Stats Revamp 1.4 - Rage Feedback

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Moja, Feb 24, 2017.

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  1. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

    Not a rage person but posting this here at someone else's request. I have another thread where I did a damage comparison per power cost comparison between the powers and wanted to expand on one thing for rage because I noticed a small mistake I made and wanted to test correcting it and how much it would change things.

    Test was done using a 60s parse with a full power spec for all the powers to see their damage/sec and how much power I had left over. @166cr*
    Original finding *using Bloodlust for Rage in the ranged rotation*

    I noticed that technically for leaning PftT I wouldn't benefit from bloodlust so that it was technically wasted power for this test (even though it would be useful in an actual instance as shown later).

    So decided to run the parses again:

    1st parse - w/o bloodlust and clipping dreadful blast with itself, rfile tapping in the transition after laying my PI again - damage was the same, I was able to make a 60s parse, however, at that moment, I was not able to even cast galing eruption again because I was basically 3% on power.

    2nd parse - w/o bloodlust and clipping dreadful blast with itself, not rifle tapping in the transition - damage was the same, slightly short of a 60s read, ~55 seconds like atomic.

    3rd parse - w/o bloodlust and not clipping dreadful blast with itself but letting the animation play out and using rifle tap between each use to ensure the animation was done - damage dropped into the 6k's but I had full power.

    1st parse - If I was that low, even if I used a soder, I wouldn't be able to make the next 60s given soders aren't 100% power. I also would not have made it to 60s if it wasn't for replenishing in my weapon and reserve tank. If either of those was a dps mod, I'd be short.

    2nd parse - rifle tapping was a difference in the power management by a few seconds.

    3rd parse - Rage is only an actual PftT when you let the animations play out like with Atomic, and using weapon taps can keep you close to full power like I was able to do with Ice. However, Atomic's 100% power rotation put me down to 6k dps, Rage put me down to 6-6.5k dps, while Ice was still at 7-7.1k. Rage at 6-6.5k is the same damage as HL was, but both are still under 7k and still under 8k damage for sorc and nature.

    What should be done in order to fix this is between you rage mains, I'm just sharing relative data.

    Video of the 3 new parses:

    Video of the rotations of the other powers in comparison is in my other thread.
    • Like x 3
  2. Moja Developer

    Thanks for posting this
  3. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player

    Hey Moja, can yall look into making Galling Eruption long ranged?

    I think it's fair since Galling Eruption is high power-cost move now.
  4. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    You didnt quote me and I didnt get notification so I just saw this reply.

    I double checked and you are correct that Severe Punishment has 10 sec cooldown at Live server.
    The only way to survive a wave of adds attacking you during the 2sec vulnerability is if you have stacked huge amount of Health from spamming abilities earlier while also managing to pop immunity and block so you can be relatively safe from getting CC-ed . That is for Live Server Rage tank.

    Now that vulnerability window is 4 sec at Test Server, that is not just a small risk gap to fill but it just screams inconsistency.
    Of all you suggestions, probably using CC aka poping a Chronometric Emitter would be my best option for adds. Make sure not to nerf these!
  5. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Thanks for your hard work on this. One quick question. When you (and others) say you're specced for full power, what do you mean exactly? How many sp's into power? Full power-only mods in gear, or might/power combination mods? I'm just wondering for testing purposes. Thanks again.
    • Like x 1
  6. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

    for the test i did, might/pow 8 mods. reserve tank, replenishing weapon socket, 175sp in power. i have 20 points in crit chance, 19 in crit damage, 1 point in rifle for the tap, 1 in movement, and 175 in power. I'm sitting at 45k power base at 166cr.

    That's why I know power costs are messed up for combos competitive wise, because I'm maxed and I'm still having problems xD The only extra power I could get are from generator mods (i have the 6.2's already so i'd have to run content) or an energy soder.
    • Like x 3
  7. hotsizz1e03 Committed Player

    exactly why i think VITALIZATION itself is messed up.. i saw a video u had on your channel, you had 1 troll goin thru a rotation on sparring target and he cant even fill your power bar up.. our power pool has nearly doubled and even tripled what we have on LIVE, and somehow VITALIZATION has stayed the same for the most part. VITALIZATION hasnt been scaled to match the large power pools we now have.. Just dont see how 300-500 ticks does anything to our power pools especially when power cost are roughly 3000-6000..
  8. Pults Loyal Player

    But don't you see the point I'm trying to make? The prolonged cooldown will most likely kill the way I and many others like to play in favor of giving you the diaper variant not just as an option but as the "right" way to play.
    • Like x 1
  9. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    Ok heres some feedback on rage from a range pov. So in the vid below i was trying to create a more realistic skill point spec, somethings closer to what i would really use if this was live. I had all my crits, my might and power were split half and half (69 might ,68power) and my gear was might,might power, might health to match all the sockets.

    Now i tried this with one troll but it didn't work out and i couldn't keep my power up but with 2 trolls playing the battery role i was able to keep up. Keep in mind i use this same spec to play other PftT loadouts with one troll and while i do have to mange power at times and depending what im using i can still keep a rotation going but not with rage.

    I'm kinda ok with things having to use two trolls cause from almost everything i've tested 2 trolls is going to be the standard cause running the best things while still having proper stats requires two trolls. But compared to the power hungry laodouts of other powers that can reach these same numbers rage takes the most power. And you have to consider i'm at the dummies if i had to breakout just once i would more then likely be struggling for power or very close to it. Another thing is the trolls i had where playing battery and if they weren't i wouldn't be able to keep this rotation going where as a power like elec even with a more power hungry setup i'd still be ok.

    With rage it seems the best way to play is from the tray and imo thats how rage should be played anyway. And like i said in my last post it really needs a burst aoe power to clip with dreadful blast so your not standing there waiting for it to cooldown. In the vid i used the pull but its not a reliable dps power cause it seems not to hit all targets unless perfectly centered in the adds in dps stance and its a pull common lol. Or give us another combo, please no channels though....or what i would personally love it to have is plasma retch jump cancelable again. That would make the range loadout feel so good :D

    My end thought here is the power cost needs to come down a bit but the damage really can't be touched on dreadful blast or Galling eruption cause right now its sits right in the area of where other good powers are and we don't want to ruin that.

    Let me get into melee for a quick min, man the power costs are insane. There is some wiggle room where the damage can come down a bit in exchange for a lower power cost but not by much. Power costs are gonna have to drastically come down for melee to be usable. Right now you can do like 5 combos and your dry and that just don't cut it. You can't expect anyone to want to play like that.

    Quick clip of melee. This is with all crits and 175 in power (you should never have to spec that much power and if you do you certainly should not be running out of power) and might mods in my gear and 2 battery trolls. Still with all that power and two trolls i don't get much use out of melee. Like i said theres some wiggle room to lower the damage some in exchange for some power but don't kill it. I feel a true melee rotation like this should yield numbers around 25kish even 26k would be acceptable by me cause you get interrupted a bunch and really don't put those numbers up consistently and even in areas that you can you should be rewarded for melee vs the guy standing in the back playing it safe.
    • Like x 5
  10. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    Oh i forgot to mention with the ranged hybrid rotation power isn't really a issue with 2 trolls but with PftT it is unless both trolls play as a battery. PftT comes out a bit on top dps wise but if running 2 trolls you can spec some more might with a hybrid and equal the damage out.

    Is super late and i just wanted to clarify that. Theres prob other things i wasn't clear about either but cut me a break iv'e been up since 9am and its 5:47am. Just ask if you have a question about something i said. I'll come back and check it over when im aware of my surrounding and correct any mistakes :p
  11. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Could Relentless Anger use exactly the same animation as Extra Measure ?
    Its really empty without the giant construct maces.
  12. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    I find the animation pretty dull to. Something that bothers me about it is that you cant use it for a range laodout cause you lunge at things and thats not always ideal. It should viable for whatever loadout your using.

    But who are we kidding i don't even have enough power to use a few combos never mind a super builder:p
  13. HoiiowDreamz Dedicated Player

    Yeh, that's from the attempt to dissuade controllers from being energy battery. If we had strong dumps like on live, it wouldn't be a problem for 1-2, maybe 3 trolls for the extreme loadouts, but without energy batteries, you need more self-power regen or lower cost for combo powers since they need to clip to keep up in damage.

    EDIT: or they need to make it like how AM was where every ability was a trigger for power back so if I clipped faster my total regen was the same but the speed also increased. Me clipping and not clipping dreadful shows that the passive regen from power spec'ing is a steady rate and not on-hit like how AM is on live.
  14. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    OK, let me start by saying my fingers are killing me. This has to do with what some are saying about rage's power costs. Basically, what I discovered is that it's consuming more power because the attacks happen much faster than other powersets. Here's the data. All powers were tested on the same toon at 173 CR, with 135 sp into power, power/might mods, etc., although none of that matters cause we're only testing power times, not damage.

    I understand that latency may come into play when testing these powers and their damage times, so I invite others to double check the results on their own setups. Also, I have no preference toward any powerset, so I was pushing the buttons as fast as possible for all powers. Again, you're welcome to double check the results. I only tested powers that were spammable (0.5 sec cooldown) or combo powers clipped into each other. Your rotations may be different, and that's fine.

    The number on the left is the number of button presses, not total hits since some powers hit multiple times. In parenthesis is the total time recorded in the parser.
    4 (3 seconds) 10 (9.1) 20 (19.1) 60 (59)

    Voracious Plants~ (~ means I had to remove 3 seconds after running from the dummy to compensate for DoT effects)
    4 (~4.0) 10 (~10) 20 (~19.1) 60 (~60.1)

    Psychic Shock~
    4 (4.0) 10 (10.4) 20 (21.6) 60 (65.6)
    T. Push
    4 (3.2) 10 (9.6) 20 (20.4) 60 (62.9)
    T. Tendrils~ (these were a pain since the stupid tendrils fly around and sometimes hit again after finishing)
    4 (3.0) 10 (8.8) 20 (18.5) 60 (57.2)
    4 (2.7) 10 (8.3) 20 (17.7) 60 (55.1)

    Sticky Bomb (ability cost limited total number of uses)
    4 (3.0) 10 (8.9)
    Paralyzing Dart
    4 (3.0) 10 (9.1) 20 (19.1) 60 (59.1)
    Gauss Grenade
    4 (3.1 ) 10 (9.1)
    Napalm Grenade~
    4 (3.7 ) 10 (9.7)

    Tesla Blast
    4 (4.2) 10 (13) 20 (27.1) 60 (82.2)
    4 (3.1) 10 (9.0) 20 (19) 60 (59.1)
    4 (4.4) 10 (13.2) 20 (27.4) 60 (85)
    Spark B.
    4 (3.2) 10 (9.0) 20 (19.6) 60 (61.2)

    Nuclear Burst
    3 (2.0)
    Beta Surge
    3 (2.1)
    Combo N. Burst clipped with Beta Surge (CDs required clipping 2 combos together)

    6 (4.3) 10 (8.2) 20 (17.4) 60 (53.9)
    Thermoc. Detonation
    3 (2.1)
    Atom S.
    3 (2.6)
    Combo Thermoc. D. clipped with Atom S. (60 straight though, pretty awesome right? lol)
    6 (4.9) 10 (7.7) 20 (17.5) 60 (56.0)
    Atomic Reor.
    4 (2.9) 10 (8.8) 20 (17.5) 60 (52.6)
    4 (3.9) 10 (9.1) 20 (19.7)
    Particle Beam (Note: tooltip says 0.5 sec CD, but it's closer to 1.0, just fyi)
    4 (5.4) 10 (16.7) 20 (32.5)
    Antim. Bomb
    4 (3.0) 10 (9.1) 20 (19)

    I apologize for not getting to 60 with some of the spammable powers, I only had 10 minutes left because of the server shutdown.

    2 (1.0)
    7 (2.5)
    Frenzy c/ Revenge c/Frenzy
    10 (4.3) 20 (9.8) 54 (28.7) !
    2 (0.7)
    10 (8.5) 20 (17.9)
    Rage Blast
    4 (4.6)
    Dreadful Blast
    10 (9.6)
    Dreadful Blast c/ Revenge c/D.B. (I think that DB c/ e-chain would've been faster)
    28 (23.7)

    The server shutdown kept me from getting to Sorcery and with Light I had no idea how to test the number of presses/hits per second.

    So what I'm seeing as a conclusion is basically this, three options:
    1. The devs slow down rage's moves, making them take longer to pull off for the same power cost/damage.
    2. The devs keep them at the same fast pace, but reduce combo costs to 50 instead of 100, also lowering damage to match.
    3. Things stay the way they are, and we have to manually slow ourselves down for PftT or clip additional weapon attacks in rotations for Hybrid.

    I personally prefer option 3, mainly because I love the burst potential of (melee) rage. It's supposed to be an intense flurry of action, at least in my view. Plus, it means that we get first dibs on new adds, tearing them apart faster than other powersets, and regening power afterwards.
    • Like x 2
  15. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Lol, that's a lot of power. Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure if people were using just straight power mods instead of might/power.
  16. Karasawa Loyal Player

    HL has the same problem. The combos only cost 100 power but you can perform some of them multiple times per second. The combos should be balanced to consume a set amount of power per second if you're performing them at max speed.

    So for example, spamming Tesla Blast will consume 100 power per second so doing a HL infinite rotation should also consume 100 power per second, even if the attacks come out faster than once per second.
    • Like x 1
  17. hotsizz1e03 Committed Player

    YES!!! agreed... imagine!!!:)
  18. Nemisor Committed Player

    be good if we could get some feedback from the devs on what they think they might change so far based on all of our comments.

    im getting a bit worried itl turn out like all the other rage updates:

    devs: "hey heres some changes, let us know what you think"

    us: "not good, lets fix it"

    devs: "lol nope"
    • Like x 2
  19. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    In regards to these tests, they go silent usually means they are hitting the drawing board or their computers to fix. When they talk is usually right after an update patch hits test. To garner responses to previous posts. There really was a lot of feedback (mixed with off topic) for just these 3 powers alone.

    Let's see what Avair or any other dev says after the next patch hits test.
    • Like x 1
  20. Nemisor Committed Player

    i guess you're right.

    ive just been hurt to many times before:(

    quick, someone hold me....:p
    • Like x 2
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