Stats Revamp 1.3 - Gadgets Feedback!

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Avair, Feb 10, 2017.

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  1. Shin-O-B Developer

    Yup! :eek:


    Leaning toward keeping it as a burst, as implemented. In my personal opinion, it feels best in this form and allows it to stand apart from the other abilities in its class (Fear Gas, Napalm Grenade, Gauss Grenade).

    I proposed this idea to collect opinions to see where players stand on the issue, since the call to return it to damage over time has been mentioned repeatedly.
    • Like x 1
  2. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player


    Why is Gadgets the only powerset on test that has to risk getting interrupted to use damage over time?


    Mental only risks get interrupted when using Mass Terror..

    Ice doesn't risk anything.

    Electricity especially doesn't risk getting interrupted.


    Sorcery doesn't risk getting interrupted when using dots.

    So on and so forth with the current powers on test.


    Sorry, but that's not balanced in my eyes.

    in my personal opinion, Damage Overtime doesn't work with interruptions. Why? Because it's damage overtime, it's meant to run in the background while you do some form of burst damage. If you get interrupted with Fear Gas as is on test, you lose the damage overtime entirely.


    If you do make Cyro-foam stay as a Burst damage ability, at least make it's cooldown more reasonable.


    If you try the following: Gauss, Fear, and Foam in solo content with a PFTT style of play; it won't feel right because you're spending time waiting for one of the two powers to come off CD before you get back into a rotation.

    Look at Sticky bomb; It's a 0.5 Second cooldown, can be spammed/used more often, and it delivers more DPS then Cyro-foam.


    Cyro-foam on the other hand; does less damage, has a longer cooldown, and the duration of the ability doesn't last that long.
  3. TheDark Devoted Player


    Ok great! Your powers of reasoning do you justice. It will be a mistake making this into a DoT under the new changes.

    As for Bunker Buster and us comparing its damage to the other supers mentioned by that player, how exactly would you prefer we compare damage? I have an idea but it's more like just timing the amount of damage BB does over X seconds, and timing Mental & Sorcery pet Supercharges attack over X seconds. Then I just gather total damage on single target and compare their inflicted damage over the duration they were out.

    They're different kinds of supercharges compared to BB's DoT. They're pet supers. Asphyxiation Gas is another DoT supercharge. Battle Drone is a Pet super but out for a short time.
  4. hotsizz1e03 Committed Player


    Should allow players to choose between the two.. But still can PRIMARILY be a burst.. But giving player access to GREAT DOTS, not just mediocre DOTS...
  5. Penryn Loyal Player

    Just be careful about what you ask for here. If the cooldown for Cryo-Foam is reduced further, something else will have to be reduced. In this case, that will probably be the control effect or the damage output.

    Speaking from a Controller perspective, Cryo-Foam is one of the best crowd-controlling powers in Gadgets. It roots and stuns up to 8 targets for what I believe is 6 seconds.

    However, you're speaking from the Damage role perspective and Cryo-Foam's cooldown does lead to awkward pauses in combat. This all leads into one of the more subtle balancing issues with StatsRevamp. Damage output is tied to cooldown, cast time, power cost, and crowd control effects. In the case of Cryo-Foam though, the control effect in damage role is a 2-target root. Compare that to the Controller version described above. I'd be fine with the Damage-role version of Cryo-Foam having no control effect if it meant boosted damage and a smaller cooldown. However, it appears it is being balanced against the Controller-role crowd control effect.

    With respect to Cryo-Foam:
    -I don't want to see it be made vulnerable to interrupts.
    -I don't want the awesome Controller crowd control effect removed.
    -I don't want the damage lowered even more. Gadgets is still in a rough place DPS wise.

    So that doesn't really leave many good choices for reducing the cooldown further.
    • Like x 2
  6. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player

    I just don't get why Gadgets can't be more like it's live/old counterparts
    Compared to every other powerset, they feel like their old counterparts.

    Mental feels like Pre-am mental.
    Ice feels like Pre-am ice or even ice on live for that matter.
    Electricity is very solid and very close to pre-gu 36.
    Sorcery is supposed to get Shard of Life and old Transmutation back.
    Yet if we want anything from Gadgets we have to lose something in order to get it. And yeah I get that test server is completely different to live, but my point still stands true.

    It's upsetting :/
  7. TheDark Devoted Player

    I get you need some CC in solo or duo content so players can perform, but I really preferred they didn't balance around CC effects. In raids, or content with NPCs with high will power, dps can't control them. The CC effects and damage in controller role role should've been separated from damage role CC and dps. I'm talking about as a whole here and not just for Gadgets. I also get that would decrease damage for Controllers but still balancing all of our powersets around CC in content where NPCs have weak breakout profiles (or the CC just doesn't matter which is just about 90% of all content) is just too much. That would've made for double the work though.

    Also, is it possible to increase the base shield multipliers by another 20% for Neural Neutralizer and Distract?
    • Like x 3
  8. hotsizz1e03 Committed Player



    I feel your frustration.. Post a solution.. Dont let your input go unheard..
  9. Jacob Dragonhunter Devoted Player

    I would, but as Penryn said it: We would lose something unique about the powerset.

    Reduce Cyro-foams cooldown? Damage gets reduced.

    Add dots to Cyro-foam? Becomes interruptable.


    I'd love it if we could get more information/Insight as to why these changes are being made.
    • Like x 1
  10. Karasawa Loyal Player

    Agree and disagree. One could argue that raids and alerts are the meat of this game and it's true that CC is useless for a DPS in that content. However, that leaves PvP, Duos, Solos, dailies, and other open world content where CC is super useful to a DPS.

    I think the real travesty here is that there has to be a difference at all between raids/alerts and all other content. If something CCs, shouldn't it always CC regardless of the content? But it seems this is impossible with the amount of CC in the game currently.

    There are so many abilities and weapon combos that have some form of CC tacked on (especially on Live) that it actually devalues and dilutes them to the point where the Devs were probably forced to create this distinction between raids/alerts and other content. Or in other words, if there were fewer CCs then more people (regardless of role) could use them without breaking content.
    • Like x 1
  11. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    Wow, I thought it felt shorter than 7m. That's fine, since it is intended to be a shield with extra stuff added to it. I do like it a lot. It's great for solo and duo play.
    I don't know, it could be because I specced mostly power, but the oomf of it is very low to me.

    I think leaving cfoam a burst is fine, since you adjusted cfield. I do miss the dot aspect of it, but I don't want to be limited. I do think the cooldown still limits it, but for now, lets do some more testing on it and see what feels right. Too bad we couldn't have both options to look at during the same build.
  12. Penryn Loyal Player

    When you talk about "old Gadgets", which version are you talking about? The very first version with terrible powers like Bomb/Clownbox? The first overhaul that introduced powers like Vortex Cannon, Napalm Grenade, and Energy Shield? The version that existed with dovetails after the introduction of Weapon Mastery?

    With Gadgets, you're inheriting several years of prior revamp efforts and design decisions.

    To provide an example, consider Suppressor Turret. The very first version of Gadgets had three (terrible) immobile turret powers: Sentry Turret, Warden Turret, and Suppressor Turret. Each one focused on a specific power interaction. During the first major revamp of Gadgets, those were all consolidated into one Turret power that would do a power interaction at random and generally did terrible damage output. The comment from the previous lead system designer is that Suppressor Turret was intended as a PI applicator. Fast Forward to StatsRevamp and Suppressor Turret has been transformed into a high-cost, limited duration pet with the same terrible PI applicator abilities. There is no clear vision at this point for what it is supposed to be.


    The Problem with StatsRevamp Gadgets
    The StatsRevamp team is doing its best to create a cohesive powerset around the powers that currently exist. Unfortunately, that is a bit of a problem for Gadgets. Pre-Weapon Mastery Gadgets was defined by a variety of odd-fitting powers that were tied together by a large number of power interactions. It was workable, but felt a bit disjointed at times. There was no "unifying theme" to the powerset. The Advanced Mechanic revisions did a good job of tying everything together by basing the mechanic around inflicting unique power interactions. Under the Advanced Mechanic, having a wide variety of power interactions gave Gadgets players a lot of freedom in defining their loadouts. However, that variety in power interactions is causing some problems under StatsRevamp rules.

    Under StatsRevamp, existing powers are being made to fit into predefined templates based on damage, power cost, cooldowns, crowd control effects, vulnerability, cast times, and the notion of PI applicators/consumers. That last part is probably one of the major issues Shin-O-B is running into. He's trying to work with the power interactions as they currently exist and not change things "too much." I think that is why the first version of StatsRevamp Gadgets had 6 major power interactions. All of that lead to an extremely disjointed powerset with very limited loadout options. Compare that to Ice where everything revolves around Frostbite. There are a large number of PI applicators and consumers for Frostbite under StatsRevamp Ice. A rich number of power interactions works against Gadgets.

    Gadgets is currently down to four major power interactions, but some of the power interaction sections are pretty bare. The Frostbite section consists of Cryo-Foam, Cryo-Field, and Photon Blast. The Burning section consists of Thermite Mine, Napalm Grenade, and Sticky Bomb. If you want to stick to a single power interaction within Gadgets right now, Dazing is your best choice. However, that may not provide the best damage output.

    The concept of having four central bridging powers is a good idea, but it places a lot of restrictions on how the rest of Gadgets is setup. For each medium cost bridging power, there has to be a high-cost PI consumer. When you start trying to place the rest of the powers into the necessary templates based on a four power-interaction set, you quickly run out of powers. So we end up with the current situation where there are too many situational high-power cost powers, a few medium PI applicators, and not enough low-cost powers. When you're trying to construct loadouts, you usually end up with an awkward blend of powers.

    For a rich variety of loadout choices, Gadgets would probably be best served if there were only one/two centeral power interaction(s). You would then be able to have a wider variety of Stats-Revamp template powers as what you see in the other powersets. However, that would result in Gadgets not really being Gadgets anymore.

    All of this leads to Gadgets being in a tight spot. A couple of brand new offensive powers would help out immensely in helping to fill out the predefined template powers and in other areas. Based on time/resource constraints, I don't see that happening though. This shouldn't be as much of a problem for any of the other powersets since they only have one or two power interactions as their core concepts.

    Give some thought about how the existing powers can be adjusted to fit into what StatsRevamp is trying to accomplish and about what might be fun to play.

    For my part, I think the purpose behind Mine powers and Suppressor Turret need to be completely rethought. Those powers just don't fit in anywhere. The Mines are too situational and have never really worked well in combat. Suppressor Turret is just an ill-defined pet power with no practical use.
    • Like x 6
  13. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    I agree with your post completely Pen, I've been around since the first Gadgets revamp. There were aspects that were good and some that were not so great. Iterations causes sort of all around broken and discarded parts into the mix. AM itself kind of held some of it together, but it limited your damage potential to a specific route.
    It's sort of like they were given a leaking ship and told them to fix it, when the previous ship maintainers were just patching the holes with tape and not actually plugging the holes.

    The current iteration that Shin-O-B has done is actually a really good design and the direction is going quite a bit better. I was really upset when I saw the first 3 iterations and how broken the powerset was. Half was the square peg in a round hole that Avair mention, the other half was aspects that were broken to start with.

    For me, I feel the mines have a lot of potential and just need a damage adjustment and remove the cast bar. I do wish either one would actually stun for a good controller aspect.

    As for suppressor turret, I don't even want to play with it. It is just terrible. It would need a whole new replacement power. Something that just designed for aggressive damage since it is a short living pet.
  14. Lithiumz Well-Known Player

    VULNERABLE TO INTERRUPT DOTS ARE POINTLESS AND ABSOLUTELY DUMB.

    WHY DOES A DOT HAVE TO BE VULNERABLE TO INTERRUPT?

    IT DOES NOT DO ANYTHING FOR BALANCE. NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
  15. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    I don't get the whole trouble with Foam being a burst. For some strange reason people keep asking for it to be made a dot again yet I don't see people asking for CField to be nerfed or Napalm to be made a burst again.

    We already have enough dot options since the burning applicators were turned into proper dots. I for one would like to keep some burst options which means either returning Napalm to burst and making its dot irrelevant again, or just keeping Foam as burst and getting used to the idea of Napalm being the go-to dot option instead.

    I don't have a problem with the cooldown either for that matter, there are lots of powers that you can fit in between Foam or EMP casts, even for PFT. They could be brought down to a 2.5s rotation to allow for spamming more short weapon combos with only Foam or only EMP but I don't see why that would be needed when there more options available and this would only bring the damage down.

    Just look at Sticky's underwhelming damage thanks to its 0.5s cooldown.

    For reference, I tried a PFT rotation of Gauss-Foam-Gauss-EMP yesterday and it was quite decent.
    • Like x 1
  16. Beta Cell New Player

    Hypothetically, how would you rethink these powers?
  17. Penryn Loyal Player

    I think Shin-O-B is doing the best he can with what currently exists. Having "four power bridging power interaction" mechanic as the core as the powerset isn't a bad idea, but it imposes a lot of restrictions. You can see that in the difficult conversion process over the last several weeks.

    The Gadgets Q&A department could use a bit of a buff though.

    Suggestions
    Here are a few specific trouble spots for Gadgets and some suggestions:

    Bunker Buster
    This is a bit of a lackluster supercharge. It takes a long time for the full damage to be dealt and it is easy for enemies to roam outside the area-of-effect. I certainly wouldn't build a loadout focus on Bunker Buster as it currently exists. Trying to compare it to Mass Hysteria is difficult due to the difference in mechanics. I wouldn't mind seeing Bunker Buster do its damage at a faster rate with a slight damage buff. If the damage buff is a no-go, how about a minor crit buff for 20 seconds?

    Lack of a Low-Cost Single Target Power
    This spot was previously occupied by Paralyzing Dart. Cuff'em theoretically occupies this spot now, but you can only use that power repeatedly on sparring targets. Real NPCs will breakout of Cuff'em and knock you out of Stealth. Taser Pull could work here, but it has been moved to the high-cost category. This is an area where having another Gadgets power would be useful.

    Medium-Cost Power Rotations
    Depending on your spec, it is possible to perform a rotation consisting of medium-cost powers using only the passive regeneration. Mental is well-off in this regard. Since Cryokinesis sets up and uses its own power interaction. Mental can just keep spamming it as an optimized rotation. Throw in Pyrokinesis if you want a Cryokinesis encasement buster. With respect to Gadgets, the best you can do is cast Cryo-Foam to setup a power interaction and spam one of the Grenade powers until it is time to setup the PI again. If you try to do something else, you run into issues. Fear Gas leaves you vulnerable to interrupt and has poor PI consumer bonus. Cryo-Foam's cooldown is long enough that you can't rotate it as part of a 2 or 3 power chain. I think bumping the damage on Fear Gas's power interaction will help out some. I don't have a good answer for Cryo-Foam. Reducing the cooldown on Cryo-Foam even further will require some trade-off.

    Mine Powers
    The primary issue here is that utlity of the the mine powers overlap other easier-to-use Gadgets powers. Thermite Mine is a Burning PI applicator with a low AoE radius. Napalm Grenade accomplishes the same thing and has better upsides. Implosion Mine has a lot of overlap with EMP Pulse. I don't want to see Napalm Grenade and EMP Pulse be nerfed to make the mines more attractive. That is the wrong approach to take. Outside of completely replacing/reconceptualizing the Mine powers, the only thing you can do is keep buffing their damage and auto-detonation/AoE range.

    Sticky Bomb
    As I pointed out in previous posts, Sticky Bomb has too much overlap with Napalm Grenade right now. Their damage ranges are very close and both act as encasement breakers. Napalm Grenade has a cheaper power cost and sets up a power interaction. Assuming these powers aren't flipped around in the power applicator/interaction web, Sticky Bomb could use a bit of a damage and range buff.

    Suppressor Turret
    I think the concept of a high-cost, limited duration PI applicator pet for a multi-power interaction powerset is flawed. Since the power interactions are setup at random by Turret, you're never sure if the power interaction is going to benefit you. For 500 base power cost, you can use three other powers to setup your own power interactions. However, I can see Suppressor Turret working as a limited duration pet that is focused on damage that receives bonuses from consuming power interactions. I don't think that would be too difficult to balance if Turret had a couple of standard attacks and had a 300 base power cost.

    Taser Pull
    I can see this working either as a low-cost single target or high-cost single target damage power. If it is going to be left as a high-cost power, it needs a couple of adjustments:
    1. Taser Pull is the Level 1 Gadgets power. That is followed up by EMP Pulse, which makes two high-cost powers in a row. Taser Pull should have its place in the level tree swapped with Gauss Grenade.
    2. It should have a Dazed/Frostbite power interaction to further boost damage. That would help to develop the web of power interactions a bit further.
    • Like x 3
  18. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    To be honest I'm not sure Taser Pull would be all that useful if it was just a cheap PI setup. It has its niche obviously but unless it still did more damage on a single target than Gauss Grenade, most people would probably just choose the latter (especially considering GG exploits some PI itself). I didn't a lot of time with Taser Pull before this change, did it do more damage than GG? If it did then it would probably be alright to return it to a cheap electrify setter.

    I do not agree about Thermite Mine and Napalm. The only overlap they have is the multi target burn setup. They are both dots so you can use them together and they don't override since the dot isn't bound to the burn PI anymore. That means in the worst case, Thermite Mine is a cheap, melee range alternative to Napalm for setting up burn. In the best case, it's a decent multi target dot for dot focused melee rotations. That said, the range on TMine should definitely be buffed to 7m.
    Implosion Mine however has no niche of its own and should either be made cheap or utilize Burn or Frostbite to make it unique.

    I'd rather compare Sticky to CFoam because they're both bursts that exploit burn. CFoam does almost the same damage for lower cost. I think what could be done here is to decrease CFoam's cooldown by around 0.1-0.2 seconds to allow for a fluid CFoam->Napalm->Gauss rotation and make it fit better with a couple of weapon combos, and in return increase Sticky's cooldown by 0.8-1s.
    That way Foam's damage would go down slightly but make it easier to build around (a fair tradeoff imo) and Sticky's damage could go up significantly with only a negligible impact on its usability. Sticky would then be a viable alternative to EMP and Vortex Cannon then with a shorter cooldown and lower damage, but higher payoff relative to its Power cost.
    That is, unless anyone actually wants Sticky to be spammable in its current form, but do we really prefer the option of an expensive 1111 spam rotation with a full Power spec over having another decent heavy hitter?

    Agreed absolutely. No one ever used Turret to setup PI because it's not reliable and there are many offensive powers available to use that instantly setup the PI we want on the targets we want. "It's meant as a CC and PI setup pet" was one of the greatest BS statements when Gadgets got its AM makeover and Turret did less damage than RSK. I say just balance it around damage, let it benefit from our PI and give it 100% uptime.
    500 Power cost is ridiculous as it is. It can keep some CC for all I care but those aren't reliable either and interfere with my own CC by making targets immune or encasing them in Troll stance.
    If it has to have a support function then let it throw some power dumps every now and then or better, give me a shield so I'll consider it for any melee build.
    • Like x 2
  19. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    Wait is that canon now or do you just not want to fix the name? :D
    Since we're already talking about it, here's some visual feedback from me about power naming options:
    • EMP :)
    • Electromagnetic Pulse :)
    • Electromagnetic Paralyzing Pulse ;)
    • EMP Pulse :(
    • Like x 1
  20. Penryn Loyal Player

    In my view, Taser Pull went from that "cheap pull power you'll use sometimes" to "expensive pull power you'll probably never use" in the latest hotfix.

    As for Base Damage, here are the current stats:
    Gauss Grenade: 56-62 base damage, 200 power cost, 0.5 second cooldown
    EMP Pulse: 91-99 base damage, 300 power cost, 3 second cooldown
    Taser Pull: 90-100 base damage, 300 power cost, 3 second cooldown

    EMP and Gauss Grenade both get a 10% bonus when the PI is setup.

    I don't have full base damage information for the last hotfix. According to my notes, Taser Pull was doing a little more damage than Paralyzing Dart with both being 100 base power.

    If Taser Pull is intended to fill the single-target damage niche, it needs something extra added to it and it probably shouldn't be the first power that a Gadgets player learns.

    Thermite and Napalm Grenade can both stack on top of themselves. Stacking Napalm Grenade, I'm averaging 10.1k/s on 10 second parses for three targets. Thermite Mine averages ~3.5k/s in the same test. Alternating the two gives me ~8.5k/s. The problem with Thermite Mine is that you lose a lot of dps in your deployment time. If you're using a Hybrid playstyle, it is easier to use Napalm to clip a weapon attack and then move into your next attack.

    Just for my playstyle, I prefer Napalm Grenade to Thermite Mine as a Burning PI applicator. Once the fighting starts in solo/duo combat, I found Thermite Mine to be a real pain to use in some situations. Thermite Mine is cheaper to use, but I'm not going to use it unless there is something to keep aggro away from me. Bumping the range will help some. If the cast time is reduced as well, I expect the damage output will be lowered too.

    To me, it seems like the Mine powers are a relic from the first version of Gadgets and they are square pegs trying to be fit in round holes.

    I think part of the problem here is that Sticky Bomb has been adjusted to fill the "high-cost power that you can spam without any cooldowns" template. That has unfortunately resulted in it being a heavy power drain for mediocre damage ouptut. The high cost and low AoE range is making me want to avoid using it in real-world loadouts.

    I'm not sure what a 1 second cooldown for Sticky Bomb would give you in trade. It might bring it up to Vortex Cannon's base damage level, but it is hard to tell. The 3 second cooldown on Vortex Cannon is a concession to its crowd control capabilities.

    I'd like to see a slightly reduced cooldown on Cryo-Foam for rotation purposes, but I'm weary of what else would be adjusted.
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