Stats Revamp 1.3!

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Avair, Jan 27, 2017.

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  1. DistantWalker Well-Known Player

    Wow, amazing i never thought id see the day. There should be something held, a special event. This one day where all servers are merged and something in open world is hosted by all the Dev's. Because there actually listening to the players that know a thing or two about the game. I'm not saying new players opinions are bad because there not. There actually quite important, but. Feedback given from new players are normally complaints mainly because there lack of experience or frustration from losing. And for so long, so long. The game has been ran by these complaints which damaged the game a'lot. I really think there should be a strategy section to the forum for more experienced players can help the newer players, so when they have a problem asking a more experience player will be the first option. IMO this is huge and a'lot of other games can take a look at what the dev's are doing for an example. You would think the dev's would say "the hell with it" with all the complaints coming from each and every where. but the fact that they are trying there hardest is remarkable and deserves credit. Standing back and looking at the entire picture and pointing out illogical and obvious mistakes is what there doing. Proud paying member :).
  2. Carbon Based Unit Well-Known Player

    It is there. The one called "Oracle’s Database (Guides)" for doing just that. =)
  3. Mystere Well-Known Player

    This doesnt make sense to me as a solar flare clip into a power is equal. Why would you give up all dmg modification for the weapon portion for only the power clip at the end. My testing experience shows a net dps loss when speccing only Might while using a weapon combo clipped into a power. I got much better results from prec/might/power so that I got more dmg from the weapon combo, more dmg from power, and had the extra power/power regen to keep using a power at the end of every weapon combo.
  4. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    That would be a pure balance build then. You are looking at the min maxing there.

    A person that is trying to run strictly weapons would have to make the decision on where he wants his damage to come from. Speccing all precision with nothing else would be fine, as you regen your power fast.

    That's why we got that little info graph in the OP.

    Where you change colors based on your build. HB solar flame clip would be somewhere in the middle.

    I do agree that the weapons need a damage pass though. They got extremely adjusted over the years from PvP to Weapon Mastery that kind of made quite a bit of them hit like a wet noodle.
  5. Derio Steadfast Player

    Your PftT is viable but the weapons needs tweakage. Weapon only is the player using their weapon about 90% of the time with the 10% being buff moves. So it would be better to buff weapon damage after performing a set number of weapon combos in a row.
  6. Cold Fusion Well-Known Player

    I'm really hoping your not reminding people of this fact because you are not going to change the values...

    If I ask any Dev how many SP I should have... They will say it should be around your CR so let's go with that.


    If I'm a DPS I need..


    If I want a WM combo that's another 20sp to unlock.

    50sp for power is a min. for just a "standard" playstyle with the way power is on 1.3 revamp. IMO

    We are at 130Sp with no movement mode innate unlocked.

    That leaves 60Sp ... For might or precision... Which on the current scale gets you nothing you will even notice. I put 93Sp on Precision and I couldn't really notice.

    Your casual example is 15 fold on 175sp... So that works great if you have all Sp in the game but not for recommend amounts.

    It was said y'all lowered the Sp values to decrease the gap between people that have moderate Sp and a lot of Sp .. but in practice moderate Sp gets close to nothing noticeable and a lot of Sp gets you something noticeable.

    SP is a huge part of the game and represents the amount of time and effort spent playing the game and needs to be meaningful at moderate and very meaningful at a lot.

    Seriously.... I am thankful for the changes away from AM's and realize it's a ton of work. We all want that work to pay off. SP actually mattering all Powers actually mattering and all Roles actually mattering would be amazing to pull off and a dream come true for most of us.
  7. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Two other serious questions I feel need to be answered are these:

    1. How many skill points are you designing the revamp around? How many do you expect the average player to have to ENJOY the game and have FUN?

    On the test server we have 170. Even with that number combat is slower than it was, more difficult and requires a lot more skill. What happens if a player only has 100? I'm going to start testing with that number and give feedback on what it's like. Why? Because a lot of players don't have close to 170. I've been playing for a year and have just reached that number (despite being in an awesome though smallish league). I'm guessing 100-120 is a lot closer to what new players have.

    I'm honestly worried about how you're going to balance someone with 80 sp vs someone with 306 in terms of damage potential and game experience. Remember, Mepps said the whole point of removing AMs (not defending them, don't like them) was to make sure an expert couldn't do 10x the damage of someone who doesn't know what they're doing. But let's be honest, how can someone without 100sp into power compete with someone who does? I don't have the answer, just asking the question.

    2. How much of an effect would choosing wrong skill points have on the game experience?

    Again, I absolutely love the freedom and possibilities of the revamp. So please understand that i'm not asking this question for me. I understand might, precision, vitalization, etc. and power. I think it's awesome that we can customize our build depending on what we choose. But what about someone who doesn't investigate everything on google like I do? What if they distribute their 120 (or even lets give them 170) skill points equally between the trees. 20 in crit chance, 20 in crit mag., 20 in precision, 20 in might, 20 in healing chance (they want to survive), 20 in healing magniture, and (Mr. 120 is out already), 20 in power, 20 in dominance (I don't know what it does but sounds awesome), 20 in power crit, 20 in power crit magnitude... you get the picture.

    What happens then? Is the game playable with 20 points in power? Will my damage be less than 10x what an expert is putting out?

    I think a main part of the difficulties here is trying to turn this into #skillpointsmatter instead of #statsmatter. I understand that you want to make skill points meaningful, but at what point do you realize that it's impossible to balance someone with 80sp and 300sp? There are only 2 outcomes possible.

    A. Skill points have a large impact on gameplay, provide lots of stats and are intimately connected with power regen = Mr. 80 sp doesn't stand a chance against Mr. 300 sp even if wearing the same gear.

    B. Skill points don't have that much impact on gameplay, providing about 15-20% of your total stats max. = Mr. 300 sp gets upset and wonders why he put so much effort into getting those sp. Mr. 80 sp notices a difference on the scoreboard, but can still be within 15-20% of the leaders (8-8.5 mil damage vs. 10 mil in a raid for example). Does that mean Mr. 80 sp can't run endgame content because he gets kicked from groups? Probably not.

    Ideas to solve this sp problem?

    I'd start by removing core gameplay elements from sp. Power regen for example has no place there. Or at least reduce the amount of possible power investment to around 20-40 sp max. Let players play comfortably with that amount for the hybrid role, perhaps increasing the power recieved from weapon attacks, blocking, combos, weapon mastery attacks, etc. The idea is that hybrid plays totally comfortably with those 20-40 sp in power.

    How can you make PftT viable then powerwise? One proposal is to focus more on the effect of power crits. Since I'm guessing you want PftT to only be available to people with more sp to spend (lets say 100 dedicated solely to power regen), here's an idea to give them what they need.

    20-40 sp in the base power category like everyone else (this would give about 50 percent of the power regen everyone needs regardless of playstyle).

    40 sp in power crit chance (allowing for for a crit chance of up to 40%).
    40 sp in crit magnitude (allowing for a power crit. mag. of up to 50%).

    At this point, a player should have about 75% of the power they need. Then here's the fun part.

    After fully unlocking power crit chance and power crit magnitude, a new category is unlocked. Power multipliers. Each point spent (or 5 points, etc.) multiply your power by 1.5x, x2, x3, etc. These multipliers are disabled in support roles (otherwise trolls wouldn't be needed). That way players who want to play from the tray do have to spend a lot of sp into power, but hybrid players aren't inconvenienced at the same time.
  8. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    But that wouldn´t increase the amount of damage output from Hybrid aswell?
    I think that the only numbers that need revision from the weapon combos are the longer ones (Smoke Bomb, Flurry Shot, Flip Slash, etc.) and the WM combos that take more than 4 inputs, since you were investing more time using your weapon. Moves like Explosive Shot and Solar Flare need to be good/decent , but not as good as the long combos IMHO.
  9. Derio Steadfast Player

    Well not necessarily. Hybrid builds arent doing multiple weapon combos in succession. They are mostly weapon combo into power back into weapon combo. Where as weapon is just combo after combo after combo until buffs and big moves are off cooldown.
  10. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Yeah, WM Crit window further buffing just weapon damage could work well.
    WM would not be the same without the red circling animation and the squeaking sound. :D:D
  11. MrChiCity0884 Active Player

    To reply to your sp ?
    I believe those are there for a reason to unlock your potential... Without them all will suck...I grind for my 270 and with AM and stat boost on pwrs like ice and mental non high sp players shldnt have bn doing the same damage or close to as me...the problem with SME old and new players they don't want to grind they just want updates so pwrs can be broken and with those broken pwrs they look like skilled players when they are not...

    I also liked u asked the q? Of what is the cap for skill points in this new system I say 150 minimum is not asking for to much since this game is not hard to grind for feats...players make feat chasing hard not the devs...
  12. lordexecution365 Dedicated Player

    Didn't that basically kill PvP.

    I mean having players close in combat, despite 1 having grinded the top tier gear while the other having no gear, and still being able to match damage for damage.

    In the case we are saying SP instead of gear though.

    I understand and get your point, they definitely don't want to alienate a potential customer with a disadvantage from lack of SP, but in not allowing the players to earn or work to better improve...

    Or to have a player who worked and improve there toon, just to be average is a let down of its own.

    More control to the players is what we actually have been requesting not less.

    If a player worked on there toon(s), they deserve the advantage.

    It is not restricting them from the content, how they choose to enter or there group make up for the content is on them.

    It is why so many have stop playing, feeling like they are catering to those that do not want to put in work on there toons.

    Though we are not discussing PvP, it is 1 of the problems inflicting PvP, the lack of separation from time spent grinding gear sets vs new comers or even those that don't like PvP due to gankers and others who Trolled newer players to PvP.

    In my opinion it is the main reason PvP is dead now.
  13. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    But that wouldn´t be a new AM then? Not saying that your idea is bad at all, but sounds kinda mandatory at first glance. How many weapon combos should i chain to get this weapon damage increase that you are suggesting?

    I don´t know, to me would be more simple to increase the percentage of weapon buffs (Wired, WoD, etc) and increase the base damage of long weapon combos and long WM combos. People who play Hybrid want to use short and clipable weapon combos between their power casts, so they wouldn´t benefit so much for the changes that i´m suggesting.
  14. Derio Steadfast Player

    I dont think increasing the weapon buff percentage would be wise. It would only empower the hybrid build more. Some hybrid builds can use long weapon combos, especially those that use large power consuming moves and dots to where they are waiting for cooldowns.

    Then there is the current weapon buff duration. It practically is built for hybrid builds due to its very short up time and long cooldown. There needs to be something in place that boost weapon damage the more combos you use without using a power inbetween those combos.
  15. Karasawa Loyal Player

    The player feedback regarding weapon buffs has pretty much universally been to change them to 12s duration. So the fact that the Devs seem extremely reluctant to do this leads me to believe that they might not want clip-heavy Hybrid specs to be using weapon buffs. Between the heavy power cost and short duration, maybe they're just really meant for weapon specialists only.
  16. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    That may be the case in the long run, but my suggestion is that the calculations of the percentage increase should to be done with the presumption that the player has speeced all his Mods and SP into Precision, so the damage that a player specced like that can match the damage that the Might power abilities can do. Hybrid players, usually spec into Might or at most mixed build Might/Prec, what would led me to believe that the benefit that they would get would not be that big.

    Maybe that´s the case, but 12 secs cooldown and 6 secs up feels really tight to me, a very short window to really get any benefit damage wise.
  17. Avair Lead Systems

    Weapons have gotten a single balance pass, but have not been brought up to where we want them to be. We have a couple of issues we need to fix with them. Making WM combos better in general, rewarding players with bonuses if they go deeper into combos, making your stat decisions more clear, etc.

    In regards to weapon buffs... we have something coming that I think people will like.

    As far as the stat stuff I mentioned earlier... There are definitely some problems with the current system and how people understand it (for instance it's confusing that as a Hybrid I would still want to dump my stats in a single stat instead of spread it around). We always figured that a hybrid would pick a stat, Precision or Might, based on which style they wanted to lean on more. I would pick Precision if I wanted to do most of my damage with weapons and use powers to augment my weapons, then I would pick Might if I wanted to use powers to do most of my damage and regenerate with weapons. Just the theory, we are working on making that a thing or adjusting the stat system in general.
    • Like x 6
  18. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    Would you like to see PftT and weapon only in a raid setting?
    That's probably the only way you'll see where we are coming from
  19. Avair Lead Systems

    Are you asking if I want to see a video of you using these?

    I wanted to drop by again to note that the last few pages of conversation has really been awesome and this is the sort of feedback that makes my day awesome. It surfaces issues and problems but is also super constructive and very thought invoking.

    On to more feedback for you!

    We are actually talking about how many points people need to spend and in what stats in order to become viable. Anything beyond those points is icing on the cake. We have not hit a threshold that we like and we have a few ideas floating around. You are right in that the average player will not likely hit the caps that I mentioned in my previous post. In fact, we are likely to increase the cap over time in order to keep up with player growth, so it could get worse. We will be making changes at some point in the near future to alleviate concerns in this area. Feedback about particulars in that area would be appreciated.

    There is definitely an inherent problem in the system that nearly everything makes hybrid better some how, few things make weapon or pftt better without making hybrid also better. That makes for some interesting design discussions. We are open to hearing any feedback in this area, but we are currently having conversations to fix this problem. It's a tough nut to crack, but I am confident we will figure it out.
    • Like x 4
  20. TybeeTahiri Devoted Player

    Avair, are there still plans to add "systems" to powers that don't have them, (Ex. combos) ? I remember reading that. All the PI stuff you've done with Gadgets seems really awesome, but Mental is like ... blah.

    Also, what are the plans for League Buffs and current White Mods ? Are they being removed, reworked, or like what ?
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