Stats Revamp 1.7 - Light

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by spord, Jun 9, 2017.

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  1. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    The initial power costs that, but subsequent constructs don't and still provide more damage than the 100 power cost should. If you want to spam 100 cost powers, just keep going with the constructs.
  2. Rockdaddy099 Level 30

    For this power to compete you would have to squeeze in chainsaw meaning be on top of bosses and adds or sit back and be cover fire. But after reading Shin's post this is test subject to change. So please review listen to guys who play the power I vote Mighty lol. But seriously. Rethink this
    • Like x 2
  3. Mighty Committed Player

    Construct Impact does about the same amount of damage as three rifle taps (~800 per target, on three targets), so I'd be careful talking about shoulds. Weapons are pretty strong and cost 0 power to use, but are not as accessible to HL or other combo powers. Again, at 0 power cost. Some of the guys are working on the comparison now.
    • Like x 1
  4. Rockdaddy099 Level 30

    High power cost plus construct damage being based off of the length of the combo equals Hard light still being out dps'd because the damage is a ramp up so by the time the enemies are dead we are just getting our damage out. I agreed with damage being moderate before because of endless combos, couple of problems there they are no good if they can be interrupted anytime, so low damage interrupted combos enemies dead before damage out high damage is too big of a risk good damage but huge risk. Now chainsaw combos cost power too? I'm more than concerned for this powerset and I can't be alone on this. Not sure if this a solution but if Hard light is to stay high power cost why not change the damage to be bigger in the beginning of the rotation to keep up with non combo powers and tetter off the longer the combo, They kinda started this with fan it has a big crit some times in the beginning but isn't consistent, again not sure if that works but I am sure that as long as the power damage is based of the length of the combo it will always fall behind. This point is mute but was in JFA on live I finished second dps as a hard light three of us were neck and neck in damage and then there was the ice toon he blew us out of the water. This doesn't compare I know only bring it up because of the huge difference based of the speed of damage dealt. Not to mention he proceed to brag about solo dpsing a raid. Not really trying to have that happen after there was a chance to balance the powers so I will be posting more concerns. Some will say just switch powers, really I have three other toons but light is my main. Not asking to be top dps just in the race.
  5. Mighty Committed Player

    To be clear, there's no ramp-up time for light on test. However, while I haven't finished my numbers and comparisons (probably have that by tomorrow) the thumbnail is that light costs more power and does less damage than most other powers at both melee and at range, and the difference between light and the top DPS rotations of some powers is pretty huge.
    • Like x 4
  6. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    He was complaining that there was no way to spam 100 cost powers. I was merely pointing out the way Light's 100 cost powers are set up.
  7. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    This beginning part shows that you aren't a tester. This thread is under testing feedback and should be posts from testers exclusively.
    • Like x 2
  8. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    OK, just continuing on with the stuns/CC analysis for each power. Please remember, I have no opinion as to whether or not the existing powers should be modified, just providing info and general impressions of things that seem weird. Here we go.

    Overall, light has a ton of CC abilities available to use. So you'd think it would feel very safe, secure and survivable currently. But it doesn't. It's extremely vulnerable in actual (non-tank present) content. Why? I don't know, but I feel like the CC abilities are in the wrong places. Here are the abilities that currently have CC.

    Light Claws - leap, single target stun, multi-target knockdown on Final Claw (200 cost)
    Snap Trap - single target stun (200)
    Grasping Hand - single target stun; pull on second GH (200)
    Handclap - single target knockdown (300)
    Boxing - leap, single knockdown, single juggle x 2 (on parts 1,2 and 5 of combo)(200 cost)
    Minigun - multi pushback (ineffective) (200)
    Chainsaw - chance of panic (haven't seen any panic yet, lol) (300)
    Fan - multi pull (300)
    Lightweight - multi knockback, ranged attack protection (200)
    Entrap - multi target encase, PI applicator, no damage (300)
    Spikequake - multi knockback (200)
    Whip Thrash - multi target stun (200)
    Light Weight Strike - knockdown, SC gen, PI application (200)
    Ballistic Assault (Supercharge) - knockdown (5,000 cost)
    Strafing Run (SC) - stun, knockdown (10,000 cost)

    Whew! That's a lot of abilities with CC! But you still die very easily in any situation without a tank. I even ran with Triage (very nice heal btw) in my loadout to see if that helped, but it doesn't. If you're against 1 add, everything's great. If there are 4, you're dead. Simple as that.

    Some stuns don't seem to make much sense to me. Do we need a single target stun for Light Claws? What is the point of so many single target stun abilities? Snap Trap is pretty much worthless in most dps situations (unless you miraculously are in a place where there are tons of groups with only 1 add, lol. Same for Grasping Hand. A single target stun and a single target pull? For a dps? Even a troll would never use it (except for debuff application, but can't stun a boss, so...)

    Light Blast is our big ranged hitter (or used to be), but using it will easily get you killed since it has no CC. Minigun has a pushback, but it doesn't work because its cone is too narrow. There was a group of three adds together, but it literally only pushed back 2, lol. Plus, the pushback only lasts a couple of seconds. Whip Thrash's multi target stun has a narrow frontal cone too, so you can't stun even a group of three adds together.

    There's a big problem with Light's CC abilities, and I'll touch on it in the next post.
    • Like x 1
  9. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    TL;DR the post above ^ Light has major CC problems, basically because all the stuns are in the wrong places, and there are a lot of single target CC effects that don't make much sense (at least to me).

    The problem with Light is it's also a combo power. Right now it has major damage issues if you try to actually chain a lot of combos together. So, if you were to add a stun to Light Blast (sorely needs it, IMO) you're messing with raid DPS bigtime because there's not really much point to stun effects there. The obvious solution would be to start with a power that does stun (Snap Trap goes into light blast, and so does Entrap) and then combo into Light Blast. But since actually using constructs is such a dps loss, that's not really much of an option. Plus, Snap Trap is a single target stun (ugh) and Entrap encases (ugh again).

    Adding CC effects to any additional abilities seems not smart, because we're already struggling with dps. In fact, I'd rather have CC effects removed from all single target abilties, like Grasping Hand and Hand Clap. Either that, or make Grasping Hand a multi-target stun/pull and have it combo into both melee and ranged abilities.

    Another possibility that wouldn't affect raid dps (well, actually, I guess it would, as far as power costs go) is to focus CC effects on all the PI applicators. Make Snap Trap multi target. Add a multi-target stun to Chompers (and maybe get rid of the knockdown on Spikequake to compensate) Bottom line, we need a way to CC stuff without actually reducing the dps of our main abilities.

    One last really odd power that makes almost 0 sense is Fan. It costs 300 but does pitiful damage. Why? Because it pulls a bunch of adds. Why do we want that again? It made sense in AM rotations because Impact and Ram had a knockback (everything had a knockback then). Now it really doesn't make much sense in my POV. Could we just make Grasping Hand multi-target (it has the pull if you really want) and change Fan into a 300-cost burst ability? You could call it Saw Blade and make it ranged or melee, whatever you want.

    Edit reason: to add some color to these paragraphs, lol.
    • Like x 1
  10. L T Devoted Player

    CC should not be having such a large effect on damage.

    Almost all of the initial casts of Light's melee abilities are out of whack with those from other power sets in terms of damage. Not even talking about the combos.

    For example, Whip thrash does about 48 average base damage total in its 4 hits. It should be doing about 60 like Forward Flip. If you're clipping weapon attacks use movement abilities if you're hard light. EDIT: Chainsaw is in this category as well. It's not doing as much damage as other lunge-type powers are.

    Light Claws is doing the same damage as single target attacks that cost only 100 power. Likewise Boxing Gloves.

    Some ranged attacks -- impact, minigun, and light blast-- are all mostly where they should be (though minigun seems a bit slow compared to other channels).

    Grasping Hand is doing really poor damage for a single-target DOT.

    Hand Clap is doing the damage of a 100 power cost single-target ability. For 300 power it better stun Darkseid for 8 seconds.

    Fan's initial cast does the damage of a 200 power cost ability. And Fan's crowd control pretty much sucks.
    • Like x 3
  11. Mighty Committed Player

    I don't know that I would change snap/gh. For solo-target stuff (bosses, elite content, SM) those two abilities do a lot of work.
    • Like x 1
  12. kAiSeR007 Dedicated Player

    You are restless Mighty, good to see you are still trying to make things a bit better :)
    • Like x 2
  13. Xibo Loyal Player

    Kaiser comming back
  14. Mighty Committed Player

    Oh my fu...
  15. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    Omg now hes in the forums to!!! You got dc fever now don't you lol
    • Like x 2
  16. L T Devoted Player

    Played with Hard Light again on test this morning again. I don't main HL on live, but I play it a bit. I played it on test for the AM revamp, and liked the way it initially came out where you could clip and maintain high damage/was disappointed when it was changed, but kinda-sorta understood why.

    My impression now on revamp: Hard light is cool! Hard Light is fun! But I can't get any sort of damage from it. For example, clipping between Fan and Light Claws drains my power fast but only nets about the same damage as spamming the max range 100 cost abilities of other power sets. Seems like a high cost ranged + a mid-cost melee should be doing better than that, especially clipping.

    I can get ok damage clipping weapon attacks with short animation tray abilities. I can get better damage clipping weapon attacks with movement abilities though. Plus, that's not hard light.

    Are other people able to sustain decent damage with this power set?
    • Like x 1
  17. FlreMint Active Player

    • Like x 1
  18. Mighty Committed Player

    That'd be neat, but I'm not sure how feasible coding and balancing all that would be. You're definitely on to the issue though, how do we juggle having the cc when we need it for survivability vs. not having it in the content where we want to min-max the most and where CC doesn't even work in DPS stance. I'm not sure where the balance is, but at the end of the day if we come to a point where all powers are more or less capable of the same things in the right hands, well that's awesome, and better off than we've been in a long time. Keep testing bro!
  19. FlreMint Active Player

    if Add.Status.Stun = True then
    Pwr.dmg = poop
    Pwr.dmg = kopi luwak
    end if

    just copy-paste into the code.

    Yes I am a noob at coding, but well I dont think it would be that hard ;)

    Vote FireMint

    Stay Fresh my friends.
    • Like x 1
  20. Mighty Committed Player

    Hey Spord, one of my testing buddies and I had a few thoughts after running a lot of controller and a bit of DPS in content the past few days.

    First thought is, there's some discrepancy between the troll sets on power costs for debuffs. For example my buddy Kuro, running gadgets can spam 100-cost debuffs (and clip them with with instant power). But for light, there's some issues clipping the defense debuff, and it costs twice as much power.
    • For example: Defense debuff is light blast or whipthrash. Whip hits from mid-range, but drags you into the target, even a little bit if you clip with recharge, so whip is not ideal for a defense debuff in raid/end-game/elite, etc. because you're putting yourself in harm's way every six seconds for a debuff. Also both cost 200 power whereas you can stack gadgets or mental with 100-cost debuffs in that slot.
    • As for light blast, because it's a channel, you can't just clip it, you have to jump cancel it, wait out the dovetail, and then pop recharge, making the power push slower. Alternatively, you could combo and clip, but light blast combos into boxing or minigun. Boxing being a lunge, again not ideal in elite stuff because one mistake trying to clip a recharge you don't have power for and it's curtains. Mingun is also a channel and can't be clipped, so you'd have to go to LB-MG-ram and clip, at which point you've just slowly thrown about a 400-cost defense debuff.
    • Proposal: What if we stripped whipthrash of its debuff (allowing it to do a little more damage because now it's not moonlighting as a debuff) and gave it to spikequake? Ideally, spike would be reduced to a 100-cost with the corresponding power adjustments. That would give light a clipable 100-cost defense debuff in line with mental (psy shock) and gadgets (gauss).
    Second thought is, taking the troller hat off, power cost per damage out is still a really big issue with light. In the tests we've run for Mepps and Moja, whenever there's a light DPS in the run, they're top power in. Compared to celestial which does similar damage, light was costing four times the amount of power (not a shot at celestial <3). Compared to a precision- WM-spec player playing a hybrid style with the weapon regen and damage buff, it's not even close to even.

    I'm nervous to suggest lowering the power costs on constructs because I feel like that has to come with a damage nerf at the same time, even though I think the double-whammy of adjusting damage down for animation time and for power cost is part of the issue. Combos are essentially getting overlapping restrictions put on them that they can't opt out of because a weapons playstyle with combos severely underperforms non-combos.

    If you check out the video below this is me in a precision spec with WM selected, clipping weapon combos at melee and at range. The same setup nets 38-41k melee and 32-35k range for non-combos per Crappy Heal's multiple tests on all non-combos. For light the setup nets 32k melee and 24k range (with power consumption issues). Rage and celestial netted similar under-par weapons results in my tests.

    I saw Moja mentioned there's a possible buff in consideration for Hybrid, and Power Mastery. So I guess on damage comparisons I don't have anything to offer because it sounds like y'all are on top of the damage issue. It's just the damage/power consumption that concerns me and a few of the other testers. Other than that, good Friday to you, enjoy the weekend, and thanks for listening.

    • Like x 2
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