Stats Revamp 1.4!

Darn it, I forgot about pet powers. How could we restrict the precision buff to weapon-only playstyles if pet powers spam weapons too? I guess having a pet would have to turn the buff off, just like some powers on live that don't receive certain benefits with pets out.

So ... But as I said in the previous post, for now, so far only those who have pet are making a satisfactory giving! The damage of the weapon alone is not enough, even with bufs etc.
Pets have helped a lot in this case!
Up from the venture they were made for this player style!

Request:

Could we get some UI elements to help distinguish between low, medium, and high cost abilities on our bar at a glance? Maybe some kind of color-coded outline or symbol. It would help remind people what's okay to spam and what's not, and it would make it easier for me to remember stuff cuz I'm getting old

Careful, that kind of logic might offend the "skilled players" lol But a Colour hue would be nice

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in its own thread. I'll just post this here too:

Feedback
One of the goals of the StatsRevamp was to make the crowd control powers on Controllers more effective. Here is a quote from one of Avair's posts:

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/the-stats-revamp-1-1.282419/

That sounds great if you're a Controller. However, the way NPC breakout profiles currently work makes crowd controlling feel broken and like a liability at times.


Problem #1
NPCs use their breakout ability even when the crowd control effect has ended.

Consider the following example where I use EMP Pulse on the Cyclops:


EMP Pulse has a short duration and the stun works as intended. The crowd control effect wears off and the Cyclops starts attacking me. However, the Cyclops breaks out of a non-existent crowd control effect at 6 seconds and resists all of my crowd control attempts for the next 10 seconds.

I kept running into this problem a lot and it doesn't make any sense. I hope it is a bug.


Problem #2
Countering a NPC causes them to use their breakout ability.

Consider this example where I block counter a Minotaur:


I counter the Minotaur at ~5 seconds and it breaks out at ~9 seconds. Because the Minotaur has breakout immunity, I am unable to stun it.

This becomes a problem when you have a tank in your group. Having the tank simply block incoming attacks will cause NPCs to become immune to crowd control effects.


Problem #3
Under StatsRevamp, crowd control powers have specific maximum length durations. Mental and Gadgets have Stealth attacks that can stun for up to a maximum of 12 seconds. Typically, your longest lasting stun is going to be 6 seconds.

However, it has been my observation that the longest a crowd control effect can last on most NPCs is 4 to 5 seconds. Sometimes a breakout will only last for ~1.5 seconds as seen here:


I was told this was working as intended.

This causes problems because tanks can't pull NPCs that have breakout immunity.



Problem #4
If you're playing as a Gadgets Controller, almost every offensive power you are going to use on your loadout has some crowd control component. This means it is very difficult to avoid giving NPCs immunity.

Gadgets supercharge builder is Stasis Field. It encases enemies and you can guess what happens when you encase enemies:


That's right, encased NPCs typically breakout within 4 seconds. I can detonate the Stasis Field, but the NPC will still use its breakout ability.



Problem #5
Why not just wait for the breakout period to expire before using another crowd control effect? Well, there are two problems with that:
1. Even if you use a different crowd control power after the flashing ends, NPCs still retain a high degree of resistance.
2. NPCs have a short cooldown for using their breakout abilities.

Consider this example:


The Cyclops breaks out of Cryo-Foam at 4 and 8 seconds. I wait until the Cyclops stops flashing at 16 seconds to try encasing it. The Cyclops resists all of my encasement attempts.

This video also demonstrates some of the problems you encounter if you use a crowd control power that applies multiple crowd control effects.


Summary
Just to summarize:

• NPCs use breakouts when there is no crowd control effect in place.
• Countering a NPC gives them immunity to your stuns.
• NPCs are set to breakout very quickly and tanks can't pull when this happens.
• A Controller's natural damage rotation is going to give NPCs breakout immunity.
• NPCs have almost no cooldown on their breakout abilities and maintain high resistance following a breakout period. Using a power with multiple crowd control effects only makes the problem worse.

I could highlight lots of other problems with the current crowd control system, but I think these are the more prominent issues.

All of this makes me feel more like a giant Immunity Dispenser than a Controller. There have been several times this weekend where I have been unable to use effective crowd control because the NPCs gain immunity very quicky and keep it for long periods of time.

This has been eating at me since 1.2 changes and further exasperated since 1.3.

Controllers
I really feel that you don't know what to do with them. That you are just throwing things around to see if we like it, but still maintaining something that negates any change.

On launch, controllers were to crowd control, debuff, and power heal. Of course a lot of that got warped by content and community, but I'll avoid derailing my own post.

Let me explain by breaking these 3 things are on test, right now.

1. Power Healing - I'll start with this one. You had a set of rules that were designed to create this "need" for a 2x4 makeup by essentially nerfing the player to force that need. I understand, since a vocal point of the community was neglected and/or discarded roles. But because of player habits, you've backed off on that. I'm very vocal when it comes to power on a controller, I don't think it should have been on them. It thematically doesn't thrive and you ultimately get converted to being your only role. You've listened and set power over time to auto, which works, since you don't have to require a spot for one of two powers and frees it for maybe another debuff or crowd control. But then you also left instant power. You've fiddled with it, giving all 8, only 4, etc. Okay, but super charges are now very weak. I don't get it, there isn't a middle ground in it.
2. Debuffing - This needs an overhaul. I appreciate the increase in debuff percentages on defense and damage. In the end, it's good, but there can be more. More that would be more befitting the role of the tactician. Heck, you could even look at stacking as a method. Maybe stack up to 1.5 that can only happen from two controllers using the same debuff on the same enemy. It could be represented with the flashing red symbol, like that one batman/lex does in paradox wave. It would create a want, not a need, for having 2 and it wouldn't go overpowered by stacking controllers, since it can only go up 1.5x. (One controller gives a boost of 1 and two increases it by 0.5.)
3. Crowd Control - This is a big one. As it should be the primary role. 6 seconds flat. Okay, but why are the profiles allowing them to breakout? In T5, that was every NPC and you want to reduce a role by it's primary function, do this. Since there are still immunities that can be given by this and hinders the group makeup. Crowd Control doesn't hinder the tank from his functions, since crowd control and hate work independently of each other. Plus, you already adjusted how a tank can pull over a stun. Why can't these things work together, not cause problems? If you are worried about trivializing content, that's already being done by damage. Having a good controller will cement the role in the group. Having a good controller that can not do his function will just detach it and go with more damage. Please rethink this aspect.

I want to also talk about stats for a controller. This is an offshoot of the whole Crowd Control parts. On live, Vitalization and Dominance are two of the stats that a controller can utilize. Vit increases how much power we can give and Dom increases the duration of stuns and strength of our shields/healing. I get it, you wanted to make stats more role specific, Vit = Controlers, Dom = Tanks, and Restoration = Healers. But in doing so, you neutered controllers of a stat. What's the point for a controller to have dom in his gear? Especially when the shield strength formula is now less. Why not just make it like how tank taunts work. You don't need minimum dom to gain aggro. Make it where you don't need minimum dom to crowd control then. Where a tank, since dom is their primary stat, still needs minimum to be able to do what a controller can do and pull. It would also open up an under geared controller to benefit from his role and be taken into content to help. Which is something you can do with an undergeared tank.

Finally, I want to talk about the new buffs through instant power. These don't make sense. It should be a flat damage increase, independent of precision or might and not going to the lowest power cost. The reason being, a role, any role, that is primarily using his weapons would never be the lowest power pool and a pftt player would never be using precision. So the only play style that benefits this would be hybrid. But the ones with the lowest power would mostly be pftt. So it just goes to waste, unless the hybrid is intentionally emptying his power bar to get the bonus.

In the end of it all, I really feel that you need to create an actual guideline for what you see a controller going to do and stick to it. Not just throwing changes here and there and hoping they will stick.

I was testing a lower CR geared player and noticed something that is causing issues at higher level and creates a balance issue too.

I created a character that was 52cr with full T1 gear. Two points that are the issue:

1. Play from the tray is VERY viable with very little skill points and stats. VERY viable. At 176, I would barely be able to get a full rotation off, before having no power. The scaling on power consumption has too high of an exponential curve. This should be a flat increase. THIS IS A PROBLEM. I understand the whole 1:1 skillpoints to cr, but there is none here. You have to pretty much max out every aspect of power to get a good pftt loadout to work.
2. Damage between powersets are very close at lower CRs. Nature, which is still parsing a little higher, was getting only a slight increase over Gadgets. Which at 176, is a bigger gap than it should be. A good rotation with Gadgets at 176, I can't get past 16k/s, while an easy rotation with Nature same level I get 20~21k/s. While at 52CR, I did a very simple spam rotation and was getting around 850/s for Gadgets and Nature about 900/s. This is definitely a scaling issue and if left like this, it will ALWAYS be a balance issue.

I posted this in the other thread but I'll put it here too. Essentially, I really like the new group buff mechanic and I think it makes a lot of sense. If anything, Hybrids benefit the least from the group buffs.

PftT users are the ones most likely to be low on power because of their constant casting to maintain DPS. Thus, they are most likely to get the burst power heals from their Controller since burst power now goes to the group members with the lowest percentage of power remaining (rather than absolute value). This is good since burst power heals benefit PftT users more than Hybrids or Weapon Specialists anyway.

Weapon Specialists are the ones most likely to be full on power because they are constantly using weapon attacks. Thus, they are most likely to get the group Precision buff from their Controller since the group buffs go to the group members with the highest percentage of power remaining. This is good since burst power heals aren't likely to go to them and don't benefit them all that much anyways.

Group power heals used to benefit PftT more then the other DPS styles. Now they benefit everyone more equally.

Edit misunderstanding.

I think a flat percentage damage increase, like trinkets are supposed to do, would be better suited for this.

I do also think it should be all 8 members getting it. That or two trolls give it to separate 4, that way more than one troll would benefit the whole group.

B, not 100% sure, but I've seen some folks saying power back and weapon buff do not necessarily hit the same set of people.

Actually, you are right, it goes to highest percentage of power, not lowest. So in a way, this is supposed to counter pftt and increase players damage.

Then it should be still flat damage increase.

Unfortunately I can't correct my mistake in the big post above.

If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that a PftT user who is always low on Power will never get the group buff since their power is always too low. And when that PftT user actually runs out, they'll have to use their weapon but still won't be getting the group buff since their power is empty. And you're saying this is unfair for the PftT user.

Unfair in the sense that a Weapon Specialist (as in someone who is truly using their weapon for the majority of their damage) will always be getting the group buff and rarely getting power heals because their power will be close to full, but they can still choose to use abilities whenever they feel like it (since their power is close to full).

But you have to remember that as their power gets low, they'll no longer be getting the group buff. And as their power runs out, they'll have to use their weapon again but won't have the benefit of the group buff anymore. So really, it behooves the Weapon Specialist to stick to their style rather than try to double dip.

And as for Hybrids, they can never really be sure that they're getting either buff (power or precision) since their power bar is going to be somewhere in the middle. They might get a power heal some of the time and they might get a group buff at other times. This uncertainty sounds like a good trade-off for being a Hybrid.

Sorry, I misunderstood the design of the buff and all I think it should still be a flat damage increase. I see the idea of it now and my views changed. I unfortunately can't edit my initial post.

Welcome to the club only difference I'm light and being a controller will be horrible.

I do not like that the meta has not changed one bit out of everything that has changed.
You can still burn around mechanics... which is not good.
5111 and even 611 is possible lol in some raids.

This update is a wet dream for most dps (combo powers excluded).

Healing will need an increase along with NPCS in raids.
They are way too weak yet again stated. They don't pose a challenge for 5111 raid groups. Even certain Elite Raids.
That doesn't mean healing is sufficient. It means burn is too strong.

Alerts and Elite Alerts will be tested soon ^.^

Also this testing will lead us back to square one with no set baseline.
If all play styles with each powerset can hit an average of 20k in content and on the dummies I think that it'd be a good baseline to set the pace of combat while weeding out the imbalances

This is something that I'd like to see discussed more in-depth. We have all these threads about each power set which is great for discussing specific powers and how the changes affect the overall flow of each particular power. However, this revamp is not just about stats. The dev team seems to be taking the game and its roles in a slightly new direction. I'm not opposed to this by any means, if there are issues that need fixed, I applaud the attempt to address them while you guys are tweaking so much of the code at once.

I wish we had threads designated not just to Light/Nature/Rage/etc, but also one for Tanking/Healing/Controlling/Damaging. If the roles are being revamped, the intentions for each should be made clear.

Penryn posted a quote above about what the intention seemed to be for controllers moving forward and yet each time a controller set revamp happens, the ability to control seems to be lessened. There's already talk in the Light thread about removing CC abilities from some powers in order to increase their damage output. While no final decision has been made there, the fact that the option was given out makes me wonder what exactly the dev team is planning for this role. I am also concerned about how these changes will affect older content. If at-level teams go into Assault & Battery, for instance, is a controller going to be able to lock down those Manhunters in the final fight? Are their cooldowns going to allow that? Are their powers going to hit enough targets? Is the expectation the tanks do that now? If so...what is a controller's purpose besides standing in the room and giving the team passive power over time?

I know there is a lot of angry feedback coming at the team right now, and I do not want to add to that, but a little guidance on the vision that you guys have planned for each role once this revamp is in place would be nice to have.

Got to play on test I absolutely love the revamp so far dps wise can't wait to see what y'all do with quantum. P.s. rage still needs love in it's ranged department. edit someone els suggested this guy as a sc to replace mangle make it happen!

I agree that the devs need to decide exactly what their vision is for controllers and make them just as indispensable as tanks and healers.

1. Are controllers needed for power? Yes. At the same time, it's the most boring job in the universe. We literally press one button now to handle that responsibility. Plus, I feel like the community is deliberately turning trolls into batteries again. Basically, devs increased the amount of power trolls give? Then players decide to use more power-hungry loadouts, basically forcing you to focus on power out and nothing more. If that's our whole role, then you really need to make it more interesting. It doesn't feel good to be a troll, that's for sure.

2. Are controllers needed for buffs? This would make us appreciated, but buffs would really have to matter. I feel that current buffs don't do enough in that department. Right now, all we can do is buff precision, which leaves out groups running PftT and doesn't really make us essential in content (why not just burn 10% harder and skip having a troll, you know?). I'd rather see a groupwide overall damage buff. Other good buffs would be AoE defense debuffs, AoE attack debuffs, group healing buffs, tank defense buffs, etc. In other words, give us more tools to work with that really have a serious impact on the fight. And make the numbers count. Bottom line: make having a troll's buffs/debuffs the difference between success and failure in a close raid, not just something that makes burn faster.

3. Are controllers needed for stuns? That's the idea, but with NPC breakout profiles we're not masters of control, just glorified dps. Think what quantum trollers were like on live (those beautiful adds stunned in the air for 10+ seconds) for an idea of what we want to be able to do with adds. It would be cool if we could even stun bosses for 4 seconds with a high CD single target stun. It would make the difference between a wipe and not when picking up the tank. Of course, if you're trying to push 2 tank raids, then that idea isn't really necessary. Just a cool thought.

+ Shields are too weak...Got 1shotted in olympus many times...And they say shields are fine...