbalance.I've sent you a pm with 2 videos about that Moja.

    Also Violence's dot doesn't stack with Severe punishment's dot, is that intended?

    Here's a taste of ranged rage dps :
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