Sorcery: A Data-Driven Review

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by 478874, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. planetkiller500 Active Player

    I agree, karmic backlash should yield more damage for being a close range move.
  2. mrx Level 30

    The fix is easy,
    give weapons more power then we can Play as weapon expert
    Or give 1 good skill
    or make furry greater
    or make transmute better
    or,or, or...
    do anything, ist allways better as nothing !
  3. planetkiller500 Active Player

    Im sorry to tell you this, the fix is not easy.
  4. mrx Level 30

    Not easy...?
    Wake up, this is the Basic of the game...
  5. loupblanc Dedicated Player

    Thanks to the Dev team for the fix.

    I am anti-pet in the sense that I feel pet damage should take up no more than 40% of total damage.

    My suggestion for a new pet mechanic would be to have a new pet loadout ala Gadgets Stealth / Mental Invisibility. You can then place all three pet powers (Guardian/Fury/Watcher) + any Supercharge + return to normal mode. All the pets are temporary and disappear after a certain period of inactivity. The switch animation should be super duper short. You can then use Guardian in alerts even as a dps just to tank in certain situations.

    There is no more need to use Offering to power the pet. Offering can be reconfigured for another function, perhaps a self-buff mechanic.

    Guardian has never been integral to Sorcery DPS, and only provided situational usage for Sorcery Healer in alerts. Fury gained prominence only during the AM era. However, the Watcher pet has always been a signature for Sorcery Healing, much as I dislike the pet AI and how wasteful the Watcher pet can be. Hence, the power regeneration penalty for the Watcher pet hits Sorcery particularly hard.

    Yes, Sorcery no longer has a signature playstyle or flavour.

    Lets not forget about how Transmute and its fun factor was destroyed when the Transmute Clownbox fake damage became popular and Transmute's functionality was changed and made unfun for some people.

    Disagree.

    Its easier, mathematically speaking, to make the pets all temporary, instead of permanent. They then function like dot powers. Balancing then becomes easier.

    As long as permanent pets exist for Sorcery, balancing pet versus non-pet loadouts will be unduly complicated, even though pet loadouts were never really much of a thing until the AM era.
    • Like x 2
  6. loupblanc Dedicated Player

    Projectiles are one of the issues plaguing Sorcery, not the only core issue.

    Instead of wasting time on a projectile fix, it may be easier to just discard the projectile powers and make the damage instant on casting.

    Then, you do away also with the issue of having to balance by calculating and then giving slighting increased damage to compensate for the delayed damage from projectiles.

    So Soul Barrage and Soul Storm become non-projectile. Soul Bolt's name implies that it is a projectile power, so the easy thing is just change the name and make the power function like an AOE Vengeance, without the projectiles.

    Since the projectile issue is not a simple fix, why waste time on it? Just choose the simplest solution and move on to other stuff.
    • Like x 1
  7. loupblanc Dedicated Player

    Not really. Shard of Life was introduced in GU 32. But that did not make it the cornerstone of Sorcery loadouts.

    The Destiny Tree continued to be the predominant tree versus the Summoning Tree. Up until the AM era. As for the WM era, I was on break from DCUO so I would not know.

    The big change from GU 32 with the loss of the Vengeance Aura was the big thing. The loss of Critical Healing Chance by 10%, Critical Healing Magnitude by 15%, Critical Ability Chance by 10% and Critical Ability Damage by 1% for 18 seconds, that you could grant to yourself and your group, that was the big loss.

    Weapon of Destiny continued to be common and a signature of all Sorcery dps loadouts, even through the AM era. However, a key thing which few people note is that Weapon of Destiny damage output is minor if doing 1H phantom Flip Slash, as you never hit more than 2 might ticks from WOD if you were truly phantom slashing. WOD was more for clipping purposes only. But using Handblasters, you would get all the might ticks from WOD.

    Losing the might ticks from Weapon of Destiny is a big thing for Sorcery and more damage to Sorcery versus the other powersets and their equivalents eg Gadgets Intimidation. Mainly because WoD never provided any buff but was used mainly as a burst move, which paired perfectly with 1H Flurry, or Bow Arrow Storm / Flurry Shot.

    Transmutation was already a bit crippled pre WM/AM because of the Transmutation Clownbox fix, an issue that arose only because Clownbox was removed from Gadgets, iirc.

    I do not see an issue with making Transmutation more bursty though.

    Wrong wrong wrong. As long as the pets are permanent, you will always face the conundrum of balancing pet versus non-pet loadouts.

    So from a functional and technical perspective, I feel it is easier to just make the pets temporary and function like dot powers, and have a new pet mechanic for the pet lovers to summon all three pets at the same time if they so choose.

    While non-pet lovers can use other powers that have been fixed for proper damage without worrying about that fix boosting pet loadout damage out.

    Wrong wrong wrong absolutely wrong.

    CoD works because of the double dot. Without the double dot, it becomes just a meh power. Just like Soul Well is meh without the ability to stack 3 Soul Wells and the loss of the crit buff.

    Sorcery has never been best played as a burst power set, from pre-WM/AM era.
    • Like x 3
  8. loupblanc Dedicated Player

    Unsure about this. I just think that Karmic Backlash should be made to function with Bad Karma, as its name implies.

    Maybe Karmic Backlash can be 300 power cost, and Transmutation be the 200 power cost no pi involvement and make it balanced versus the other powersets.

    Easy fix is to just remove projectiles completely.

    For Soul Barrage and Soul Storm, they need to be mobile powers, period. No issue with losing damage if jump cancelled, but then the damage out must be big. Or make it mobile, but you cannot jump cancel it, but it will provide consistent dps.

    No. Adding a CC move is contradictory. Revamp rules already are clear about that. If a power has CC, it will do reduced damage.

    Considerations for solos should never be involved. Balancing should revolve around raids and alerts, period.
    • Like x 2
  9. planetkiller500 Active Player

    The points that you bring up will not only effect sorcery,they will effect other powers aswell, and all of sudden you have more work for the devs.
    • Like x 1
  10. Hendrix Well-Known Player

    New idea. Just for consideration.
    What if all the powers with "SOUL" in the name caused a stun that froze the soul of the target, maybe a frozen-in-place target would get hit by the projectiles?

    Soul Syphon, Soul Bolt, Soul Barrage, Soul Storm, Soul I-don't-remember... those powers grab the soul. Some could be AOE freeze (barrage), some could be cone area freeze (syphon), some could be single target freeze (bolt). IDK. Just an idea.
  11. mrx Level 30

    The fix was for nothing, sorcery still broken as hell
  12. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    WTF are you mumbling about ?
    After the first Sorc revamp, all the goodies have been in Summoning tree and the only good powers in Destiny were Weapon of Destiny and Circle of Destruction.

    After Pets I completely stopped using CoD, cause it was a damage lose compared to clipping weapons only with Transmutation and it didnt support Fury in any away.

    Losing the WoD's Might procs while slashing the air with 1Handed was not a big deal at all cause , Flip Slash was doing way better damage than ranged weapons anyway.

    CoD is not meh power by new post revamp standards, it hits as hard as other field DoTs and it does great damage for a PI applying superpower.

    Pets and Projectiles wont change much from what they are atm, Revamp is over and all Devs gonna commit to are bug fixes and fine tuning damage. It would be very naive to think they gonna completely revamp Sorcery after 1 year undergoing revamp was just done. Telling them to remove or change half powers and replace them with new ones wont lead to anything.
    • Like x 2
  13. loupblanc Dedicated Player

    Its clear to me, that you only know Sorcery from WM/AM era. Your knowledge of Sorcery pre Wm/Am era is severely lacking.

    The only comparison people should make is comparing post-revamp versus PRE Wm/Am era. Comparisons post-revamp against Wm/Am era are stupid comparisons, because this revamp is brought about because of Wm/Am power creep.

    What first Sorc revamp are you talking about? All my comments compare Sorcery post-recent Revamp with Pre WM/AM era.

    Losing WoD might procs is a big deal because pre WM/AM era, WoD was Sorcery's burst damage. During AM era, it was relegated to just a clipping move. Post-revamp, without WoD might ticks, one of Sorcery's burst damage moves is removed.

    CoD is a meh power now. Because pre Wm/Am era, Sorcery depended on CoD (2 dots) and Soul Well (3 stacked for 3 dots) for the burn in boss fights. Without 2 dots, CoD is meh. Earth faces the same problem with Debris Field now being 1 dot. Other powersets with AoE dot powers like Ice Wintry Tempest, have always provided just 1 dot. But Sorcery and Earth AOE dot power provides 2 dots on targets with PI. Losing that extra dot without compensation is bad post-Revamp.

    For Fury and Guardian, they have never ever been important pre Wm/Am. Watcher however has always been a signature for Sorcery healers. I am repeating myself, but I must emphasize that trying to balance pet versus non-pet loadouts is a conundrum. Because any changes to increase damage of non-pet powers are likely to boost the dps of pet loadouts over and above what non-pet loadouts can do. Hence my suggestion to make pets temporary instead of permanent, and treat pets like dot powers. And add in a new pet mechanic loadout ala Invisibility or Stealth loadouts, where pet lovers can summon all 3 pets at the same time if they wish.

    Its been mentioned that fixing the projectiles is not so simple. Then, the simplest, quickest, time-efficient and cost-efficient solution is just remove the projectile powers plaguing Sorcery rather than fix it. Make them AOE, mobile powers with instant cast damage.
    • Like x 1
  14. Immortal Kyrro Loyal Player

    I agree with the loss of wod price, 3rd sw, and cod double tick. I don't agree with temporary pets being the answer. I still believe a base damage increase without pets and a base damage penalty with pets is the proper way to balance it. Not this power regen penalty crap. This also includes a buff to pets base damage.

  15. Copper Scorpio New Player

    SMH... I don't know if we are running out of ideas or running into a dryspell,because from what I've experienced the power has been nothing more but futile since the unnecessary nerfs to begin with every revamp.

    Thus, I've voiced against all of them and still nothing as result due to popularity of the power or substantial quick fixes for the times.
    Moving on I have stated if sorcery's is to be ,"the pet/ summoning power", then let it be . Though not in the way it is givien to us now.

    First off pets or Summonings must mirror the actions of the Summoners bitting. For example, if I summon guardian not only will he remain behind or Infront of your toon at all times (Think Amon sur /Jo Jo's Adventure) he also should mirror the animations of your weapon and give an increase to defense/weapon damage.

    Next we have ,Fury.Fury, when summoned increases might damage at a cost of health and defense.When players are at lower percentages of health players will gain an increase to might damage.

    Then we have watcher which increases strength in heals and heals team members at lowest Heatlh at the cost of power.

    Finally, my most beloved ability in the game before the quick fixes of the past , Transmutaton.
    Transmutation needs to be returned to its former glory because as of now it is nothing more than a replica of the past . I mean seriously karmaic backlash part 2 ....you have my respectful apologies but this is no where near creative. Rather lets find a way to utilize these high weaponization stats of ours (hint, hint,hint).

    Anyway been in game since the beginning and just want to see it go even further. " It takes a village to raise a child."
  16. mrx Level 30

    I have no hope for a quick solution, at the moment there is no sense sorc as DD to play, there is no good loadout.
  17. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Yeah quick nerfs/ "fixes" usually cripple power sets for months if not years ahead. Sorcery and Electricity are perfect examples of utilities being taken way constantly throughout years.

    I agree that Pets AI is not perfect and the potency of their effects is questionable atm.

    Fury for example seem to hit for about 4K at my 198 cr but with 14k+ Might every ability that crits hits for 2x more damage if not more. Even fully Prec specced and with only 60SP in Might most superpowers can hit multiple times in a row close or higher than Fury's big hit. At this point Fury may be semi decent only for low CR / low stat players but at about 300 SP it just doesnt cut it.
    I think increasing Passive power regen penalty + Damage buff are in order just for Fury and Crystal(Earth), which would be best way to further separate Pets from PftT without increasing immediate cost of Offering which would hurt Weapon Expert+Pet players.

    Watcher and Guardian are very bad atm.
    I find no use for Guardian and Watcher is not a reliable healing friend either.
    I only use Watcher in alerts and only feed it a little through Ritualistic Words cause Offering is a total waste of space.
    I think that Offering should have some small 4 man healing effect in Healer role cause now just feeding power to chaotic acting Watcher is weak and inconsistent combination. Ritualistic Words' small power return should work for both Watcher and Guardian since they are both defensive pets. It would also be nice if Soul Well for example would restore small amount of power to Pets upon cast too. My current raid healing loadout has nothing Pets related, I prefer it that way cause of no power return penalty and total control of how and when I spend power and apply healing. Watcher kinda lacks enough support and control.
  18. Hendrix Well-Known Player

    Just a bump to reiterate that you should just use Transmute followed by Vengeance 12x in a row to dps with sorcery. Don't do anything else. No pets, no shards, no final ruin, no rotation. You can be at the top of the scorecard if you transmute/vengeance spam. Top of the scorecard.

    To be clear. I am not advocating. I just think the discussion above sounds desperate to retain old sorcery glory. Those days are gone. Spam vengeance.
    • Like x 1
  19. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Im not that desperate.
    If nothing gets changed, few people who have Sorc as main will use respec token or stop playing.
    Meanwhile Id rather test and post about rotations I want to play and why and where they come short.
    I didnt use Gorilla exploit at my Nature and I wont use 12x Vengeance either, its not 90s arcade game here after all. :rolleyes:
    • Like x 2
  20. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    No. This isn't how the power is supposed to be played.

    Not that I'm holding my breath or waiting around, like electric and nature players, for changes.
    • Like x 2