Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Moja, Jun 9, 2017.
A good one can find a way
In order for fire to be a viable tank in hard content like on live DEVS need to implement dominance once again for fire the formula before was perfect why change it. And the fire shield is way to weak, it hardly lasts for the cool down it has and lastly burning determination need to have a fire PI on it
Also fire need to have some type of indication that fire soul is active via armor or aura cause you know your just out there fighting hoping it's on and the knockdown effect need to be worked back into flame Cascade. Every time I try to spam that move adds would counter you and eat you alive
Was doing some pvp testing today and fire heals were really insufficient dnt heal enough to stay alive for 2min. Pls look into this issue
If you say so.
The channelling heals are actually very useful for the most part because they were changed to large HoTs instead of tiny HoTs with a big burst. Electrics is still kinda lack luster but this isn't really the thread to discuss that in.
OK, so this is just my impressions on Fire tanking. I have not been able to get into a raid group yet, so keep that in mind. What did I run? New Genesis against the adds, but that was too mind-numbingly easy even when I took off practically all of my gear, lol. Then put on CR 166 gear (not modded) and ran Gotham Under Siege's Felix Faust and Artemis mission. It was also very easy as a fire tank. Maybe then nerfed it a ton too, that's a possibility.
I'm just going to talk about fire tanking as it appears to me (on live my main's a fire tank) here, but note that I haven't tested other tank powers on test (except rage a couple of iterations ago), so I can't compare it to the power of ice, etc.
I still like the way that fire plays, thought I was going to hate tanking without turtling but it's actually kind of fun. If you spec into hybrid mastery, active tanking is great because you barely need a troll (at least not that I could tell). In my view, that's one of fire's greatest strengths: it's very self sufficient for the most part. If your healer goes down, in theory, a fire tank doesn't mind that much, giving you time to pick them up without a group wipe.
Weakness? The biggest one I could tell so far (with active tanking) is it's very vulnerable in the first 3 to 5 seconds while you're building up your defense as you arrive at a new group of adds. You have to (1) set them on fire, (2) attack them, (3) do a lot of weapon attacks to build up your defense. I personally felt the defense was fine once you're a little into the fight, and as long as you remember to keep the enemies burning.
1. Backdraft - Bread and butter both thanks to very large burst heal, low cooldown and helpful organizing tool.
2. Burnout - breakout, whatever. That's all it does, lol. Good thing it knocks enemies back so we have to use backdraft to gather them up again (dryly). Actually, I can't remember if it still does that or not, probably shouldn't have exited the game, sigh...
3. Eternal Flame - this or reignition can go here, they're both good. The only real difference I can see is this gives you a breakout too, and heals over time, whereas reignition is a huge burst that brings you back from the dead basically. Both cost the same.
4. Stoke Flames - nice power, very important because it gives you a medium heal and sets enemies on fire which is what you really want it for.
5 and 6: you have to make some hard choices here, because you have 3 powers you need but only 2 slots left.
5. Enflame. Why? Remember the dangerous vulnerability window I talked about while you're building up your defense? This gives you a shield AND sets your enemies on fire too, so it helps a lot.
6. Burning Determination. Very awesome heal, more powerful than stoke flames, but doesn't set enemies on fire. I wish it did, but that would probably make the heals go down.
7. Mesmerizing lasso or yank or engulf or whatever our pull is called, lol. Engulf is multi-target, ML gives you a nice stun on 1 enemy.
I was skipping the ranged pull in favor of more heals, but I would need to check in the raid environment to really decide.
A. Meteor toss or meteor blast or whatever our SC generator is called. This could technically replace our ranged pull (without the pull) and sets enemies on fire and builds SC faster. Just a thought. In that case you could get rid of SF and ML.
B. Absorb Heat. This is pretty much useless, unless it's bugged. With the empowered channeling mod (might as well take it anyway, know how much the healing shield mod heals you for? 300. Lol.) it's a way to be invulnerable to interrupt for a few seconds. Burst heal is around 1k, not that hot (no pun intended).
Wildfire is totally useless in tank role. The heals are pitiful. Fireball is practically useless as well, for the same reason it's always been practically useless. If engulf would set enemies on fire, I would be the happiest man on the planet.
I watched Fatal's video, didn't really see the tank as very squishy except during that vulnerability window at the beginning of fights. But I trust Fatal more than I trust myself, so maybe increase the defense bonus a little bit (heals seem fine).
One other note on SP: it seems to be very important to get all your healing crits, resto doesn't seem to make a huge difference in total healing compared to the amount you have to invest in mods. I used full health mods except where needed for bonuses. Sp priority was Crits>Health (at least 100sp)>Dominance.
If you main as fire on live, don't trust me more then you trust yourself please lol. I have very little experience with fire outside of testing it, last time I even laid hands on a fire tank was 2011, so if you feel im doing something wrong feel free to fully critique and mention what it is i'm doing wrong, like how you mentioned the vulnerability window when you're building up defense made a lot of sense because the boss fights actually weren't too bad. It was the adds that really hurt.
Lol, sounds good. Yeah, I wish we built up defense a little bit faster as fire.
What I meant about trusting you especially has to do with the fact I main fire, but only dabble in atomic, have never ice tanked or earth tanked yet. You have a lot of experience comparing how the powers feel vs. one another, whereas I can only compare to what I know from live. Keep up the great work (that goes for everyone taking time away from live to test all these numbers).
Since fire tanking (keeping the defence buff up) relys heavly on burning targets every tanking ability should apply burning especially abilities like Burning Determination, Eternal Flame or Engulf.
New patch has increased heals to Burning Determination and Stoke Flames
Hey there Moja!
I've compared Fire's channels to Ice's. The results are not good for Fire.
Mass Detonation costs 400, has about a 2.5 second cast time, and does about 112 average base damage.
Frost Blast also costs 400 with a 2.5 second cast time, but does a whopping 186 average base damage.
Fireburst does just a little less average damage per second than Avalanche, but Avalanche costs 300 and Fireburst costs 400!
Flame Cascade costs a little less than Arctic Gust, but the DPS from Flame Cascade is *way lower* than Arctic Gust.
Could you please take a look at these?
Also, it would be very helpful if flame cascade got its crowd control restored.
Posting tank feedback on behalf of a friend that's unable to:
- Buff stoke flames 10-15% (he says the heals felt like they weren't really strong enough to rely on)
- Add dot back to BD and buff heal
- Buff enflame (he says the 12 ticks could go to waste quickly especially with adds that have rifles or dual pistols, makes enflame very situational and should be changed so it goes through the entirety of the cooldown)
- Shorten dovetail on engulf (this one I agree with considering the other tank pull animation times last a second or less, engulf lasts too long and could leave you stuck in animation during some very hairy situations).
Edit: that's supposed to be eternal flame, not enflame (my bad), also he says change it to a timer instead of certain number of hits
What's the base damage formula you are using?
Damage / (Might/100) * 1.2
The 1.2 factor is to account for 20% defense mitigation at the sparring target.
You don't actually have to use base damage to compare powers from different power sets, but it avoids questions about what stats were used. Animation time and cool down are also supposed to factor in to how much damage an ability does, so with the channeled ones I look at hits/10 seconds and damage/10 seconds to compare them. Flame Cascade hits 28 times / 10 seconds, and Arctic Gust only hits 18 times/10 sec, but AG does a good bit more damage.
Cool. I only asked because I wanted to know if we were on the same page lol. Wasn't sure if I was using the correct formula is all.
All of what you stated is true and I back it up. That needs to be addressed. There is no reason why they are bot balanced with each other.
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