So You Want To Save PVP?

So a whole lot of PVP discussion popped up on the boards this weekend, mostly due to this thread and Mepps' thorough and concise response to it:

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dc...break-game-company.297989/page-2#post-4162770

So. If we really want PvP to return to its glory days, we're going to have to put in some effort to prove to the devs that spending development time on PVP is a worthwhile pursuit for both us and them. I think that these are the essentials:

Challenge Number One: Monetization

Whether we want it to be true or not, money makes the world go 'round. It also fuels this game. If the devs are going to spend valuable resources on PVP, they absolutely must get some return on their investment. And yes, the community may have to make some sacrifices if they really want PVP to get some attention.

History: originally, PVP was subscription-only because the game was subscription-only - many people consider the first ten months of 2011 as DCUO's PVP Golden Age perhaps because of the sub model - but it certainly wouldn't work today. The Last Laugh was conceived as a PVP Episode, but is largely considered to be one of our worst DLCs, so another PVP-centric episode is right out. And then after the game went F2P, for a short time, the devs toyed with Replay Badge unlocking of PVP rewards, but that didn't go over well at all. And thus PvP has languished.

Solution Spitballing:
-As a game, we've never dipped our toes into the advertising revenue stream. Would PvPers have the patience to watch a 20 second trailer for Aquaman or Heroes in Crisis or DC Streaming's Titans series?
-How about a PvP-only subscription? $4.99 a month for unlimited access to all maps/etc while other maps go back to a daily/weekly rotation? Perhaps a modified version of the Replay Badge plan, where you get 5 matches a day for free, but can unlock 5 more for $.99?
-Other games sell cosmetics to make money - perhaps the Marketplace could hold some new Legends skins (of characters already in game, much like the Bombshells skins, so as not to tax the devs' resources).

I dunno; this is by far the biggest hurdle. I certainly don't have any good answers - and that may be because there aren't any good answers. But if we want the devs to spend any time on PVP, we are going to have to show them the money - and do it up front.

Challenge Number Two: Getting People To Play

When the devs walk into the office every morning, they can check their servers and tell exactly how many people played PvE over the previous 24 hours versus the number that played PVP. And I get the distinct feeling that the PvP numbers are small. Tiny. Wee. Nobody is playing.

Now some of that is undoubtedly because of the current state of PVP. Yay, Catch-22. But if we want the devs to work on PVP fixes, we have to show them that we are actually playing PVP. And to get people playing, we have to get them to want to play with incentives that go deeper than a few feats and styles. And it all has to be easy for the devs to implement - we should be doing as much of the legwork as we can.

Spitballing Solutions:
-Find people in your Leagues/Friendlists that haven't finished their PVP Feats and get them playing.
-Queues don't pop because there's nobody playing - but this also might be helped by diminishing the number of maps available each day/month. Funneling folks into one or two maps might help with queue times.
-We can and should set up PVP days amongst ourselves, just to get the needle to jump. Monday, Tuesday nights perhaps when the PVE stuff is all accomplished for the week. Someone set up an 8v8 night a few Fridays ago (a great idea!), but Fridays are tough for some folks. Maybe some PVP Leagues can step up and organize such a thing.
-The game already has rankings for players somewhere on the servers - that's how matchmaking works. I'm not personally driven by a need for glory, but some people are realllllly competitive and might like a Leaderboard. As long as it doesn't take too much dev time to implement it.

Challenge Number Three: The Community

We simply cannot be so insular. We have to be open and inviting to new PVPers, and we have to give them a chance to win - both in game and on the boards. We have to stop fighting for what is good for our own personal play styles and look at what is good for the balance of the game as a whole, finding consensus quickly and without rage-inducing conflict. We cannot get into the kinds of back-and-forth that turn off new players, and we can't make PVP the kind of thing that only 1% of the population plays.

Spitballing Solutions:
-Give noobs (or bad players) some sort of advantage as they learn. PowerUps when KO'd, extra crit chances - SOMEthing that gives them a chance to win against even the best. Yes, some players will take advantage of this, but we need more bodies in the arenas, period. And studies have shown that folks will continue to play a new game more often if they win at least once in awhile.
-PVP Leagues could volunteer time/effort to help new players, creating a more healthy (if still competitive) atmosphere.

Now there are a lot of specific things that I'd like to see fixed in PVP, but - in my humble opinion - we need to start with the most basic foundational aspects outlined above.

Because if we can't prove to the devs that we are willing to get behind PVP as a united playerbase, there's not much reason for them to even try.

PvP is the reason i dont have over 400 sp....it is no fun playing against speed hackers! Plus the reward is not worth the time...

This was a nicely-written post, though I personally don't find any of the solutions feasible (some of them would've worked if implemented from the start, but they weren't).

This is just my POV of course, and I realize others have different perspectives.

1. Monetization

You hit the nail on the head, this is by far the most challenging aspect. If the devs had kept PVP sub-based from the get-go, this could've worked. Many games do this with PVP, letting non-subs only play a few matches per day. PVP in these games provides access to exclusive, cool styles (think the kind of gear we used to get from SM, or special glowy weapons unique to PVP, etc.). Unfortunately, that means art team resources that could honestly be better spent (as far as profits are concerned at least) on TCs and episodes.

If the devs tried to charge people ANYTHING to play PVP at this moment in time, it would be even worse of a flop as far as attracting players goes than currently.

2. Population

People sometimes form groups to trade wins for the feats. This is humorous because A. even doing this they hate it, and B. the second they're done with feats they never set foot in PVP again. Trying to get people who hate PVP to play PVP never works in any MMO. In other words, only people who actually enjoy PVPing will ever be prospective PVP customers, and they will always be the significant minority (even in the heyday the numbers were like 20% or something).

3. The Community

If there's one thing I learned from the revamp, it's that the majority of the community will always gravitate towards exploits, FOTM and the most selfish way to play possible. People don't want to lose, they don't want to help new players, etc. They want to crush them, gank at every opportunity and insult when possible, lol. Not everyone is like this, of course. But the majority? Definitely.

This is why investing in PVP basically means creating a second DCUO. Bugs have to be fixed related to PVP only. PVE changes have to be analyzed for their PVP effects. Exploits and balancing has to take place with regard to PVP only. Roles have to be adapted so their effects are strong enough to be noticed but strong enough to overtake other roles. Same for certain powers. To do PVP right, it would require a total revamp. Anything less would just lead to complaints and excuses ("I will support PVP and I know 500 other friends who will support PVP only when THIS or THAT happens the way we want.")

It's sad because in many games PVP is a great boredom killer in between episodes. In this one though, it's just an unneeded distraction for most people. They would rather grind paradox reapers in CC than set foot in arenas, lol. Maybe the game is just too focused on grind vs. hanging around and having fun.

Edit reason: Spelling and grammar corrections.

I think the option 1 is an amazing idea but what advantages could they obtain it?

Lol I run into 1 speedhacker for every 10 atomic tank or rage spammer or stealth spammer

The way I'd entice the PvEers to play more PvP is to add a ton of new feats. Like hundreds of feats mostly to legends since that to me seems the easiest to balance since you don't have to worry about balancing the powers between PvE and PvP. The feats I'd add would be win feats for maps that don't have them yet like FOS 8v8, Ace 2v2, Inner Sanctum 2v2, Isis 4v4 and so on. Next I would add feats for getting wins and kills with each legend. Have a win 5, 10 and 25 matches and kill 25, 50 and 100 players with Bane, Harley, Joker Etc. feats for every single legend so people who want high SP for raids will feel like they have to play PvP. We have so many legends that if they add these feats as 10, 25 and 50 feat points each it would give a pretty decent chunk to get more people PvPing. Another thing would be to tie legends to time capsules like the artifacts where if you open a certain number like 5 or 10 you get a new legend skin through the mail.

Why most are not willing to try and get the feats that already exist in any form of PVP now.

I'm apathetic about getting the feats they have now because of the state of pvp, only planning to tackle them if I ever run out of pve feats to go after. Don't know if I'm unusual in this, but I don't think adding more feats is going to entice people into a broken system.

If the devs are serious about considering bring life back to PvP, i have a low cost high profit solution. The only issue is the community acceptance of a PvP reboot and starting new.

Before getting into it, let's look at what the average PvP is like. In the 7 years I've played the game, PvP players haven't changed that much.

PvP players seek status, they want everyone to look at them and know that they PvP. Examples of this is the classic 'captain cold helm' that almost every pvper wore. It was a symbol of a pvper (for some reason) and they all wore it. There were a few other styles that became symbols of PvP. The point is, pvpers like to show they PvP. The gear wasn't as important as style.

So on to my idea.

Step 1, stat bound PvP - everyone has the same stats. Fresh lvl 30 stats perhaps.
* this would put all players, new or old on the same playing field.

Step2 .- straight up steal the 'seasons' idea from Fortnite. Tier progression that unlocks styles as the player progresses.
Tier 1 - 100.
Now just like Fortnite, there would be 2 progression bars.
1 is for free to play and the other is for those who buy the seasons pass.
So basic styles for f2p progression, and fancier styles for season pass owners.

Tier progression would happen in arenas, 2v2 and 1v1, but not in scrims or duals.

Now in my opinion, the main reason PvP is dead is due to the extent long time to get gear, turning off many new players is that they must accept losing 500 matches before they get enough marks to buy gear. There is no " catchup" option in PvP. Grind grind and more grind. Many players just choose to duel in pve gear instead.

People just want to PvP, they want their skill to be the deciding factor and not stats on gear.
But players want some reward also.

So in my option, a stat bound PvP with styles as rewards would be just what the game needs. Broken up in seasons, making certain styles rare and a symbol of their effort.

Example of rewards could be new emotes, materials, auras, dances(everyone loves to dance) , base items... The list could go on..

Ps writing this on my phone at work. Excuse any errors

People already hate the feats in PVP. So let's add more feats on top of those. SAY WHAT??

I hate to bust your bubble but more feats would be a no go. Making new stuff for DCUO does not need feats. We as a whole have to think about new players. Adding more stuff on top of the humongous pile of feats that are already there would deter players away not bring them in.

Then on top of that. We have the outrageous combos that take too long to do. Anything more than 5 clicks in PVP takes too long. All the weapons have some really good looking combos but it just takes too long to get there. Weapons need another input to make the flow faster.

I think DCUO could add PVP TC's and that would help get the ball rolling as far as funding goes. They could try using the old TC's and only make them drop in PVP or just take the items out of the old TC's and start adding them into the PVP TC's. The devs would also need to adjust the loot drop in PVP to where they work like NPC's loot drops in open world.

RE: Challenge number two, getting people to play.
Spitballing Solutions:
-Queues don't pop because there's nobody playing - but this also might be helped by diminishing the number of maps available each day/month. Funneling folks into one or two maps might help with queue times.
Yes very much, ultimately maps not being on rotation has more con's than pro's. I would like to see the return of the map rotation. However the biggest concern was always feat giving maps, so I would encourage priority be given to feat giving maps.

-We can and should set up PVP days amongst ourselves, just to get the needle to jump. Monday, Tuesday nights perhaps when the PVE stuff is all accomplished for the week. Someone set up an 8v8 night a few Fridays ago (a great idea!), but Fridays are tough for some folks. Maybe some PVP Leagues can step up and organize such a thing.
This has always been a thing and only really dried up due to the state PvP is in. If certain fixed are made, this will return naturally.

-The game already has rankings for players somewhere on the servers - that's how matchmaking works. I'm not personally driven by a need for glory, but some people are realllllly competitive and might like a Leaderboard. As long as it doesn't take too much dev time to implement it.
This is probably the least controversial and most requested feature for PvP along with Lobbys. It's been requested so long I suspect there isn't a lack of will from the devs, it's probably a technical issue, perhaps collecting the kind of data to make a leaderboard just isn't possible. Instead they could add a recent matches win/loss counter than is inspectable. It's not perfect and definitely prone to abuse, but would satiate some of the more ego-driven PvP players.

Further to your list, I think the game itself needs to push people into PvP. It doesn't really make any sense to say to PvPers, you must PvE to progress your character but saying to PvE, nah it's cool, you can mostly ignore PvP. I think two or 3 years ago, there was (ratio wise) enough feats in PvP to make it worthwhile at least attempting to get some feats. Without at least some PvP feats you would likely have been behind the average SP for the time. However now that PvE feat have far outstripped PvP, people can achieve above average skill points without needing PvP feats. This is a massive disincentive.

I actually agree with adding more PvP feats. People should have multiple avenues to obtain feats. I would personally prefer grinding PvP than finding a group for some of the harder raid feats. Those that aren't as interested in PvE at least have something to strive for and can feel they can progress there character significantly within their preferred game mode. It's important to note that different incentives will work for different players, there is no point in trying to find one golden incentive as it will not incentivise everyone. Best to have a multitude of incentives to hit as many players as possible. Additional feats is definitely an incentive for people already interested in PvP but are perhaps bored as they have completed all gear and have nothing to grind for.
Side note: Adding feats to PvP only makes balance harder, overall I think feats are a good incentive, but balance needs to be taken into consideration as well.

For people not already interested in PvP they just need to try it. I might dig out an old comment of mind for like 2014 where I was absolutely hating on PvP, every experience I had with it I hated and only desired feats from it. Fast forward to now and it's my favourite game mode by a very long mile. The reason? I stuck with it long enough for it to become enjoyable, simple as that. Not everyone is going to have the same experience as me, and trust me it did take a long while before it stopped being annoying and started being fun. But I feel if PvE people where given more incentives, PvE rewards etc, they may stick around long enough to start enjoying it.

One idea is to allow blue (or even purple) level agnostic gear to drop from time to time. They don't even have to be related to winning, it could just be a participation reward. Maybe even have a journal mission that requires you to participate in 10 PvP matches with the reward being anything from gear, exo's, quarks & even straight up cash. Have it refresh every week or month.

I also think cash (in game not real obviously) would also be a good incentive and a neat little soft incentive for people to sub. For example, imagine a recurring journal mission that requires you to knockout 50 players in PvP arena's or legends and the reward was 1.5mill. To some that is chump change, but to others they may find PvPing preferable to whatever other means they would use to obtain that amount of money. Secondly it would be a soft incentive for all those premium PvPer's, seeing all that money go into their escrow might make some sub up to take advantage of that cash which brings me to:

Make PvP styles tradable. I don't agree with reducing the grind (unless for alts) or allowing this gear to be purchased in any other way hat through the vendor with MoV. However I would be happy if they allowed PvP gear to be tradable.
Second side note: I know a lot of the above would be subject to abuse and I recognise that however if we can not get too bogged down with the hypotheticals for now it would be great!
Also RE: cash incentive, I know I know, we would need a vendor of some sort to pull some of that money back out of the economy so we don't cause yet more inflation.

You have some good ideas but you are missing the point about Pvp. The mechanics are broken. All it is just spamming powers and takes no skill. I find it amazing that people always try to find an answer but never really understand the problem.

I appreciate the spirit of the thread, but Do Your Googles is correct in regard that they need to at least put up effort to make PvP enjoyable if they want to get people playing it again,n that means making small adjustments until it's just right, or gets minimal backlash.

We're the customers, they're the ones trying to sell a product, we shouldn't be the ones trying to convince them the product is worth buying...

What will happen is if we suddenly get an influx of pvpers, queues are popping, etc, that will tell the devs that everything must be fine if enough people are playing it. Despite how well they've been doing lately, I'm not disregarding their past of taking the cheapest cop outs.

It's just to late. Most of the die hard pvpers are gone.

The time for the possibility of a pvp come back has come and gone. It should have been done with the actual revamp. The couple of years leading up to and now a year post revamp, most people opinion of pvp is just bad.

The reason I keep taking breaks, and pondering quitting, is because of pvp or the lack of pvp. Running simulations over, and over, and over against AI gets very boring. Trying to be tops in damage got boring years ago. Even playing battle roles is not as much fun.

Not related to the thread itself; but your title made me think of this:



"So do you wanna fix PvP? It doesn't have to be PvP..."

I actually wrote a parody about PvP with this song, but not going to share this.
*Clear throat* ahem. Okay, move on with your lives.

Nope. I wanna see it burn a fiery death in agony.

Thank you MrMigraine.
While I don't like your answers, I really think you are asking the right questions.

For monetization I would suggest a progression booster. Pay to "level" faster. That's something a few games do and it seems to work well.

I usually stay out of most PvP related stuff, because I mostly washed my hands of it. (I did talk to Mepps in that closed thread, because I do feel they need to do something.) But I take notice to this comment right here.

If there is no value in it, they wont do it at all. Otherwise time capsules wouldn't have existed. It's obvious from their sales point that it makes money and it's still making money so they do more.

It comes down to it, they've tried the monetization route with Last Laugh. (Such a fitting title...) That didn't end well. They tried the map rotation, but that didn't end well either. They tried to make it more like Legends, that ended so badly that it made the other two attempts look like a bouquet of flowers. They tried to make it where it was new player friendly and players loved to steam roll so they cheated the system. They tried to fix the incentive problem with loot because people were fed up with all the changes so they were just forfeiting the matches. What do they have? Because of all the attempts of making it more revenue generating or fixes, they've got a hot mess that would cost them MORE to fix.

I feel that they have two options, 1) either revert it completely back to how it was before Last Laugh (with the new maps of course) or 2) just leave it as it is and award everyone the feats that are stuck behind it.

We can kick and scream and beg and plead all we want, but the vocal minority does not make up the revenue to sell said product.

Oh and I can sum up the start of all the changes, exploits. And I'm not talking about speed hackers which is so friggin minimal in this game. The moment something becomes exploitable, that's when everyone does it and then they have to nerf the exploit and a butterfly effect happens.