So, I'd like to discuss this data...rationally, please

I saw that after my post... it was in jest anyway. Nothing to see here move along...

I'll comment here. The main issue with Celestial (and perhaps with HL, IDK) is that the might damage, even with a balanced build, is so weak, no ability is really worth using with WM. The damage is back-loaded into the precision combos. That's why most of us just go with buffed, dry WM combos and PcDL (or DLcP). It's a viable approach, and it would fall into the AM category, but it's really not fully utilizing the AM.

Oooo I don't see Mental.

Mental has no AM yet. You'll notice Gadgets and Ice aren't there either.

Along with Quantum. Soon though.....soon

Since HL is such a hot topic in this thread, I have to ask: Do we know yet why Inspiration is buried in such an odd place yet? I stopped following along weeks ago when the Devs stopped responding in the previous HL threads and just assumed that's where it was going to stay. Is this still a big mystery or at some point was that question answered?

While this data is intriguing, I wouldn't use it as more than a suggestion of what best fits an individual player. If you sacrifice your preferred play style you will likely lose more than you gain

The data is actually not severely flawed at all. Our labeling of it as pure AM is erroneous, but the data is spot on as far as pure WM and a hybrid of WM + AM. We simply need a third column that is our AM. That being said, it will be complicated to imagine that it becomes equal to WM without adversely bumping up WM+AM use. But maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Total speculation on those last two comments.

Can we please keep these type of posts out of this. "i am beast at this" "i can beat any power but this" and "a guy i know kills me with this" Out dpsing a different power one time means absolutely nothing. there are way to many variables in any given instance to use that sole instance to prove youre point

Also, i highly doubt the only players who have ever beaten you are rage players given the fact that youre only 103. Then you want to use the chart to prove your point about HL after basically ignoring it with your "nature AM is beast" comment. Nature AM is third lowest behind Cele and rage. And, since they dont count(no one runs a straight wm rotation with either since tbe AM isnt a WM buff exclusion) nature is the worst on the list

With all that said, yes, HL needs some tweaking (as does fire's AM which everyone will see in the next chart)

Yes, I know. The original post was related to another posters HL comment about it's Am being worse than it's WM.

I meant for you to see. Not like Leader/Score boards were everyone can see. If you can see only your performance comparatively(even if it could only show you rarely because of resources required). Like on log out after an hour or more you could see how you did during that play time vs others playing or even if it was just the next day. You can track your own numbers but that really only goes so far.

That way if I know I'm falling way below the average I need to do something. One would hope it would helps those in denial that they are not having trouble, but really I just would want to know if I need to do better or if I suck as much as I worry I do some times. I have no end of people willing to tell me I suck(whether I do or now), but there is a glaring lack of data to back that up.

The Rage AM allows for clipping off the end of the combo then cycling in a weapon attack combo that can be clipped with the start of the next power AM. This makes Rage AM very, very fast if you can execute it precisely.

I'm guessing that's what must be done to make the number higher.

It would be nice to see an updated chart with the top 50 players from each day for a week, and then average all them in at the end of the week. Or even the one sample with the top 10 averaged.

Isnt this chart that we are all talking about just showing us one day from one player, from each power set? Or am I getting something wrong.

Also what is an entire play seesions time line? Is that just one day, reset to reset?

And thanks for taking the time to explain this further with us.

Ah thanks for pointing it out.

If a player has 107 cr, 180s sps, uses HB WM vs using HB with AM vs using something like Dual Pistols WM vs using Dual Pistols with AM. (not using flex soders, supply drop, trinkets)... How close are those overall numbers to each other?

That's an interesting point. I thought the fact that you couldn't execute a WM move during the AM prevented the WM+AM hybrid. Players have to decided which to do at the moment of attacking, although I guess after the AM is over you can do WM again.

For Electricity and Nature it's that way, although for Rage I guess you could do a WM+AM since the AM is done after the initial hit. Thinking of balancing DPS by WM, AM, and WM+AM is just something I've never thought about. I have just focused on WM vs AM instead.

Where is OMAAR in all of this . That guy seemed like a sabermetrician of the HL community.

Overall stats are one thing, sabermatrics can tell a deeper story.

Yeah, that's the tricky part. Dry WM combos hit so much harder than regular weapon combos that few are going to even attempt to use the latter (though it may actually improve speed and, therefore, DPS with the AM). They've essentially replaced regular combos, for those who have the SP to spec into them. So, you then are left to balance the WM crit and the AM, while trying to exclude the dry WM combos. I can imagine how difficult that is, especially since some AMs can operate without those combos moreso than others (e.g., Electricity vs Sorcery). Additionally, some powersets and rotations can utilize WM+crit and the AM to varying degrees in a single rotation. Many DPS players will try and find the highest possible output, whatever that may be. Hybrid approaches like that muck up the works by hampering accurate balancing of the individual WM+crit and AM against each other.

It's only an issue with certain powers. As per usual, unique mechanics make for unique edge casses.

pytle, post: 2774585, member: 25"]The data is actually not severely flawed at all. Our labeling of it as pure AM is erroneous, but the data is spot on as far as pure WM and a hybrid of WM + AM. We simply need a third column that is our AM. That being said, it will be complicated to imagine that it becomes equal to WM without adversely bumping up WM+AM use. But maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Total speculation on those last two comments.[/quote]
Spytle, I have to disagree since the numbers were purported to show that AM and WM are balanced. The numbers that were for AM are severely flawed since they also rely on WM. The numbers are probably accurate for being hybrid numbers.

It seems like at the heard of the issue is that it makes sense to use the PI along with WM. How about having the PI removed, and add a scaling factor to the combo damage? Most HL players are against using a PI and it seems to make it more difficult for your team to break out the numbers. Since WM only works for the next attack there should be an advantage to using a second, third, fourth combo. Maybe something like increasing the crit chance and damage of combos and have it increase for each combo up to a reasonable limit? You then should more easily break out the numbers in order to determine if AM and WM are balanced with each other. Just to be clear, my ideas are not original but a composite of ideas that were in the HL thread that was largely ignored.