Stats Revamp 1.3: Gadgets

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Shin-O-B, Jan 27, 2017.

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  1. L T Devoted Player

    I've done more testing with mental than with gadgets, but I found things much the same. The crit buff seemed a bit overpowered when all your Supercharge hits were crits, but now it's useless. Maybe there's a happy middle ground? Restore half (ish) the crit bonus? Substitute in a crit damage bonus so if you get lucky you REALLY get lucky? Not sure what the answer is, but we've gone from stealth being totally awesome to stealth being mostly sucky.
  2. BumblingB I got better.

    After kind of giving up testing on the dps side, I started testing the controller side.

    Fear Gas > Vortex Cannon is actually good multi target stun. Fear Gas stops them in their tracks and you can push them together with Vortex Cannon. I kind of like Fear Gas for controller, but hate it for dps. So if the double damage could be fixed, it would be not bad for controllers.

    Paralyzing Dart's multitarget stun feels narrower from live. I'm assuming due to the damage adjustment on it. I don't mind the damage being low, but is there a way for the gas to stun a wider area? Also, I noticed that it can still miss. Which I don't think it's like that on live. Also being an object, it can hit something you are not targetting, but the debuf still works.

    Debufs in general are all leveraging powers. Not really a problem, just an observation.

    Sticky Bomb's delay is kind of meh. For both dps and controller, it doesn't have much in terms of wanting to use it other than a fast cooldown. It no longer stuns, just knocks back once. I feel this power was the biggest change to gadgets that kind of hurts worse than fear gas.

    I really hate encasements, but I guess I'll have to live with breaking it upon using it if I don't want to get kicked.

    Implosion Mine's pull inward is actually kind of nice. But the cast on it makes it not worth it as well as the fact it doesn't stun. Can mines really get looked at?
    • Like x 1
  3. Penryn The Gadgeteer

    I haven't seen a multi-target stun capability on Paralyzing Dart. It always ends up being single-target for me. Here is a brief demonstration:


    That mob group is packed very tightly and I only end up stunning NPC with each cast.

    Are you seeing something different?
  4. BumblingB I got better.

    I was able to get 2 targets that were literally right next to each other. So maybe it's supposed to be a single target stun. That is why I said narrow. My assumption was it hits multi around the target if they are very close. I guess I was wrong and it was something else.
  5. Penryn The Gadgeteer

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but I was kind of wondering how small the stun AoE was supposed to be. I tried it again here and was only able to get a single stun:
    • Like x 1
  6. BumblingB I got better.

    Hmmm. I do my testing on the bridge. And I've gotten people right next to each other to stun, but again, it could be related to something else I did that I didn't notice.

    I would very much like it to be a multitarget stun like live.
  7. Penryn The Gadgeteer

    It would be nice if it was a multitarget stun, but I don't see that happening on 100 base power cost.

    In terms of group AoE stuns, Fear Gas and Cryo-Foam work really well at 200 base power cost in Controller role. Even in Damage role, Fear Gas works well for stunning in solo/duo content if you jump cancel it and go into Paralyzing Dart. You'll at least setup the PI that way.




    Feedback
    With respect to Paralyzing Dart, I have mixed feelings about the way it is setup. In its conversion to an AoE power, its single target damage went down significantly. Using the same build, it was doing 5500 damage as single target versus ~4000 now. That makes it less efficient to use in any situation where you only have a single target - especially for boss fights.

    Paralyzing Dart is efficient for group situations if you are playing purely from the tray. Outside of that, its lack of single-target burst really shows.

    Too bad there isn't another low-cost Gadgets power that could be setup for solo-target damage.
  8. BumblingB I got better.

    Taser Pull? TBH, there is a lot of middle attack powers, not a lot of low cost powers as well.
  9. Penryn The Gadgeteer

    Feedback
    The following feedback is with respect to Damage-role.

    I've spent a lot of time the last few days trying a lot of different weapon/power loadout combinations. Aside from bug testing, I've been interested in finding something that feels comfortable and/or opens up interesting new possibilities for gameplay. After carefully reviewing a lot of gameplay videos and my notes, I don't think there are any "hidden depths" to Gadgets playstyles. Basically what you see is what you get.

    I don't want to keep repeating the same feedback, but I think one of the main issues is that Gadgets has been adjusted too much in the name of balancing. Here are some examples:
    • Cryo-Field - The previous version of the power wasn't used much, but at least it was a bit easier to use. It is very difficult to make fixed-area short-range of Cryo-Field work well. If you're using Dual Pistols, you're going to be leaping in/out of the field and probably luring the mobs away from it. If you're using Explosive Block/Violent Break, you're going to knock mobs out of the power. If you need to move out of the field for any reason, the mobs are going to follow you and stop taking damage. The Controller version works a bit better since it is a stun, but this power is too situational in Damage role. Also consider that it is the only heavy hitting option for the Frostbite power interaction.
    • DoTs - Cryo-Foam, Fear Gas, Stasis Field, and Intimidation gave Gadgets a very potent mix of long-lasting DoTs. Aside from Fear Gas, you really don't get that anymore. Intimidation doesn't exist anymore. Cryo-Foam is a burst attack with an awkward dovetail. Stasis-Field gives you a few seconds of DoT ticks. I'm not sure how long Fear Gas is supposed to last. The DoTs you do get - like Cryo-Field and Napalm Grenade - don't last very long.
    • Holographic Decoy - I know it is only a two second reduction, but the difference is noticeable to a long-time player. Even with the Accelerated mod, you're still going to be below 50% duration time. I'll agree the 12 second cooldown version was very overpowered, but it was really fun to use.
    • Suppressor Turret - The original intention was to make this an immortal pet so it would be more useful in raiding situations. The current changes have gone in the opposite direction. Suppressor Turret was never a good pet. Trying to use it in combat isn't worth with the 500 base power cost and 15 second cooldown. Changing the cooldown to 30 seconds isn't going to improve it any. You're better off using one the holiday pet trinkets. At least it does reliable damage, has higher uptime, gives you stats benefits, and doesn't use any power.
    • Stealth - I understand the reasoning the crit bonus was removed, but what you're left with is a pretty 'meh' ability. The best I can for Stealth now is that it works for initial solo attacks and as a secondary loadout bar. Going through the trouble to transform, get close to the enemy, and do a non-crit Surprise Attack isn't worth the time/risk setup. You might get some mileage out of using Improved Stealth to setup Implosion Mine in mid-combat, but that wasn't always reliable for me. Even with the Improved Stealth mod, there were times I was immediately knocked out of stealth.
    • Sticky Bomb - Turning this power into a heavy-hitting PI consumer hasn't been sitting well with me. Sticky Bomb has traditionally always been the power you would use to setup power interactions. Now it is a heavy-hitting power with a very small area of effect. It is unfortunate that Paralyzing Dart was not converted into being the heavy-hitting multi-target Burning PI consumer and making Sticky Bomb the low-cost power.

    With the cumulative 1.3 and 1.4 changes, Gadgets just feels very plain and a bit boring to play right now.

    In terms of damage output capabilities, Gadgets seems very average right now. I tried using several different loadouts/methologies in raids, but it always ended up being middle of the road in terms of damage. That ended up being very frustrating. I found my heavy hitting PI consumers to be very situational.

    About the closest I came to finding something comfortable was using Dual Pistols in conjunction with a loadout centered around Battle Display/Gauss Grenade/EMP Pulse. Dual Pistols gives you good options for repositioning yourself depending on the situation and the long combos were good for regenerating power. Clipping Gauss Grenade with Battle Display gives you a nice countdown timer for your power interactions. Trying to see what power interactions are currently in effect in a raid is very difficult at time. EMP was always awkward though due to its 3 second cooldown. Those three second powers don't really sync up with any of Dual Pistols combos. Photon Blast also worked well with this combination.
    • Like x 1
  10. Penryn The Gadgeteer

    Bug Report
    If there is another Gadgets user in the area and they are making active use of Vortex Cannon, I will sometimes see the following graphical bug:


    The Vortex Cannon effect lasts after the cast.

    The bug does not happen on every Vortex Cannon. It appears to be random. The old vortex disappears whenever the appropriate player recasts it.

    I've seen this bug in PvE and PvP content. It can be a bit annoying since you also hear the sound fx.
    • Like x 1
  11. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    Can we please get a Developer to Respond here? It feels like we're felt in the Dark as were Gadgets and other powersets are heading..

    Feedback:
    I hate to say this, but the changes made to Gadgets just feel so boring. You guys took everything that was unique about Gadgets and tore it apart.
    This update effectively made me from a gadgets user to a Gadgets hater. There's nothing unique, the combat and cooldowns are clunky, and it's not smooth. I used Gauss Grenade, Fear Gas, and Cyro-foam and it just felt so boring and sluggish.
    Half-way through the Faust Boss fight in seeing shades again, I just wanted to quit playing, that's not what I should feel like when playing a power-set!


    Powers:
    Fear gas: I get that "Jump cancelling" was considered by many to be an Exploit, but to have it be channeling and interruptable is terrible.
    The Jump Cancelling was the way it made it feel so Fast and so smooth between transitions. It almost made Jump cancelling Fear-gas almost like a Core-mechanic to Gadgets that it wouldn't feel right in any other given situation.

    Playing Gadgets on Test: I realized just how much the Jump cancelling effect mattered on Fear Gas. Gadget doesn't feel the same, the Transition from this power to another is slow and clunky. It should smooth and quick like it is on Live.

    Ask me any-day, and I'll take Fear-gas on Live versus Clunky-Gas on Test.


    Suggestion: Either Remove the Channeling effect entirely or just make it identical to Live. I'm also a bit angered too, We can be interrupted with this power and the damage output sucks.

    Sticky bomb:
    Arguably my second biggest beef with Gadgets right now. Sticky Bomb was a stable Aoe move, Multiple ticks of damage, Very good PI applicator.

    Why is Sticky Bomb Another Big Power-cost/Big-damage Abiltity? Including EMP Pulse and Photon-Blast; that's 3 Different Big power-cost/big damage abilities.

    Besides the fact we have 3 of them, I'm not a fan of the delayed damage output or just how this move works at all.

    Cyro-foam.
    3rd Biggest Beef up there with Sticky bomb.

    Cooldown is 3 seconds......
    Let me rephrase that.. 3 seconds?! That is overkill.

    You already have people hating on the 2.5 Second Cooldown from Rage's out-rage on Live and now you make something even longer then that.

    If you aren't using Fear Gas in a Rotation, Don't even bother with this power. Trying to use Cyro-Foam in a Fluid Rotation is impossible, Mostly because you're waiting for that overkill of a Cooldown before you can use it again.

    On Top of that: It doesn't feel right being a straight up burst power. Like I said with Fear-gas, Give-me Cyro-foam on Live over this any day and I'll take it.

    Implosion mine: Straight up useless, nobody's gonna want you to use it in PVE.


    P.Dart.
    I feel sorry for Controllers. This was a Stable Aoe Stun & Debuff Power, also a go-to if you wanted to do DPS and Back-off a Little on live.
    Now It's a Shell of it's former self. As a Matter of fact, it's Sleep Dart 2.0 with a different name.

    Stealth: No real incentive to use this anymore, no crit bonuses, no useful powers.


    Conclusion, comparison, and verdict:

    Gadgets on Live: A bit cookie cutter, very fluid, very fast paced, and very different routes to use EMP/P.Dart.
    Gadgets on test: Less cookie cutter, not fluid, very clunky, and most powers are more or less useless.

    I had high hopes that this update would give me more incentive and more options to play Gadgets then I did on Live, but now... not anymore.


    Another big problem with gadgets; we have far too many burst powers that no matter which loadout you use. You're always left with something to be desired compared to other powersets on test. Other powers should Do Different things, not the same. But with Gadgets on test, about 95% of powers are straight up burst powers.


    And Personally Speaking; You know somethings wrong when every tester on Here isn't liking the changes that were made to Gadgets.


    I'm still hoping that more changes will be made to make the powerset much better down the road, otherwise Gadgets is off my list for favorite powersets in the game.




  12. Shin-O-B Developer

    Consider it considered!

    The damage output is very similar. Cryokinesis sets up and benefits from its P.I. because it is the only power of its element in the Mental powerset.
    • Like x 1
  13. Shin-O-B Developer

    We read and listen to all of you and care about all of your feedback, majority and minority. We do the best we can, despite the fact that all Players do not always agree with each other.

    We are considering solutions to the encasement issue.
  14. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    Lol, ok. Read this gadgets have how many PI and how many does sorcery have?
  15. Shin-O-B Developer

    Also, Test is a different beast from Live. No Player should be getting one-shot in appropriate level content anymore. It really is okay to get in and out of the action! :)

    Yes, stay tuned!

    Reducing the channeling duration shouldn't decrease the damage output since the cooldown is also adjusted. Fear Gas, and the other abilities of the "P.I. web", are balanced around 3 second cooldowns. So if Fear Gas's channel is reduced to 1 second from 1.5 second, then the cooldown will be increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 second.
    • Like x 1
  16. BumblingB I got better.

    This is great news. Would help give a better feeling of speed since it no longer should be JC'd.
    Have you looked into the double dot channel bug that it does. Where sometimes it would do two sets of dots?

    That makes sense, but it also means Cryo is slightly better because of it's lone PI. As it can always benefit from spamming it.
  17. Shin-O-B Developer

    You're very welcome! Thank you for your efforts and gratitude :)

    There is no way to root Stasis Field, as it is a physics object. Hal Jordan's encasement is simply a particle effect, I believe. That said, there are a number of solutions to the encasement issue, like:
    • Make encasements particle effects instead of physics objects
    • Change the shape of encasements to cubes instead of spheres, so they do not roll
    • Fix the encasement code so damage can pass through or destroy encasements
    • Remove encasements altogether
    Each of these things come with their pros and cons. I feel the code fix is the best solution, but it's also the most difficult!
    • Like x 5
  18. BumblingB I got better.

    Always fixing the code is the worst of programming, but in the long run often fixes other elements that benefit the whole more than intended. Which is good.

    So, with that said, are you looking to do that? I actually would look differently on encasements, as right now, I always see it as I'm saving the enemy, not hurting them.

    Also, can it be "pass through"? As if that is added to encasements, they would be better for a troll arsenal.
  19. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    Since you're already here answering questions, are there any plans to adjust Stealth and the Mines? Those are useless for most gameplay outside of trolling noobs in PvP Phase or setting up some mines while someone went afk before a boss fight. That's a significant part of Gadgets' ability pool (5 powers) that have been barely viable forever with the exception of Stealth which of course had its crit bonus removed now.
    I know I've been annoying everyone with that for a couple weeks now but I just want Stealth to be a viable mechanic to build around :D

    I'm also voting for making encasements cube shaped plus the code fix even if it hurts ;)
  20. Shin-O-B Developer

    Those abilities (other than Self Destruct Signal) will burst any encasement in the next build!
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