Snyderverse-an unpopular opinion

Discussion in 'Joker’s Funhouse (Off Topic)' started by Quantum Edge, Jan 12, 2022 at 7:46 AM.

  1. Quantum Edge Devoted Player

    I've seen the Whedon version, I've seen the 4 hour snyderverse version, and the black and white snyderverse indulgence.

    First, is Snyder's version a more coherent story than Whedon's? Yes. Is the conclusion to Snyder's version more satisfying? Yes. Is the character development better in Snyder's version? Yes.

    Now, having said all of those things, Snyder had 4 hours to tell his story. Realistically, a four hour comic book movie is never going to see a wide release. So 1 & 3 can be chalked up to having a larger canvas to work on.

    And here's my big beef, Snyder really isn't that good a film maker, he's got a great visual style, but I have a hard time thinking about any movies he's made that are very good. My go-to description of Watchmen is that he made a fantastic version of Dave Gibbon's book, but an awful version of Alan Moore's. 300, while again a visually arresting movie, was a narrative mess. The less said about Sucker Punch the better.

    It's funny, I had a similar beef about Oliver Stone years ago. Every film of his I watched, I thought to myself, if this were his first film, he's going to be fantastic, but he never evolved. I have the same feeling about Snyder, he's got a fantastic eye for what makes a good movie, but he can't punch his way out of a narrative grocery bag. Let's be unfair, and compare him to Steven Spielberg. If you go back to the beginning of Spielberg's career to films like Close Encounters, Jaws, and Raiders, there's a visual style there that grabs you. The stories are a bit weak, but the base is there. Move forward 15-20 years, Spielberg is now making Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List, both of which have an arresting visual style, but his story telling has improved dramatically.

    300 came out in 2006 and his version of Justice League came out 15 years later. His story telling hasn't improved all that much since then.

    Now that I've made everyone mad, I'm going to have a coffee
    • Like x 1
  2. Controller Loyal Player

    You haven't made everyone mad, lol - at least not ME.

    You've already brought me GREAT JOY by even STARTING this thread on my man Zach Snyder - (whom I believe is AWESOME, btw)............

    [IMG]

    Now as for your comment? I believe - from what I've discussed HERE in the forums with a few posters and read - that there are some LAYERS to this whole "SynderVerse" thing...

    From "MY" Point of View Zach may have ALREADY been hamstrung from the START of his DC movie run...

    Does ANYONE here know the PARAMETERS he was placed under in regards to what he COULD do? As far as MOVIES? What I mean by this is -

    In comparison to MARVEL's magnificent movie run - we started with Captain America - the First Avenger. Then, I believe - we had the first Thor movie THEN the first Iron Man movie...

    EACH movie had "Certain Elements" in them that DID in fact connect them together - even though I know that each movie is supposed to be able to be viewed as standalone.

    We know this wasn't the actual case - in regards to the standalone. This is why Tony Stark appeared at the end of the 2nd Hulk movie (his Abomination movie). And Nick Fury appeared at the end of the first Captain America movie...

    My point is THIS - Did the WB Big Wigs EVER give Zach Snyder and Co. THAT MUCH leeway? To construct an actual COHERENTLY-Tied storyline? I'd guess not...

    If Zach and Co. were given ONLY THREE MOVIES (MoS, BvS and JL) to bring the ENTIRE DC Universe to the Big Screen then that was a FAIL from the start - and shows some overreach from them (Big Wigs) unfortunately.

    We COULD argue the merits of "Well, if MoS was POPULAR enough then Zach would've gotten more movies"..........I don't believe it was as simple as that, TBH..............

    Didn't at ONE TIME - several years ago - there was a schedule to release a CYBORG movie....as well as a Green Lantern movie? I know that Aquaman made the movie cut as well as WW but why no Victor Stone? There is CERTAINLY enough material out there for him to have HIS OWN movie.....thus Zach was left to actually BUILD Cyborg's persona in the Zach Snyder cut.

    As for GL movie it is NOW supposed to be an HBO MAX series, if I recall. Quite the departure from what I believe was going to be an actual MOVIE......

    Will this supposed "GL Series on HBO MAX" - tie into to any coherent storyline? Like Marvel's?

    What in THE WORLD happened to the rumored New Gods movie? I thought Ava Duvernay was going to do well here but this movie was cancelled - supposedly - because there was an uproar about "Wokeness"............

    [IMG]

    Someone PLEASE show me a Character of Color in that group....I am CERTAIN that Mr. Jack Kirby was no racist but we CANNOT blame Ms. Durvernay for ANY attempts at bringing DIVERSITY to ANY New Gods movie - as long as it was tasteful and thought out...like Heimdall was in Marvel's Thor movies.

    I'd hope that she would've left Orion as a hot-tempered red head, though.

    Flash is getting his OWN movie, finally....albeit a bit late compared to how well-structured the Marvel chain of movies / storyline.

    Batman is going through an Identity Crisis, lol - with Rob Pattinson now donning the cape. Now is THIS movie going to be a part of the GREATER DC Cinematic Universe of just another Joker-Style standalone movie?

    And IF Rob Pattinson's Batman movie IS good - which I hope it IS - then why make ANOTHER DC movie that isn't tied into a GREATER threat like Darkseid - like Zach Snyder's Justice League movie is?

    What happens to Ben Affleck Batman - whom I do love?

    Let's be real - Marvel was AWESOME in it's buildup to Thanos......DC Cinematic Universe? All we're doing is making standalone movies like BoP....Joker....turning Superman into Black Superman (see my heartened discussions / thoughts on THAT idea in my Icon and Rocket thread here in the Joker's funhouse).........................

    I'd rather they KEEP Henry Cavill and introduce Icon as Michael B Jordan.

    Does DC have an "Endgame" if you will? A Darkseid in the mix? We don't know. This is SAD in itself.

    We should ALREADY be on the way to Perpetua, Anti-Monitor....World Forger....on DC / WB's Big Screen.

    Marvel knocked Thanos out of the park and is already on the way to it's next big thing.

    We can't blame the "LACK" on Zach Snyder alone. I believe he's tried / trying - to fight The Good Fight.

    Detective Comics has AS RICH a backstory as Marvel's if not MORE richer. Darkseid is FAR MORE CUNNING than Thanos. But yet we can't even answer whether or not we're going to see him again after Zach Snyder's JL movie.

    This is sad, to me at least.

    Zach Snyder tried and he's getting thrown under the proverbial bus, sadly - for some of DC movie's failures.

    While I'm on DC, lol..........why don't we have a Fortress of Solitude - based Theme Park? A Themyscira-based Theme Park? Doesn't Disney / Marvel - have Marvel-based items like this, IIRC?

    DC is SO RICH in it's characters.....SO RICH......it's like a gold mine that they are unsure of how to mine it.

    Cannot blame this on Zach Snyder, alone.
  3. NIckNock Well-Known Player

    Gordon feels vulnerable and spills the beans at the half way mark about his fear of critics at his restaurants and begins to sob about this review of Spyder verse.

  4. Controller Loyal Player

    Ideally - WB / DC would've created an "Endgame" storyline - with at LEAST TWO Henry Cavill Superman movies - each with a plot built upon a storyline.

    What was in MoS was a LOT to unpack....not particularly Zach's fault but he did a good job trying. Was this the PLAN that WB Cinema gave to Zach? Shame on them for constraining Zach like this for such an iconic character.

    Captain America got THREE movies - First Avenger, Winter Soldier AND Civil War.....each one BUILDING upon the other...each one introducing characters that would ULTIMATELY be featured in the WHOLE of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

    Wonder Woman's FIRST movie was AWESOME....the second one had a good meaning to it at the end but really did not help to BUILD upon any "greater" threat or any "Endgame"...

    About the ONLY thing the first WW movie carried over to the next one was her love for Steve Trevor.

    I do hope Cheetah is featured as a villain...I love the actor and the character and she could be a power house on a villain team.

    Such a shame that Ben Affleck's Batman did not get a separate movie...instead he was constrained to BvS, where not ONLY Superman was featured but they ALSO had to mix in Wonder Woman. It was a valiant attempt but again did very little for character building.

    I wish Zach Snyder would've gotten TWO Justice League movies.....WB / DC could've introduced a TON of characters in such a scenario....Vixen, Cyborg, Green Lantern....they could've introduced at least TWO GLs and perhaps hinted at several more - and then segued into a GL movie.......

    Cyborg? Such a powerful and diverse character backstory...his "planned" movie (that got cancelled) could've perhaps hinted Doom Patrol...maybe hinted Titans.....

    It really hurts to see such rich DC characters NOT competing with Marvel's Cinematic storyline. Certainly not Zach Snyder's fault.

    WB / DC has did a "decent" job with singular movies (BoP, Joker, SS2, Aquaman, Shazam, etc) but nothing seemingly building upon the other.

    And I've already beaten my Dead Horse about my Milestone Media (DC) characters.

    [IMG]

    IMO if WB / DC doesn't desire to COMPETE with Disney / Marvel Cinematic Universe then that is sad. The characters for DC ARE there and they are perhaps more interesting than Marvels.
  5. Controller Loyal Player

    How would ICON deal with Brainiac? Lex Luthor?

    Think OUTSIDE THE BOX, WB / DC.
  6. willflynne 10000 Post Club


    Iron Man first. Hulk (Edward Norton film) I believe was next. Iron Man 2 after that, which fed into Thor directly and Captain America The First Avenger indirectly. Black Widow appeared in Iron Man 2 and Hawkeye in Thor, which seeded their inclusion in Avengers.

    And Snyder is not totally at fault, but he has his fair share of the blame. He made the films and was given the keys to the kingdom.
  7. Controller Loyal Player

    I'm not believing that Zach was given the keys to the kingdom. I don't believe you do, either - without some behind the scenes proof. which I doubt we'll ever be privy to.

    Is there any proof as to what parameters he was given to work with? As compared to the magnificent Marvel run of movies?
  8. Controller Loyal Player

    Another point of contention for me is the showing of Zach Snyder's Justice League on TV...

    I understand that the movie is 4 hrs and 2 min long - is this supposedly "Too Long" for national TV networks like TnT or TBS?

    If this is the case then why does Infinity War (2hr 29 min) and Endgame (3 hrs 2 min) get a pass?

    Oftentimes when End Game is shown they get a flat 4 hour block reserved for it - due to commercials and such.

    No one bats an eye to this, either - I know "I" don't.

    Quality movies (like Zach Snyder's Justice League) should get the same playing field.
  9. Quantum Edge Devoted Player

    We've veered into a different subject, the business of film making. I would agree Snyder was treated very badly, especially after the tragedy of what happened to his daughter. After Man Of Steel, I do think he was given free reign with Batman vs Superman, and unfortunately that film didn't do great at the box office, and nothing makes suits freak out more than a less than projected dividend. So he went from closely managed, to have at 'er, to starting with free reign to losing control, and then abdicating completely. That's got to be a frustrating way to work. Bringing this back to Marvel, I've heard they have fairly strict guidelines on what directors can do. They probably give let them do what they want within those parameters, but would also explain why a bunch of directors have started working on films, and then been dumped, like Edgar Wright, Scott Derrickson, Patty Jenkins, Ava Duvernay and probably others I can't remember. Marvel is also VERY good at the PR game after movies come out, with everyone saying, oh we're all a big family, and nooooooo Marvel didn't interfere at all. I think the big difference is, Marvel lays out the rules before hand, where with WB and Snyder, the rules changed with every movie, and in one case the rules changed making one movie.
    • Like x 1
  10. Controller Loyal Player

    QE - It wasn't my intention to steer the thread off-course but I realize that with the way I had to answer your initial post my response - to ME - would have me delve into what I thought was the bigger issue with Zach Snyder and WB / DC.

    My bad and it wasn't my intention.

    At the end of the day, I just believe that there are greater machinations going on behind the scenes and Zach Snyder - unfortunately - is being made the scapegoat.

    Whatever restrictions Marvel had - it worked - to grand fashion. I'm a DC boy at heart but Marvel knocked it out the park plain and simple.

    Comic books fans of all ages will look back at this 20-30 years from now and Marvel movies WILL stand the test of time.

    DC hasn't measured up yet and that is sad, to me.

    Individual movies? Sure. But compared to Marvel's movie storyline it hasn't added up yet.

    Either you're first or you're last.
  11. Quantum Edge Devoted Player


    I hope I didn't come across as irked, all debates are organic and go the way they're meant to.

    having said that, my original post was looking at Snyder as a narrative storyteller. Visually, he's amazing, my beef is his story telling style. He's not great with female characters, he's pretty good with Alpha Males, Michael Shannon's Zod was much more intimidating than Terence Stamp, but it took him twice as long to tell the same story as Whedon. Is it better than Whedon's movie? Yes, absolutely, like the old chestnut says though, brevity is the soul of wit. Movies in particular, every single scene has to be important. You have a limited number of minutes to tell your story, so the eyeballs on the screen need to see the story moving forward. And that's where I think Snyder fails. He puts a lot of stuff that, sure is cool to see, but doesn't move the narrative. There's a good reason Chekhov's gun is such an important rule, if I'm seeing something on screen, there sure as hell needs to be a reason I'm seeing it.
    • Like x 1
  12. Quantum Edge Devoted Player

    Another controversial opinion I have, because of Marvel's success, scrap the idea of a shared universe, get great writers and directors, and let them tell the stories they want to. They seem to be moving that way with flashpoint.
  13. Controller Loyal Player

    The issue I have with this suggestion is that to ME it would give the impression of "Giving up"......

    Just because one side presents an AWESOME project doesn't mean that the other side just throws in the towel.

    Comic History will look back at this 10, 20 or 30 years from now and wonder - "What the heck was WB / DC Cinematic Universe doing?"

    Darkseid is Darkseid. Thanos is Thanos. So far, Thanos' story was told and in GRAND fashion.

    There is no reason, to me at least - to not generate or introduce a storyline spanning a similar amount of movies as Marvel and leave DC fans spellbound - just like Marvel did.

    Failure is one thing. But to not even TRY is unacceptable.

    To throw Zach Snyder under the bus and quit? Unfathomable. Zach tried and that's why he has a sizeable fan base.

    For Will - I apologize if I appeared snippy to you but I just believe there is a LOT more going on behind the scenes with this stuff but the EASY fix is to offer up Zach as a sacrificial lamb.

    Folks complain about his movie structure? The darkness behind it? Well - DC is / has been - Dark. It is different from Marvel and that is by design.

    Look no further than the clip I've posted on here many times where Darkseid vaporized Dan Turpin - just to terrorize Earth and make an example of him. THAT was from the Superman TAS for crying out loud, lol - a cartoon. A cartoon that is 30 or 40 years old.

    I will go see Black Adam...the new Batman movie and the Flash one. But with EACH of these I will definitely be looking for a glimmer of hope of "Something Bigger" coming down the road.

    For ME - Marvel set the bar. To not even compete is weakness.
  14. Quantum Edge Devoted Player


    This begs the question, are comic books and movies an artistic endeavour, or are they solely businesses, or a mixture of both? I guess I'm coming at this from the perspective that films are an art form, that may be my naivete coming through.
    • Like x 1
  15. Quantum Edge Devoted Player

    I'm veering off on a tangent. We're touching on a problem with cinema today. The only movies seeing wide distribution are the big blockbusters. When Steven Spielberg wanted to make Lincoln, he wasn't able to get any funding for it from the usual sources. STEVEN SPIELBERG couldn't get money to make a character driven movie about arguably one of the most powerful American historical icons. He had to go to individual investors to fund it's filming.

    When a director who is arguably one of the most successful film makers in movie history can't get money to make a character driven movie, there's something seriously wrong.
    • Like x 1
  16. Controller Loyal Player

    Another great question.

    I would personally ask this question to Kevin Feige, President of Marvel Studios.

    I would say that Comic Book movies are a VERY DELICATE balance of BOTH.....an artistic endeavour AND a business that IS out to make MONEY......

    Mr. Feige and his team have threaded the proverbial needle PERFECTLY in this regard - and left a LEGION of PLEASED fans across the board and I'm certain have gained NEW ones - young AND old.

    IMHO WB / DC is leaning MORESO towards BUSINESS...with only a SMALL amount of caring and dedicated folks at the top TRYING to steer the ship but are being hamstrung by "Other Forces"..................

    I am certain that a WB Big Wig would tell me - "Well, The Joker movie made over a BILLION......"

    They'd say - "Well, Birds of Prey was a hit!.......and made us MONEY"......

    "Even BETTER - BoP reached it's TARGET AUDIENCE which I'd guess were younger females and a younger audience in general"............

    "Our second time around with Suicide Squad was BETTER....and made us MORE MONEY"..........



    Queue the message in this classic O'Jays song.....

    You've gotta have BALANCE....and a KEEN EAR to what fans want....you CAN make money and build a lasting legacy.

    Now look at DC's Fan Base....you have MYSELF - an admitted Synderverse petitioner......and a whole SUBSECTION of Snyderverse fans that border on lunacy LOL........a few of us, anyway.

    I mean - some DC fans bringing up Snyderverse with Zachari Levi a few years ago was a bit of a reach and embarrassing - but can be argued that it produced FRUIT...

    It left Mr. Levy rather frustrated and embarrassed because he had no answers for those fans and understandably so.

    This is what happens when - as an industry - you miss the mark and get led astray. You create DIVISIONS among fans...offer up sacrificial lambs (Zach Snyder)....and dig in DEEPER and try to make MORE MONEY off of DC Movies rather than trying to take some tips from Marvel's model.

    There was a video of Marvel's Next Phase here in the Joker's Funhouse that I think Willflynne posted earlier this year. If you can, find that thread and video and just take about 30 min if you have the time and review the comments and UTTER EXCITEMENT among the fans in regards to what's next to come from Marvel Movies.....

    You don't find ANY FAN DIVISIONS in those comments....it was like a party atmosphere among those several thousand comments.......

    You can't find such excitement on OUR SIDE....but hey - take it from my man Cypher:

    [IMG]

    At the end of the day I just want DC Comic movies to have as good a LEGACY as Marvel movies. I don't believe that's the goal at the moment.

    I want WB/ DC to dust off the Milestone Media (DC) characters...that is a goldmine of originality right there.

    I want them to create a STORY....not a bunch of non-related solo movies....sorta like Marvel. Center it around Darkseid

    [IMG]

    It's not too late....NEVER too late.
    • Like x 1
  17. Controller Loyal Player

    The interesting thing with this comment is that I saw a rumor somewhere that Mr. Spielberg is working on a Black Hawks movie for DC. If this is true I'm sure it will be good.





    "Where'd you learn that move? U.S. Marine Corps" - John Stewart, lol.....................

    I'd love for such a movie to be tied into the greater DC Cinematic Universe somehow but for a movie like this I'd give it a pass.

    Hollywood is - interesting. It can be argued that there are some political leanings with Hollywood but I'm certain that Big Wigs there would argue vociferously against such a comment.

    For a man like Spielberg - you give him a seat at the table, give him a blank check and ask him "Sir what do you need from us?"

    I mentioned him before in bringing my man Augustus Freeman IV / Icon to the big screen

    [IMG]

    Don't forget Rocket, too.
  18. Controller Loyal Player

    I also don't agree with the narrative of "Zach Snyder not knowing how to tell a story...build a character."



    Here you have a God among Humans seeking answers and direction from the Man of God in this Pastor....

    You can't get any more HUMANIZING than this scene.

    SPOT ON, Zach.

    SPOT.

    ON.

    Kevin Costner is SUCH an underrated actor...he AND Ms. Lane. He and Dianne Lane were GREAT Earth parents....modern parents for modern times.
  19. Quantum Edge Devoted Player

    Speaking of Whedon, it looks like he decided to put the final nail in the old career coffin yesterday.
  20. Emoney Dedicated Player

    I'd say the length of the movie is irrelevant in todays market. As weve seen with endgame, the rules with 2 hour run times can be stretched if the demand is there. Add to it, the abundant sources of streaming that are on average around 10, 1 hour segments. To the latter, would I say Wandavision, or Falcon and Winter Soldier are better than Snyders cut, naw, not even close.

    To the evolution of Snyder, I agree he hasnt mastered his story telling, but, I think it has improved, just comparing the movies the OP mentioned. I appreciate his vision for the DC movies, making artistic changes but within the range of comic canon. Those changes, so far, havent been for social movement reasons either, something I can't say for Marvel, or even the DC shows on the CW.

    Overall, I wish WB and DC would have put the project on hold back then, and let him finish it. Chances are, we would have gotten a slightly better movie, no other version to compare it to, and better chances for the trilogy to be made.
    • Like x 1