Stats Revamp 1.7: Overall damage assessment

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Fatal Star, Jul 2, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    Before we start what's likely to be quite the attention whoring thread, I wanted to state my reasoning behind posting it. Right now it seems no one is going by a standard for balance and testing, everyone has a different idea of what is balanced and what isn't. So I took the time this weekend to go through and do 60 second parses for each power and play style on three targets so hopefully we can establish a baseline together. Now for a few disclaimers:

    Disclaimer 1: These are NOT top end loadouts or rotations. Do not think these will yield you the best results for each power. These are simply loadouts that I felt made the most sense flow wise and given the short amount of time I had to mess with them, yielded decent enough results to post a parser number with.

    Disclaimer 2: All hybrid rotations used martial arts spinning punch combo, this is not the best weapon combo or the best weapon to hybrid play with, I simply chose it as a weapon to establish any discrepancies between hybrid play. Results will vary depending on weapon and combo used

    Disclaimer 3: To tie in with the first one, all PFtT rotations were done without clipping weapon taps in between. I personally don't consider it PFtT to be with weapon clips especially with the high damage that taps now do.

    Disclaimer 4: these parser numbers will not be a full reflection of how said power/play-style will perform in combat. They're simply a rough estimate of potential and how each power performs in content is fully dependent on whether the surrounding environment and/or situation allows for it. (I.E, where you can and can't melee)

    Hybrid stats:
    CR: 201, Might: 18871, Precision: 20328, Spec: 175 points in might/power
    Mods: Split prec/might in all sockets, precision gen mods. Mastery: Weapon

    PFtT stats:
    CR: 201, Might: 21551, Precision: 16493, Spec: 175 points in might/power
    Mods: full might in all sockets, might gen mods. Mastery: Power

    (Power: hybrid parse, PFtT parse)

    Mental: 39137, 33105
    Fire: 37897, 31965
    Earth: 37445, (pet pftt) 29193, (non pet pftt) 28750
    Sorcery: 37147, (pet pftt) 28476 (non pet pftt) 26206
    Gadgets: 37110, 27071
    Ice: 35883, 27809
    Electricity: 35758, 25556
    Atomic: 35634, 28553(combo)
    Quantum: 35196, 28307
    Rage: 35125, (melee combo) 38685, (range combo)32731
    Munitions: 34952, 34284
    Nature: 34507, 26393
    Celestial: 30239 ( :mad: ) , 33087(combo)
    Hard light: 30136, 34815(combo)

    Loadouts:
    Mental (H)- Terror Tendrils, psychic prison, pyro-kensis, menace, mass terror, bolt barrage
    Mental (P)- Terror tendrils, psychic prison, pyro kenisis, mass terror, phantom flames, bolt barrage

    Fire (H)- Inferno, wildfire, flashpoint, fiery weapon, enflame, stoke flames
    Fire(P)- Inferno, overheat, stoke flames, fireburst, mass det, flame cascade

    **Earth (H)- debris field, tectonic break, fortify golem, reinforce, crystal, earthquake
    **Earth (P- with pet)- jackhammer, upheaval, debris field, fortify golem, crystal, meteor shower
    Earth (P- non pet)- Totem, debris field, tectonic break, unstoppable, upheaval, jackhammer

    Sorcery (H)- transmute, shard, offering, weapon of destiny, fury, grand summoning
    Sorcery (P- with pet)- transmute, shard, offering, soul bolt, fury, grand summoning
    Sorcery (P- non pet)- transmute, shard, soul well, circle of destruction, soul bolt, grand summoning

    Gadgets (H)- stasis field, vortex cannon, EMP, battle display, turret, bunker buster
    Gadgets (P)- turret, stasis field, vortex cannon, EMP, sticky bomb, bunker buster

    Ice (H)- Wintry tempest, bitter winds, ice boulder strike, ice bash, snow devil, blizzard
    Ice (P)- wintry tempest, cold snap, reflection, avalanche, arctic gust, *frost blast

    Electricity (H)- electrocute, arc lightning, telsa ball, wired, circuit breaker, voltaic bolt
    Electricity (P)- voltaic bolt, electroburst, arc lightning, telsa ball, overcharge, electrocute

    Atomic (H)- atom powered assault, ionizing eruption, electron flare, gieger blast, antimatter bomb, radiation burn
    Atomic (P)- Beta surge, nuclear burst, neutron bomb, energize, fracture, gieger beam (one tap on combos only)

    Quantum (H)- gravity well, gravity bomb, warped reality, time bomb, oblivion, alcubierre wave
    Quantum (P)- gravity well, alcubierre wave, time bomb, inspirational waves, oblivion, lift

    Rage (H)- galling eruption, lacerate (two ticks only), dreadful blast, blood lust, mangle, severe punishment
    Rage (P- melee)- severe punishment, galling eruption, berzerk, outrage, eviscerating chain, revenge
    Rage (P- range) severe punishment, galling eruption, berzerk, dreadful blast, frenetic bombardment, frenzy

    Munitions (H)- shrapnel grenade launcher, splosion, mini nuke, killer instinct, small package, mounted turret
    Munitions (P)- flak cannon, splosion, chain gun, five barrel mini gun, robot sidekick, mounted turret

    Nature (H)- serpent call, harvest, carnage, roar, wolf form, thorn burst
    Nature (P)- briar, savage growth, thorn burst, roar, vicarious plants, chaotic growth

    Celestial (H)- Divine light, blight, admonish, anoint, defile, cursed idol (no combos)
    Celestial (P)- Plague, consume soul, blight, wrath of the presence, defile, cursed idol (full combos)

    Hard Light (H)- chompers, spike quake, light weight, light weight stroke, inspiration, strafing run (no combos)
    Hard Light (P)- chompers, fan, ram, light weight, robot sidekick, neo venom boost (clipped combos)

    ** Crystal is currently glitched and healing her targets instead of killing them (quite useful isn't it?), so her big hit does not register. If it did, earth would be much higher
    * Frost blast is still glitched, if you use another power too quickly it'll cancel out FB while doubling its cooldown.

    Credits:
    Charmed Legacy- Troll 1/ notebook
    Cyro- Troll 2, as well as provided electric PFtT rotation
    Hollow dreamz- provided HL PFtT rotation and numbers as well as earth non pet PFtT rotation
    DCUO gaming- provided munitions PFtT numbers


    Overall Impressions:

    -Main DoT AoEs are too weak, could use a slight bump up
    -Fire and ice channels both need a bump up
    -Bump up atomic combos
    -Weapons overall may need a slight nerf, NOT TOO MUCH, I feel it's in a good spot right now because meleeing with weapons is still kind of a hard task to accomplish so not everyone will be able to pull it off
    - besides the discrepancies and issues within powers themselves, I feel dps is in somewhat of a good shape
    - I feel 35k is a proper standard for hybrid melee rotations, and 27k is a proper standard for PFtT rotations, but I also feel combo powers should all be at the 35k threshold for PFtT considering their complexity level.

    Thank you for reading, all thoughts, ideas, suggestions, feel free to post below (duh, not like I can stop you anyway :p).
    • Like x 9
  2. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club


    For specification the HL PFtT numbers are ranged combos that did include rifle taps in between, but can easily be substituted out for Impact to produce almost similar results (from Hollow).

    His melee combo parses were between 38-39k
    • Like x 2
  3. Harlequin Devoted Player

    I thought the goal was balance between the three dps styles. Having hybrid so far above PffT is not even close to being balanced. I know, I know, only pros play hybrid so clipping should equal god-level damage and PffT is for Weenie Hut Jr players. Blah blah blah. Releasing the revamp with such imbalance will not be good for the game's health.
    • Like x 3
  4. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    To be honest you can't balance PFtT because clipping in weapon taps will always do more damage. Only thing they can do is tack on a damage buff to power mastery, maybe that'll help close the gap.

    I did a JFA run today with mental melee hybrid using the same loadout and rotation I posted above, you lose so much damage working around counters and repositioning yourself so you're not in the bosses line of fire, a PFtT mental player would probably be equal to you just sitting there spamming powers.
    • Like x 1
  5. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player


    His melee parses were 39.2k
  6. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player


    To be honest seeing non combo powers excel above Celestial and Atomic in Pftt really pissed me off. Combo powers are suppose to dominate in Pftt, where as non combo powers should dominate in hybrid (in my opinion). Hopefully this thread and our hard work gets some acknowledgement and some adjustments are made.
    • Like x 5
  7. pitbullb3 Devoted Player

    Nvm. Not worth it
    • Like x 2
  8. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    And the cycle continues....
  9. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    "Non combo powers should dominate in hybrid"

    *looks at Munitions which most of the powers are nothing but channeling attacks* yeah, that's not gonna work.


    I agree Combo powersets shouldn't be under-performing, but to have one powerset dominate in one certain aspect; well at least in my opinion. You're creating the whole AM/WM setup again.

    Let players use what they want, if X power dominates with PFTT-what's the point of hybrid or weapons? If X-power dominates in hybrid well what's the point of PFTT or Weapons?

    You know just as well as everyone else if they create the powerset balance around where X powerset excels at one thing, the media out there aren't gonna use anything else and it'll start raising issues.
    • Like x 2
  10. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    My opinion is very unpopular most likely, but when I look at those numbers, besides celestial and atomic underperforming, I don't see any huge balance issues. Why? Cause the hybrid numbers are melee. You won't be able to melee everywhere and doing so even in a raid as easy as JFA or Oly is hard to pull off because you have to constantly avoid being countered and reposition yourself so you don't die. Yes you can take a few hits before going down, but you still need to watch your surroundings so there's constant interrupts. So even though hybrid melee parses as high as it does, it's justified because of the amount of skill it takes to pull it off effectively.

    A PFtT player would keep up with a hybrid because they don't have to worry about as many stops or interrupts. Melee in the revamp actually has reward to it now. Still won't be popular to do because you need big balls of steel to even attempt it, but at least those that do attempt it and excell in it will be rewarded with high damage.


    Anyways, fix the combo powers devs!
    • Like x 3
  11. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player


    What you're not considering is true combo powers like Celestial and HL aren't going to be used for hybrid and can't excel in that aspect. The reason for that is the highest damage comes in the combo on the last input. The initial cast isn't very strong compared to the final input on a combo which makes combo powers not meant for hybrid. When Fatal and I did hybrid tests Celestial and HL were the 2 bottom feeders out of the 14 powers and that's ok but not ok. I expected them to be bottom of the barrel because those powers are meant for pftt. It just literally can't happen to make combo powers viable for hybrid without a bad side effect.

    I understand you want every power to be balanced within each playstyle, but that isn't realistically gonna happen because of how some powers work. They can all be "viable" which is a word loosely used around here, but balanced isn't gonna happen in the way you want.What needs to happen and will most likely happen is balance between dominating in the playstyles. For example: all combo powers would parse at 40k in pftt but be the bottom feeders in hybrid although its still technically "viable". Non combo powers would parse at 40k for hybrid but be the bottom feeders in pfft, and same as before still technically be "viable". That's most likely the balance we will get and that should be aimed for honestly considering how each power functions.
    • Like x 1
  12. DCUO Gaming Well-Known Player

    I wholeheartedly agree with everything said here. The risk vs reward factor has greatly improved since the beginning of the Revamp as well as balancing out the three playstyles.
    Are there some kinks in the system? Sure. Are they hard or major fixes? Not really. The devs need to focus their time and efforts into combo powers such as celestial, atomic, and hl. Because since the update on Friday, combo powers have a lot of risk but not enough reward to show for it. Anyway, good work so far devs, especially in listening to player feedback; just keep listening and everything will turn out as it should be.
    • Like x 3
  13. light FX Steadfast Player

    Fatal i know ya have high hopes for this revamp but i still havent seen evidence that shows things will be different this time. Remember the tunso test? We were all testing wrong because we never were told what the testing guide lines were. And look how that all turned out. And hearing jacks answer about guide lines during that Q&A made me face palm so hard.

    And u know like i do many players out there will say if its not optimal then why bother? This is why we need testing guide lines. Its amazing to me they would change the entire combat system AGAIN and not set up any testing guide lines. Because of this i cannot believe things will be different this time. Go on test and parse and test all ya want. At the end of the day they are gonna do what they want regardless of what we say. Maybe they prove me wrong this time tho.
    • Like x 4
  14. TheLQ-DCUO Loyal Player

    Thanks for doing a thread like this, must have taken you time to write out/test numbers and any subsequent calculations.

    So going by this.

    Celestial needs some work in damage out. Bit of an understatement here. How it is so far behind the other powers concerns me. Hopefully maybe next test hotfix this gets rectified. Celestial 1.8?
    Some slight buffs needed for Nature, Munitions and HL. Maybe only very slight for Munitions so its in the middle tier.
    Balance rage load outs, though the close range combo load out you used seems OP (though it is close range).
    Quantum, Electricity, Ice and Atomic seem relatively OK as they are in damage out, maybe a few very slight nerfs/buffs here and there. Atomic combos need something of a buff, not as urgent as Celestial as it has an alternative, middle tier level damage relative to the other powers. But still needs work.
    Maybe some slight nerfs for Gadgets, Sorcery, Earth and Fire.
    Will Mental ever not be OP? Needs a nerf.

    Ideally every power is middle tier. Maybe 35-35.5k as an aim?

    Of course, I'm completely going off the original post. But here are my observations based on these, namely for the better results that you found.

    I suppose player skill and maybe player style will come into it. Were we ever at a point where it was optional on whether to play hybrid or PffT on said power? May determine some things as well.
  15. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    The issue that concerns me is Power consumption. 100 cost powers seem mostly useless in group content since we can just spam 200 and 300 costers without a lot of trouble. The fact that your PFT builds are successfully using pets that actively screw your Power regen seems like a red flag to me.
    • Like x 1
  16. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player


    Okay then For Combo Powersets like Celestial HL, and Rage I can understand and agree.


    But here's what you said "Non combo powersets should excel at hybrid.."


    Here's the problem I have with that statement. Plenty of Non Combo Powersets Have Either Setups that work well for PFTT alone, or hybrid, or maybe they could be balanced for both.

    Reviewing what I know:
    • Munitions is full of channeling attacks, there's barely any variety in a Hybrid Loadout. To put it simply, Munitions would be broken if it was allowed to excel at hybrid versus PFTT.
    • Earth is one of the powersets that can excel at one or the other. You have the Jackhammer/Upheaval setup:Ideal for PFTT. Then you have the pet setup which makes Hybrid ideal as well.
    • Ice is also in the same boat. Ice has a good amount of channeling attacks, and ice has a good amount of non channeling attack powers. So again, it could excel at both.
    So by making non Combo Powersets excel at hybrid, you're unintentionally breaking a powerset or breaking a playstyle. As I've said before: Players like to use what's most optimal.
  17. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    The thing with mental is my results may have been partly skewed by terror tendrils, which are doing more damage then they should be, especially in the cramped close quarter's of the three target area where the can bounce around more I haven't tried mental without tendrils yet but it should be more inline with other powers. Not to mention tendrils wouldn't really work in raids due to wide open areas with no bounce, they would only be good on huge groups of adds.

    I agree with everything except atomic. The combo AM needs a buff and hybrid side needs more dazing options, which is all it really boils down to for individual powers, is more options.
    • Like x 1
  18. DCUO Gaming Well-Known Player

    Tried several alerts using mental and it's still really good, even without tendrils bouncing off the walls.
  19. Xibo Loyal Player

    I agree with that. PFTT should definitely receive a damage bonus. More or less 10k difference in damage between both playstyles is a huge discrepancy.
  20. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player

    If you you'll look back at the current numbers being produced currently on hybrid builds Earth came in ranking as the 3rd best power for hybrid and that's with Crystal being broken. Earth had 37, 445 on hybrid build and for pftt Earth was number 7 in ranks averaging 28-29k with Crystal currently broken. Seems like its pretty obvious that Earth will be best (as I already stated) and optimal for hybrid not pftt. Once Crystal is fixed it wouldn't surprise me to see it move into the number one spot on the hybrid builds especially when it isn't too far off now from Mental (38,137) that's holding the current number one spot.

    Ice is ranked number 6 for hybrids with 35,883 (same ballpark as Earth) and for pftt its at 27,809 which is a massive difference. Fatal also used a channel based loadout to look at the difference between Ice and Fire in the same perspective. Its clearly showing that its more viable and optimal in hybrid vs pftt.

    Lastly Munitions is viable for both coming in at rank number 11 in hybrid with 34,952 (same ballpark as Mental again) and rank number 3 in pftt with 34,284. Looking at those numbers hybrid is slightly better but it is viable in both playstyles.

    Overall the powers you named seem to have no real issue advancing and excelling in the hybrid playstyle so what exactly was your point?
    • Like x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.