Stats Revamp 1.3 - Gadgets Feedback!

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Avair, Feb 10, 2017.

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  1. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    I'll be honest, since it is single target, I didn't want to use it at 100, switching to 300 makes me even less. Especially since if I'm going to a high cost long cooldown power, I'd rather go with something like Photon. I know PIs, but really, taser needs something other than single target PI applicator.

    I really feel that a damage increase on both mines would bring them up in group content. In solo and duos, you get aggro quickly with them, but I really enjoyed utilizing the pull in, then set of fire options with the casting changes. If they retired them, oh well and I would wonder if there would be a replacement option for them. Short of redeveloping the whole powerset, I kind of feel that Gadgets either has to make what we have work or be limited on what we can use.

    I wonder if it is possible to have two versions of ones to choose from and survey which do we prefer. I'd like to see what cfoam with dots would be like while sticky having a burning setup, but I feel that if that is changed it would cause issues and delay further advancement.

    Sticky right now is really not worth it outside of cast time and cooldown. I think the biggest issue with it is cost and reward. It cost too much that you would be better off utilizing a longer cooldown power since you have to regen that power back. It might be better suited for a hybrid, but even then, I see napalm and gauss being used more.
  2. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    To be honest I don't think there is really a niche anymore for single target PI applicators, and there hasn't been for at least since GU36. I'd like to have Taser Pull as a cheap power because we're lacking in that regard, but I'd rather have it exploit a PI than set one up. Although, thinking about it, Gauss Grenade hasn't been fixed so I'd avoid using that whenever I can and rather use Taser Pull to setup electrify for single target builds.
    If it's going to stay expensive then it should definitely exploit a PI and do more damage than EMP to account for it being single target.

    Didn't even notice that they were stacking with themselves. I wonder if that's intentional. Still, they're different enough imo. Of course Napalm is better for hybrid builds because it's more expensive. For a PFT build or a hybrid build with no Power investment, Thermite Mine could work though. BB already asked if the cast bars could be removed from the Mines and I support that. It would definitely make them easier to work into rotations.
    Either way I think Thermite Mine can be viable with maybe some minor changes. Not a key power at all for most playstyles, but viable enough that there could be a competitive build that uses them. Implosion Mine of course is another thing and I still think it could just be turned into an instant PBAOE.

    Right now Sticky is just bad because of its low cooldown and I wonder if there's really a niche for spamming a single expensive power. I'm all for build variety but I don't think having a spammable expensive power is necessary, especially not if it means that it does barely more damage than all the medium cost powers. I'll take 1-2.5 seconds cooldown increase to bring it to a 1.5-3s rotation like other heavy hitters which would allow for it to deal more damage. How much more is another question, but any increase in damage is good at this point and an increase in cooldown time wouldn't immediately hurt.

    It's exactly not suited for a hybrid because of its short cooldown that is the reason for its crap damage. For hybrid you'd want literally any power that has a longer than 0.5s cooldown and does more damage in return for the same Power cost.
    • Like x 2
  3. Karasawa Loyal Player

  4. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Until they adjust weapons, right now, short cooldowns actually benefit quick combos. It's the reason why spin chop and solar flame are so popular. I do remember spin chop/gauss back in the day. Since the animation time on gauss was like 0.6? (Might have been 0.4.) Maybe I'm thinking wrong when it comes to hybrid method of play.

    I feel that single target attacks in general get glossed over by players that want a more general damage loadout. Which would require multitarget options. After this goes live, I will be making several armories to switch to based on content and maybe even bosses. In everything though, taser pull being put a higher cost kind of hurts in controller side. It was a really good pull, but it's funny how it was hardly used even when it was a PoT giving power. I'm not sure, maybe adjusting it to simply "taser" and adjust accordingly.
  5. Penryn Loyal Player

    I think we can all agree that Taser Pull needs to have a better-defined role than "expensive single-target pull that also happens to be a PI applicator." Raising it to 300 base power and leaving the cooldown at 3 seconds is not doing anything to improve its utility. Whether that role be:
    * 100 base cost pulling power
    * 100 base cost pulling power that is a PI consumer
    * 300 base cost pulling power that is a PI consumer

    is up for argument. I think a single-target PI consumer could be useful at either the 100 or 300 base power cost points. However, the 100 base power cost point maybe more useful.
    • Like x 2
  6. Penryn Loyal Player

    With the way the crowd control system is currently working, I'm worried about my ability to inflict crowd control effects when necessary in large-group content. While testing crowd control today, I noticed that a lot of the powers that a Gadgets controller is going to use on their loadout has a crowd control effect associated with it. If you try to do a normal rotation on a group of mobs while in-role, you are going to quickly give that mob group resistance and immunity. I found it necessary to restrain my power usage and mostly focus on weapon attacks for fear of giving dangerous NPCs immunity. If the tank is using consumables, the mob groups are going to quickly get breakout immunity and your attempts to crowd-control will be ineffective.

    I don't know what the answer is to these problems, but I feel less Controllery than before. Seeing enemies breakout 1 to 2 seconds after you set your first stun and seeing enemies breaking out of skull attacks is not giving me much confidence in the system.
    • Like x 2
  7. Lucas Slainte New Player

    Yes Yes Yes!!! Throwing Knives and Backflip Attack have always been two of my favorite powers that I have had in every one of my acrobat character's rotation since the first day I started playing this awesome DC game 5 years ago:) . Was very sad to see backflip turned into a SC power:( I too support those changes especially with making backflip a regular non SC power. It really helps out in situations when you need to get the heck outta the way lol;) And it gives us Acrobats cool way of landing too :cool:
  8. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    New changes hit the test server today:

    • Taser Pull: Damage reduced to match 100 cost.
    • Implosion Mine: Cost reduced to 200 from 300.
    • Thermite Mine: Radius increased to 7m from 5m.
    • Sticky Bomb: Radius increased to 7m from 5m.
    • Stasis Field: Fixed the damage over time tick gap (1s from 0.4s) in Damage Role.
    • Fear Gas: Added to the Empowered Channeling mod.
  9. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player

    Wait what?!

    Empowered Channeling is making a Comeback with interruptable moves again?

    That's intriguing..
  10. Penryn Loyal Player

    Question / Bug Report(?)
    From the latest patch notes:
    "To better support battle roles, powers that both deal damage AND provide healing/shielding effects have been buffed"

    I'm not seeing any improvement in Neural Neutralizer. I'm still measuring the base damage values at 30 to 33 (divided by 100) and the shield strength at ~40.75%. Those are the same values I was measuring prior to the latest hotfix.

    Neural Neutralizer seems to fit the criteria of that patch note.
    • Like x 1
  11. Penryn Loyal Player

    Bug Report
    "Fear Gas: Added to the Empowered Channeling mod."

    This is not working:

    Fear Gas was added to the mod's description list, but I'm still seeing the "vulnerable to interrupt" warning. It works fine with Photon Blast.
  12. Penryn Loyal Player

    For anyone interested in today's changes:
    • Fear Gas is still displaying the vulnerability warning with Empowered Channeling equipped. I don't think the base damage ranges have been tweaked yet.
    • Implosion Mine was reduced to 200 base power, but kept its 300 base power base damage range. The AoE range and auto-detonate ranges appear to be the same.
    • Neural Neutralizer has no apparent changes.
    • Stasis Field in Damage Role does 6 ticks of damage now. I haven't calculated the base damage range, but it isn't much more than the Controller version.
    • Sticky Bomb is doing the same base damage, but should have better range.
    • Taser Pull went back to 100 base power with a damage range of 49 to 55.
    • Thermite Mine's AoE range was increased, but the auto-detonate range remains the same.

    Specific Suggestions/Feedback
    • Implosion Mine - Can the auto-detonate range be increased a little bit? I'm measuring it at around 5 meters. Would Implosion Mine be considered overpowered if it was also a Frostbite PI consumer? That would help to fill the burst PI consumer spot in the Frostbite tree.
    • Taser Pull - Taser Pull is still a pretty "meh" power for Damage role. That 3 second cooldown makes it hard to use boss fights where it would be most useful as a single-target power. I'm also not a fan of the cooldown for Controller role. For the situations where I need to do careful positioning, that 3 second cooldown is a literal killer at times. I'd be willing to have a reduction on the stun time if I could use the power more often.
    • Like x 1
  13. Penryn Loyal Player

    What are the damage division rules for Sticky Bomb supposed to be? I'm measuring the base damage values at 62 to 69 (divided by 100). At 8536 Might, that gives me a projected damage range of 4242 to 4692 damage.

    On a single-target test, I'm seeing that damage range:

    The weirdness starts when I get to three targets:

    I'm not seeing any damage division here like what I'd see with other powers. It seems like all of the NPCs are taking the full damage range.

    On eight targets, I see the following:

    The targeted NPC takes the full expected damage range. All of the surrounding NPCs appear to be dividing a different damage pool.

    How is Sticky Bomb supposed to work?
    • Like x 1
  14. Penryn Loyal Player

    Is Stasis Field supposed to divide damage in Controller role? I'm seeing the same damage values on eight targets as I would three targets. Here is a demonstration.

    Three Targets:

    Eight Targets:

    For both cases, the main target has 455 damage ticks. The surrounding NPCs all take 409 damage ticks.
    • Like x 1
  15. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Taser pull is still a very very not worth it damage power. With a 3 second cooldown, it isn't even worth spamming it. This really needs to be addressed.

    I actually like the changes to the Mines. I actually think an electrified build with Implosion and EMP is actually good group build. Couldn't remove the cast bars though? :/ Since Implosion was lowered to 200 I think the utility of it is great. I do agree with Pen about range though.

    Can Photon leverage electric as well? As if I'm going a single target loadout, there isn't a whole lot of options to setup the PI for it.

    So I was doing a test same loadout different mods. With split orange might and power in all my reds and yellows and about 40k power vs all power in all 10 sockets with about 45k power pool. I can safely say I could get a couple more hits in, but the damage loss from losing the might from the mods showed big time. From 15.5k-ish to 12.5k-ish. So having the need to get skill points to make up for that is very apparent.

    Edit: also, Pdart doesn't increment the combo counter still.
  16. TheDark Devoted Player

    Yea SB isn't splitting after 2 targets. But the way Sticky Bomb works on Live is the same as it is on Test. Your primary (locked on) target receives the normal damage range of 1 SB. Then the surrounding NPCs are suppose take the damage range of another SB but that range is divided among how ever many NPCs there are that got hit. In total you're suppose to net 2 targets worth of damage on X NPCs provided the power is splitting after 2 targets. It makes it a good power for singling out NPCs that the group is trying to focus fire on through a mob. It's a minor advantage SB has that I like.

    On Test, you're dealing a total damage range of 3 targets while your primary target still receives that damage range of 1 SB. The surrounding NPCs will take a total damage range of 2 SB instead of one. So until the next build for test, people should avoid testing damage rotations with SB if they want to give reliable feedback.
    • Like x 1
  17. Penryn Loyal Player

    I did a bit more testing after I made that post and saw what was happening. The targeted enemy always takes 100% damage while any surrounding mobs divide the 200% damage pool. In the case of two-enemy mob groups, they each take 100%.

    After doing some more testing with other powersets today, I think it might be ok to leave Sticky Bomb as-is. I saw several other powers where NPCs were taking full damage on multiple enemies like what you see with Sticky Bomb. If Sticky Bomb ends up getting "fixed," it will just an even more mediocre power compared to what you could be using in other powersets.

    After doing my play-testing sessions other powersets and coming back to Gadgets, it always feels like Gadgets is a step-behind when it comes to Damage role. Other powersets have powers that seem to be better fit for the types of situations you are likely to encounter. Just as an example, consider Vengeance for Sorcery. Vengeance is a single-target PI consumer at 100 base power cost with a 0.5 second cooldown. Both it and Taser Pull seem to have the same base damage value range. While I can spam Vengeance, Taser Pull has that awkward 3 second cooldown. I know the 3 second cooldown on Taser Pull is a concession to its pull/stun abilities. However, that pull/stun ability isn't worth anything for Damage-role in large-group content.

    I could point out other similar examples.
    • Like x 1
  18. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Does Taser Pull still stun upon pull? I need to get around to testing the controller side. Seems like the control effects are kind of a mess right now.

    I really feel they need to add another power in its stead. Having a 3 second low cost power just kills the utility of it for damage role.
  19. Rubsarb New Player

    With the change to Gadgets powerset, I don't feel the synergy between moves with Gadgets anymore. It feels like cast power, weapon, cast power, weapon, cast power, weapon. No powers seem to synergize smoothly with each other. Overall, the combat pace feels slow and leaves little to imagination. It's ironic that more abilities are available but it feels like our choices have been limited. I still don't understand the need of fear gas being a channeled ability. Photon blast is already channeled. Having both channeled really slows the powerset down dramatically.
  20. Penryn Loyal Player

    It still has its stun in Controller role.

    This seems to be another example of where conflicting role balancing causes a power to not be satisfactory for anyone. Gadgets Controllers need a good pulling power, but you lose your ability to quickly move multiple NPCs because of damage/power cost concessions. Gadgets DPS players miss out on a good single-target power because the control effects cause the power to have a large cooldown. With the way StatsRevamp works, Taser Pull would have to lose its stun ability to get it down a 0.5 second power. Unfortunately, that would render it useless for Controller role if you can't stun the NPC while pulling it.

    I think the best solution would be to create a new power called "Taser" that lacks the control/pull effects of Taser Pull.

    There are still pacing/cooldown issues that make loadouts feel more mechanical than fluid. It has been tough finding anything that feels comfortable. I find it hard to pin down exactly what needs to be adjusted.

    For reference sake, have you tested any other powersets? Do any of them feel more fluid to you?
    • Like x 1
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