So, I'd like to discuss this data...rationally, please

actually, scratch adding fire until these new base mods come out. with max damage, fire's AM is going to suffer even more

And that is why we are arguing because your "AM numbers" are including the WM combos which now I be I elves your numbers. HL and Celestial used to do strictly combos and compete so are we to move into this new world and incorporate WM combos into everything we do or should we still be able to do what we did in the past and just do combos because I don't remember a discussion being had about changing the core game play of those two powersets. In my head I have always believed HL and Celestial didn't need to do WM combos which is why we disagreed so heavily yesterday.

I would really like to know what the lowest DPS was for a character of equal or higher level to the highest as well as the average DPS for all players of that type. Though that might do nothing but make people complain "See look how bad X DPS actually is". Still it would be nice to know.

Actually what would be really great is if the game would tell you if where your damage output fell compared to other players of your type. If you are real low then you would know how your gearing/building stands. Too often you seem to suck when maybe you actually don't. Then do similar for other roles. A Tank knowing how their damage mitigation was stacking up vs other players would be awesome. Healer would be easy as well. I guess it would be hard to define solely numerically how well Controllers were doing vs others.

Max Damage will change a lot, but since it's a DLC-locked feature, it really shouldn't be included in the balancing process.

deleted for off topic, please dont hit me!

Problem is, people will use that information to exclude other player even more.

I don't think we need to be "arguing" at all. I think having the Devs understand what we see in relation to what they see may help facilitate the whole process. If we are inflammatory about it, that communication will likely cease altogether.

But HT is pretty much given away on any sales pack, so their is a high number, or at least high enough of members that have it, I believe it should be included, or added on a different stat.

First, honestly, I don't understand half of what you just said due to typos and what not. Try rephrasing and editing to help me out.

Second, to be fair, HL players were not just using combos before, they were: comboing, clipping, jump cancelling, and using phantom triangle.

Third, assuming I get the gist of what you are saying, I believe i just said as much in regards to hybrid data versus pure, and gave you an update on our course of action on that front.

Thank you for asking Tunso.

I've tried to highlight as best I can the problem as I and I'm sure other players see it. The Weapon Mastery Weapon Combos should not be factored into the damage of the "Awesome" Mechanic for any powerset.

I asked these questions in the "Request about Changes to Light" thread:

Now we have the answers and unfortunately Weapon Mastery is flattering the Advanced Mechanics.

Editing to add, "If I'm understanding correctly."

Exactly.

We, as a player-base, should be glad there's a dialogue at all, considering how confrontational these discussion needlessly get. I'm all for people being passionate about subjects like these, but it's not like the Devs are actively dodging anything. They're busy with other things...like making and maintaining this game.

I'm not sure it can be fully ignored, because the hybrid use could then create massive double dipping to get the damage out of both methods. But I am speaking off the cuff here. As I mentioned, it gets complicated.

Please stay on topic. Scoreboard iteration is not the issue at hand in this thread.

There is one typo in there because I was typing on a phone. Celestial did just combos, and yes HL did jump canceling and phantom triangle (though this one was not needed), but they never did full weapon combos at all which is what we are doing now. I'll assume no harsh tone was ment with this post and keep mine calm just as I ask you to with me. This can be a polite conversation about the intent of AM if we allow it.

i dont know if i buy that. fire's am shouldnt under perform because of a mod that will basically be used by EVERY dps just because the mod is tied to a dlc. Every power will be getting buffed with this mod except for fire's AM. im sorry but that absolutely should be balanced and be part of the balancing process

Thank you for the responses and taking the time. (Please thank Tunso as well for helping to clarify, if you have a moment.)

Before this conversation took place I think each "side" (Player and Developer) thought the other was a little bit crazy. Now it's obvious where some of the disconnect comes from when discussing Weapon Mastery and all it's components, the Advanced Mechanics, and combinations of the two.

Spytle, thank you for the indepth response. It is greatly appreciated and explains where the disconnect is. Someone recently suggested I can my load out so I now use Summon Iconic Robot > Inspiration + Chompers > WM combo > Power Snap Trap > Fan. I usually then go WM > Chompers > WM combo > Power Snap Trap > Fan. So if I understand you correctly only the portion I highlighted in red accounts for WM damage while everything after Inspiration gets counted for AM? If this is correct then you should easily be able to see why what we are telling you does not match the numbers you are seeing.

How hard would it be for you to create a program that would run a scripted attack against a variety of enemies? Could you run a scripted attack against a variety of test dummies with different levels of defense and record the results? Like run a typical HL WM rotation against 10 add level dummies for an hour and see what the DPS is. Then try the same with 4 adds, 2 adds, 1 boss, and 2 bosses. Then do the same thing with what you feel is a proper AM combo that does not use WM at all.

There are limits to that data that you would get since you would not be interrupted or have to move but you should be able to compare AM to WM. You also would remove the randomization from having a small number of attacks since attacks have a damage range and not a consistent number. You also remove the human element so you know that the attacks are happening flawlessly and taht no one is skewing the result by executing what group better than the other.

So going by what the devs have said about HL, If I understand correctly, if you used WM+AM your data was not being taken into account, meaning the vast majority of HL players data was left in the air. Is that correct or am I missing something?.

I have a question. When you record this information is it more generalized or do you have a tab of the player who is performing at this rate? Just wondering

No, I think he was saying if you use WM (with the crit, not just dry combos) in addition to the AM, as a hybrid approach, it's counted as the AM. The WM data is only for those using no AM components at all.