So, I'd like to discuss this data...rationally, please

That third column for pure AM would definitely be needed but would be near impossible to achieve without watching players actually dps and see if they are in fact using a hybrid build. From just my experience and seeing other players dps, I don't think I've witness anyone use purely the AM without WM in there somewhere, makes differentiating between hybrid, WM, and AM seem difficult.

All in all this sort of discussion is what we need more of when large decisions affecting the game are made so the gaps can be filled in with the proper information.

So what was your power in compared to the power in of the other dps in your run? Granted I cannot say for certain but I'd venture to guess that if every dps in your group did the same thing as you your overall dps would plummet from having no power to do what you're doing.

So does this graph take players gear, skill points, soder buffs, trinket buffs, skill level of the player, into consideration. Because if it doesn't then its just a piece of paper with lines on it.

So after reading the entire thread I don't believe I have answers to these questions:

A) Are Nature's Awesome Mechanic and Weapon Mastery columns reversed? Seems to be simply based on labeling consistency.

B) When considering a pure Weapon Mastery loadout does that also include damage from non-weapon damage and critical bonus? I think my answer is yes but examples would be, say, Robot Sidekick and Supercharges.

C) If, during a boss fight, a player switches styles mid-fight do they also switch columns? For example in times of group Power issue and I am forced to lose my Poison Spores as Nature I would switch to Terror as it would cost less Power overall to reapply a full stack of the Awesome Mechanics. Later when Power is more available I would switch back to the Awesome Mechanics. This simply ensures I do the most damage I can with the Power I can receive.

From discussions about combo based Awesome Mechanics I think the answer is I would be considered in the Awesome Mechanic column because I at least had my Awesome Mechanic active at least once per boss fight. Clarification would help here.

D) More of a philosophical question about the mechanics in general, should hybrid approaches even exist? I ask this because the DoT Awesome Mechanic technically can never be a hybrid. The critical window window will be disabled for 100% of the 12 second duration.

So far a hybrid approach is mostly contained to combo based Awesome Mechanics wherein a typical rotation would be: Weapon Mastery combo -> Tray combo beginning -> Combo -> Weapon Mastery. They are technically using both at the same time they just can't get the benefit on their strong Precision damage. There is no way to do this at all with Nature or Electricity for example because once you cast a single DoT your critical windows are gone for 12 seconds. You would have to completely switch mechanics which means waiting out the 12 seconds before doing so.

The same is similar to Fire (and soon to be Ice) where you can't benefit from both simply because your cast is too long. Earth and Sorcery are the same as Nature and Sorcery with no way to benefit while their unique pets are active at all. I don't completely understand what restricts critical windows with Gadgets (and soon to be Mental and Quantum) at present so I won't comment about that yet. Not counting Mass Terror in this consideration because as of right now that it is temporary.

Correct me if I am wrong with this thinking but there was talk about adding a hybrid column and even if they did I only think Celestial, Light and Rage would populate it given the information above.

I agree just to many variables here.

Yes and no. While I completely agree that only combo based powers can get the crit buff(though completely pointless for celestial as the might damage portion of our combos is backloaded into our precision portion), you are still a hybrid if you use WM at any point.

A big issue with the numbers the devs were initially comparing is that they were comparing the might crit at the end of WM vs the AM by itself. That said, from numbers we see on live, a very large portion of the extra damage we are achieving in WM is just the WM combo in itself. There are WM combos that can crit for 10-20k by themselves, not even counting getting the might crit buff, which is accounting for a whole lot of damage in the AM column.

My view of the difference between the 3 columns would be this:

AM = Using only your Awesome Mechanics with absolutely no Weapon Mastery combos performed at any point in time. WM Combos do not include any normal combos, even ones with increased passive output merely by being specced into WM.

WM = Using only Weapon Mastery combos with a burst power at the end taking advantage of the Crit Window. At the same time, not taking advantage of any Awesome Mechanic Techniques (Dots, Combos, Pets, Channels, etc).

Hybrid = Using your Awesome Mechanic while also using Weapon Mastery combos either A. While your AM is active (Dots/Pets) or B. Prior to/In Between your AM attacks (Channels/Combos).

This is the graph statistics I would like to see after Tunso manages to separate the data more appropriately. I do believe we will see a significant drop in the AM column, while the current two columns(Hybrid and WM) will remain somewhat the same.

Also to note (which may be the case, we have just not been informed) is that stats should play some role in how the data is measured. The stats/buffed stats of whoever is Top AM and Top WM should be averaged for the span of the fight in which the measurement was made.

Finally, I love how the OP, the Devs, and the community has handled this thread. It has probably been one of the most productive Dev to Community discussions I have seen on the forums in a very long time. Hopefully this will be a reference as to how we should attempt to get further issues worked out as we all learned (us and the Devs) where a very large misunderstanding was.

From the Devs point of view the numbers were spot on(in most cases), yet our own testing showed different. This discussion uncovered a minor mistake in how AM/WM were categorized which may lead to much better deployment and fixes to AMs and WM in the future.

This is partially irrelevant to the flow of the conversation, but this is directed to the developers (devs), about the WM - Am situation on Nature. as if that horse wasn't already beaten to death.

Nature has the poison dot stack and spread strategy (AM)
and the Terror interaction - Buff, strategy (WM).
Both are valuable and situational. so I wont go into detail.

But my concern is the transformations, (yes im bringing them up again)
because this is a thread about Dps and not heals, ill only talk about WOLF and GORRILLA

Wolf: doesn't nearly hit as hard as a normal human would while using a weapon master combo.
it cant use the combos, (wouldn't make sense) so there is no reason to use the few crit bonus powers that nature has while in that form.
don't get me wrong the group bonus effect of "increase crit chance on downed enemies" is use full, but when there is only 1 or 2 bosses in a room, that bonus doesn't help the task at hand.

idea for change: have wolf have group a crit damage counter, that expands with the users combo count. (may need a cap or a ridiculous combo count for high damage). that way if the wolf user chooses to stay in wolf just to get the counter up, have the group effect last for around 1min after the combo breaks or user transforms out.
I would call it Wolf Voracity


Gorilla: now the buffs with Gorilla are fine, but the same problem persist with the lack of WM, and yes human form hits harder than a 10 ton ape.
now I cant imagine much change here, except giving Gorilla a WM attack, it wouldn't be too over powered if you gave it a "risk"
lets say gorilla combos into
Uppercut: HB /Shuriken storm: MA
and just those two, But every time gorilla uses a WM the time that you stay in gorilla is Decreased!
that would keep the pvp world balanced.
Gorilla last almost exactly 1 minute last time I tested, lets say a WM move knocks off 5 seconds.
its just an idea, but the fact is that Transformations, are only as use full as iconic powers in pve.
a change would be nice but not necessary.

BUT I one change I NEEEEEEED for gorilla is better animations, pick up a barrel in gorilla form and see that it takes 3 whole seconds. also it doesn't need to growl when ever it gets knocked down. but that's just a gripe.
any way good game as always.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the transformations were somewhat a piece of the AM(kinda like an AM buff). Again, I may be completely wrong, but if it is the case then it makes sense for it to be excluded from WM completely.

My trust goes to the owners of the stats vice some random dude on the forums.

Numbers are fine and dandy. But this is a game. A GAME!

I don't really care that much about the details. I care about the fun. Challenge is fun, but not mind numbing challenge.

Did we beat the content? Did we get a feeling of accomplishment finishing it? Was it fun?

Are we looking forward to do it again? Is the reward worth doing it again? Does the story keep our interest? Do we feel immersed?

This is what keeps me in the game. This is what keeps the majority of us in the game. Can I escape the real world for an hour or two and be a Super Hero? That's actually the real purpose of this game. And it seems the majority of some 18 million players think so.

Numbers? Crunch away. My interest is how will you keep my attention. How will you keep me immersed? How will you keep the social aspect real? How will you make me feel like I am living up to Superman's claim that I am a true friend?

That's why I play. It's the only reason why I play. And I firmly believe it's why the majority plays.

Just saying......

Erm... You should NEVER realistically see any Nature or Electricity do any realistically useful damage simply with 100% Awesome Mechanics and 0% Weapon Mastery combos. Simply because an equivalent step Weapon Mastery combo does more damage. For example One Handed Focused Blast -> Solar Flare -> Voracious Plants would do more damage compared to Charged Blast -> Solar Flare (no Weapon Mastery boost to the attack) (clipped) -> Voracious Plants. You can do 3 full One Handed Weapon Mastery combos in 12 seconds and 3 full clipped Solar Flares in 12 seconds (technically could do a final Charged Blast). All single hold ranged combos for this example that can be clipped fully is Martial Arts. I won't compare a single weapon attack clip.

Why this is the case is because even if you buff the Might portions you still use that Might portion with Weapon Mastery. Realistically if there is a column with only Awesome Mechanics and 0% points spent in Weapon Mastery at all then they don't have the skill points or don't know about Weapon Mastery.

All of this will apply to Earth, Sorcery and Fire as well. Earth and Sorcery should be self explanatory. If Fire were truly only able to use Awesome Mechanics than the feedback for Fire would be much more varied than it is and even if so Fire still wouldn't be able to use a hybrid approach as useful as Celestial, Light and Rage.

Even if this were a column how do you increase pure Awesome Mechanics for the powersets in question without also increasing your hybrid group? Unless of course you disable Weapon Mastery combo damage which would be a complete rework of the restrictions, get rid of your hybrid approach and give a pure Precision based Weapon Mastery build be 100% better all round simply because as I mentioned short step Weapon Mastery combos do more damage than short step clips. Even with your hybrid approach the only group worth comparing would be Awesome Mechanic + Weapon Mastery as the pure Awesome Mechanic would be largely formed of players that simply can't use Weapon Mastery for whatever reason (which I would say is not an intended scenario in tier 6).


I should also clarify that none of my feedback takes the current version of Max Damage. This will of course skew the results of my feedback. However I don't want to make it based on Max Damage simply because the feedback for Max Damage is so that it may change some of the fundamentals of the conclusions made. Will revise after Max Damage is final and live.

No they do not. Nature's Awesome Mechanic has been stated to be Poison Spores + Swarm as per Spyte's and Tunso's posts in related topics.

Primal Wolf and Gorilla simply don't have Weapon Mastery combos to get the critical from. Theoretically speaking they should get the critical if they had the appropriate combos.

Lets face it,no power can physically beat a dps using both WM and AM compared to a dps only using WM or vice-versa.That being said,lets drop that subject in that regard.However,many powers are considered underpowered but in reality its just that your not using them right.Theres only 2 powers that ACTUALLY need a buff.Which is Celestial and HL.I'm electric so I can support the fact i'm not being biased.Sorry if any way this is off topic.

First off, I clearly stated that I do not count it as a WM if you perform a normal weapon combo that has increased passive damage by being specced into WM. So, your statement of not having enough SP or not being specced into WM plays no part in this discussion.

Second, when WM was released we were informed that it was completely optional and that you could perform at an equal level using our AMs without the need for WM. Therefore, celestial should be able to use pure combos and never even touch a weapon and at least equal the damage potential of WM + Burst. The same should apply to all powers, including nature and electricity. Nature should be able to use its poison dots, spread them, and whatever other powers are available to them such as VP, with maybe a normal weapon combo(even if buffed by speccing into WM) and equal the damage of someone using WM+ burst only.

This is what this entire discussion is about currently. On the chart we were given, the AM column is not AM, it is Hybrid and that is the only reason it is so close in comparison to the WM column. I do completely agree, and it has been mentioned by myself, Spytle, and others on this thread, that if we were to increase the output of pure AMs to equal that of pure WM+Burst, then the hybrid column would increase.

The best way I can think of to balance AM and WM+burst without giving the hybrid builds an extra boost would be this:

Buff All AMs(pure AM)
Nerf Prec Damage produced by a WM Combo
Buff the Might Crit Burst Damage that follows a WM Combo

This would level the playing field for all three aspects (AM, WM, Hybrid) as the AM would do enough damage to equal WM+burst, and hybrid would not gain much more damage using WM vs normal weapon combos and therefore it would be a choice rather than a requirement.

The only problem at this stage would be how to know when to cancel a might crit bonus for combo'd powers to prevent that type of hybrid from still existing. The only method I can think of is that if you achieve a WM crit bonus, and then follow into a combo, it would reduce the combo prec damage by the amount that the might damage was buffed therefore nullifying the buff.

Thank you. I must have been misinformed, please continue with your point of conversation as intended.

So it's inaccurate and skewed data in order to help the devs prove a point? It's WM vs WM + AM?

Is it really so hard for them to just admit they were wrong with WM and listen to feedback?

Some revisions need to be made. You can't truly call it a AM load out if you can use WM. This literally makes it impossible for Fire and soon to be Ice to catch up in damage because we can't have best of both worlds. If you intend to say AM is AM+WM then Fire and Ice will need a buff to match that. The compromise across powers are not even at all.

Excuse the noobish question, but what is the difference between AM & WM? I'll take a wild guess and say that AM is probably using the combos instead of just the WM combo, for example for 1H you do - tap x4 - hold?

I'm not a veteran player, I've been playing this game for 2 years and still have a ton to learn. So please excuse any questions that I have incoming for this topic.

My next question is that...wouldn't this like, need to be determined the players skill? Can't someone still use...whatever AM is and still be good at being a dps, I'm not talking about the damage out, I don't even know how to ask this, hopefully you guys understand this, but yeah, regardless of them using AM ( seriously, what is AM and why is it called AM? ) or WM, isn't this more based off of skill?

Edit - I know this is probably way too early to ask, but what is the scoreboard going to show for when it gets revamped? I'm asking this because I am really excited for this because damage out isn't enough to prove whether or not he/she is a good dps, heck, even if that person is second place on scoreboard doesn't make them a bad dps at all, that person can still have a lot to learn and will get better overtime. So yeah, again, sorry for if it is too early to ask, just curious and beyond excited and hoping, fingers crossed that people in general would ignore that part of the scoreboard.

Yes it is inaccurate, no the devs did not do it to prove a point. It was a mistake, Spytle admitted that first, he did not know how each category was determined, and second that when he asked Tunso how they were determined, he requested that he add a category using pure AM instead of the Hybrid.

This has been a VERY VERY direct communication between the community and the devs, and in no way have the devs attempted to deceive anyone in this. There is no need to bring hostility into this thread, and yes they admitted they were wrong about what data they were using to measure the difference between AM and WM.

AM = Awesome Mechanic, WM = Weapon Mastery.

An awesome mechanic is something like Celestial using Celestial power combos, HL using HL combos, Rage using their combos, Nature using the poison spore DoT, Elec using its DoT, Earth or Sorcery using their pets, or Fire using its channeling. There are other small things that signify an AM is being used, but generally an AM is a power doing damage purely via the power itself(relying on no WM combos whatsoever, and very minimal to no weapon attacks at all).

Yes this can all be determined by a players skill to an extent, but currently it is a broken system. On live currently, the damage that an AM can produce at maximum skill level will not reach the damage that WM+Burst can produce. The way a lot of people have dodged this issue is by performing a hybrid build in which they perform WM combos as well as using their AM(like having fury up as sorcery and still throwing out WM combos while the fury is up).

What has resulted in sub-par AM has now been discovered as to how the Devs were classifying data(not intentionally, merely a small mistake). Essentially, if you use your AM at any point in time during a T6 boss fight, you would have been classified under the AM statistic, even if the majority(or at least a good portion) of your damage was coming from WM prec hits. The WM statistic on the other hand is only using pure WM+Burst damage, and therefore represented a much more accurate count for damage out.

Us as the player base(some, I cannot speak for all) figured that pure AM(meaning never using a WM combo whatsoever) should be able to equal out to using pure WM +Burst, as was announced when WM was introduced. Many of us do not wish to use WM in our rotations as we liked the way our powers worked initially, and some of us do not even have the option of using WM+Burst(celestial particularly).

Hopefully though, after this great feedback and return from the devs, we can get much more accurate results in the comparison of pure AM vs pure WM+burst vs WM+AM Hybrid. The new data will also help the devs and community come to a resolution on where each needs tweaking in order to perform at as close to an even playing field as possible.

My views are:

Buff AM
Nerf WM Prec Damage
Buff might burst crit damage

This will result in AMs being on par with WM+Burst, and hybrid builds not taking extra advantage of the massive prec damage that WM combos can perform.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain

I need to hop back in game while ya'll are logging I KNOW my Leeroy Jenkins combo button would definitely top that seeing as how in my current 103 gear I can do roughly 700k burst in 5 seconds if I get a crit