Sm and elite content improvements to keep people going.

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by iMeMoriezZ, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. Entrust Committed Player

    That particular scenario was in responce to Hollow Gohan saying, "You can get any green and blue gear and be up and beyond last DLC's cr/stats within the first two days if you enter the new DLC with zero vendor gear from last DLC."

    It was his assertion that a player with zero vendor gear could be above max deluge CR (240) in 2 days of gameplay.
    • Like x 1
  2. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    Oh right well yea not without replaying agreed
    • Like x 1
  3. Entrust Committed Player

    I do understand some people's frustration with the current progression system.

    "What was the point of getting to max CR if the only challenging thing left for me to run is the Elite raids I spend days/weeks/months running?"

    Max CR doesn't open access to exclusive content. It's not even necessary to access the next DLC once it drops.

    Thankfully it doesn't allow players to beat all of the next DLC's elite raids on day one, without new gear. (Although there those who would have us believe they can; there are many who have tried, yet no videos to prove it, that i am aware of.)

    At best, reaching max CR reduces the amount of time/runs/new-gear needed in order for groups to successfully complete a new DLC's Elite content.

    Should there be something in-game to resolve that frustration?
    It couldn't hurt. Do I think a solution that is equitable to all players has been presented in this thread? Unfortunatly probably not.
  4. Hollow Gohan Well-Known Player

    It isn't my fault you seemed to forgot the amount of gear that drops on that first Wednesday and Thursday when a DLC drops. 2 duos (4 drops), 2 alerts (4 drops), weekly loot drops x2 (Idk how many), weekly raid drops x2 (10 in total) and you are going to be pretty close to 240 off rip. That is 18+ drops by the way, not 8.

    However, if you want to focus so directly on my assertion that it takes only 2 days to get to 240, how about I expand it to a whole week. You don't think people would be at 240 or beyond within a week of playing the new DLC if they go in at 232 CR? Go ahead and refute what was obviously hyperbole, but the point is still the same: there is no legitimate incentive to get to max CR if the content does not require it. You have made a very meager one up when you say, "Reaching max CR reduces the amount of time/runs/new-gear needed in order for groups to successfully complete a new DLC's Elite content." The amount of time it reduces is not remotely worth the amount of time people put in to get to max CR. Like I said, it should take around 2 days to get to max CR, however I can expand it to 1 whole week for you. The result is still the same: 2 months+ of grinding out gear to get to max CR for next DLC, or 2-4 extra days of running content when next DLC drops to get to the same exact position. Add a few replays to the mix, and this isn't even worth discussing. That isn't a real incentive, and it isn't a very good answer to the question, "What are we gearing up for?"

    "If players find the gear-grind meaningless then why are they doing it?" This is a generalization. Some players play the game for different reasons. I am personally gearing up because I like completing all of the episode/styles feats. That is my only incentive, and it isn't a very good one considering how little skill points matter in this game. Other players play more casually and can tolerate the end-game grind. Maybe they haven't beaten Machine Elite yet and do actually need to get to max CR? Then there is still that third group who this entire thread is acknowledging, and that is the group that has nothing left to strive for until next DLC. Not because they're geared up to max after spamming too many replays, but because the raids do not require max CR for them to complete them. This lack of passion for the game from this group of players is important for the devs to acknowledge just like every other group of players who play the game for various reasons. It is up to them to evaluate it as a minor problem for a few elitists, or something that they should actually consider. At the very least, I'd hope they'd look at the progression system.
    • Like x 3
  5. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    What are your ideas in terms of the ideal progression system?
  6. Hollow Gohan Well-Known Player

    I don't have an ideal progression system in mind. This is the only MMO I've played. However, I do know progressing through the very raids that you are gearing up to beat is irrational, at least from my perspective. You should have to climb the ladder to get to the top. You shouldn't have to start at the top to obtain the best gear available. What then is left afterwards? Duos, alerts, and even one of the two raids should be used as stepping stones to get to the final raid or designated piece of content for that Episode. I miss the Elite Alerts, I don't really know what happened with them, but even those could be used to supplement individuals who want to attempt the top tier raid while providing a fun challenge themselves.

    If I remember correctly, renown was introduced because the random loot drops for Elite pieces were regarded as an inferior system. However, I feel renown itself was not the correct fix, at least not if it negatively impacts the difficulty of the Elite raids. At one point we had what was regarded as the inferior Elite raid (Oly, Pan, TTB) leading to renown farming, but now we have two more challenging raids, yet they still need to be beatable enough for people to farm renown. I don't know if removing the Elite raids themselves is the best direction, although that could be argued. However, I don't believe renown is the best method of obtaining best gear. If it is, there should be only one raid, at the level that Hive and Machine are currently, not like how Pan or TTB used to be, followed by another raid that is further up the ladder that does not drop renown, but instead rewards players with a feat or a title.

    Another thing I've often thought of is why we need to have separate sets of gears, though I haven't delved too deeply into that.
    • Like x 3
  7. Yes We Can Active Player

    dying is all part of the fun. whats the point if you go in and do it perfectionately? there isn't any. Failing is part of human nature and that's how we learn and in fake realities like video games makes it fun as we try try and try again till we get it right. other than that, if you cant understand this concept than im at a loss to explain it any better.
    • Like x 3
  8. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    Yea I agree with most of what you've said.

    I think we should move more back towards a proper progression system not a system that just replaces everything every 3-5 months
    • Like x 2
  9. Yvtq8K3n Committed Player

    In my opinion sm, should come back, lets be real sm is just rehashed content, fix the combat system in one, apply to others.
    Mepps mention before that they wanted first to get elite content rigth, which they did. I hope now they have the tools, knowledge and will to bring the SM So now we throw the shark and wait. #bringSMBack
  10. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    It could be, but honestly at this point I don't know how many total progression revamps the game and its players can take.

    Your solution of 1 or 2 uber-hard pieces of content meant to be a challenge all year long is a great idea but I doubt it's viable for the game.

    It means investing resources on 1 or 2 raids for the long term, while leaving 1 DLC with minimum content (1 alert, 1 duo, maybe 1 raid if only 1 is super hard) and I doubt that's enough to satisfy the majority of the player base.

    It's a great idea for the 1-3% with huge leagues who complete Elite in a breeze, and I like the idea, don't get me wrong. It's just that less content for the masses could be trouble. It all depends on who's paying the bills honestly.

    Another thing is that I hesitate to believe that this 1 or 2 raids would actual satisfy some of the people in this thread. Again, not knocking their suggestions, because they have a very valid viewpoint, just saying that as soon as the best of the best triumphed over those raids as well, using optimal group loadouts with specific powersets only, etc., wouldn't they be right back to where we are now?

    How many people actually played SM more than one time once they got the style rewards they wanted? 10? 20? 50?

    Would that be an alternative option to keep Elite interesting? Cosmetic items and exclusive, rare base items? Or is it only the sense of superiority from beating raids that only 50 people can beat - you know there would be glitchers, lol, but actual players too - and then bragging about it?

    Asking honestly to see where people stand on this stuff.
    • Like x 1
  11. dresserball Dedicated Player

    If you don't want people steam rolling things so quickly then get paid testers so people don't understand the mechanics of the DLC content before it drops. It might only slow it down a bit, but you would also have more robust content that aligns with what the developers intended.
  12. ThePhilosophy Loyal Player

    People that are actually good at the game are being pushed to the side to appease the.....well you know... I wont go on a rant
  13. ThePhilosophy Loyal Player

    So true. They'd be right back here asking whats next, again
    • Like x 1
  14. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    it would all come down to adequate timing of the releases, as long as the 2 main raids are hard enough you could even release a couple of easier raids in a subsequent DLC to maintain interest as long as they didn't undermine the most difficult ones.
  15. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    Possibly, but at least with a more robust progression model if they came back prematurely because they've spammed replay badges there would be the much stronger defensible argument that they're the authors of their own frustration.
    • Like x 2
  16. Hollow Gohan Well-Known Player

    1 to 2 raids for the long term in a game that has become so casual oriented is not going to work. They would never be hard enough. It's a balancing game. With this DLC, the devs made a huge improvement. It's still casual friendly, but also allowed people to have a good, fun challenge. The problem is, that fun only lasted 3 weeks. Partly due to some people replay spamming and burning themselves out, but also in large part due to people only needing to gear up a slight amount to complete the raids. The raids were difficult, but the difficulty (outside of Terra and obviously Donna Troy's lasso) in my opinion was mainly due to the mechanics. Once groups got a good feel for those, the raids became doable. Problem is, that meant they were doable at the low 240's range. There has to be something people need to gear to max for, and the reason people always mention SM is because that is exactly what those individuals think of when they wonder what exactly they would like to gear up for. That is what they used to gear up for.

    They probably just don't have the resources for it. Ideally, I would like to see SM come out along with the same amount of episodes we have now. However, if it were to be a thing and that resulted in significantly less content throughout the year, then it probably wouldn't be a good idea. In that case, I wouldn't mind having 1 less Elite raid every episode. A majority of the player-base sticks to one anyways, as they aren't incentivized to run the other.

    The 1 to 2 raids in one year idea would shake the casual player-base a lot more, and I doubt they would satisfy everyone anyway. That is where I stand on it.
    • Like x 1
  17. lordexecution365 Dedicated Player

    Umph, I hate to say this because it always come down to the main problem with the way the progression works for this game.

    So here I go, SM could definitely be what people gear up for, but the community loves a reward beyond styles and more than feats.

    Why do everybody always discount what Mepps and other dev's say so much as if they are making things up.

    If it weren't for gaining renown to buy elite gear, this community would not run elite content.

    Sure a handful of players would run it, there is always exceptions to every rule.

    But in the eyes of those who only look to up their CR and constantly seek what they determine to be a meaningful reward for the amount of difficulty styles and non-progressive loot drops just don't work.

    I am all for just the pleasure of completing something so challenging but I can pretty much guarantee that said content would have a super low amount of players interested and these very pages would have page after page calling for nerfs and an improvement of loot drops that can help with both forming a group to get passed the first boss and making it worth while to run it.

    They gave two reasons why SM was discontinued, limited amount of players that ran it and the lack of time to create base items to offer a reward.

    Remove gear being the primary focus of progression and lose a huge chunk of the base because they would have to focus on an aspect that many find hard to work on which would be feats unless there is another system of progression.

    Feats is easy and already in place another method may be to costly and time consuming.
  18. The VL Active Player

    I see the devs being thanked for a good job on the Elite raids and I agree for the most part. Yet at the same time there is a lot of this "I beat this elite raid at baby cr the first day."

    Elite raids are what was supposed to be given to the "Elite" players because they wanted challenging content. That's what you get. Its starting to sound like "Elite raids this DLC were great but not challenging enough because I want something else."

    Beating buggy Elite Raids the first day doesn't say much. Baby CR wasn't used. Baby CR is using what is left off from the last DLC. We could argue all day about it but the point is the finished product wasn't beaten. The finished product is what we have now, where the raids are 'working as intended' after updates and hotfixes and whatnot. Sure, people may disagree, future fixes and edits could be made and that's what the finished product would be. I'm 100% sure players have/can beat the raid after these fixes. Some maybe even without max gear/CR. Good on you! With these fixes there is a lot for players to learn, relearn, adjust, or even try for the first time. That discovery alone can be a challenge to some. People can run them the right way.

    Even that aside absolutely no one should be done with an Elite raid even if they beat it the first day. There are feats to obtain, collections to get, catalysts that drop, gear to get. That's all considering the fact you don't replay. If you chose to replay, that's entirely on you. Its intended for the DLC to last longer than a week or two. Its taking into account the fact most people don't replay let alone replay 1st two bosses to get gear/renown, come back, beat the raid, then decide to ask for more. Or maybe quarks vendor gear was used. In any case, these systems of progression are in place for you to use at your own leisure but its not expected of everyone.

    On the other hand, if you have nothing to do because raids "don't require max gear"(Not disagreeing) and you're not interested in the feats, collections, drops, etc, then that's unfortunate. Or perhaps you've completed every single thing(at your own pace). Or you've completed what you want to complete and don't care for the rest. Again, that's unfortunate for the person. That's pretty much how DLC's have been in this game all across the board. Beating a raid once or twice the first day or week didn't mean you'd get content the following week to satiate your boredom. Its the nature of an MMO. Can't make everyone happy in that regard. SM is definitely not the answer to solve that.

    There have been countless SM rounds that are hilariously easier than some of the raids we have now, with far less mechanics and requiring far less communication. All it proved to be was just higher CR bosses and adds with each mechanic hitting harder, and mind you there weren't too many mechanics in the first place.

    Lets pretend SM comes back. It'll be beaten within a day to maybe 2-3 weeks, dodgy tactics included(Its happened nearly every time. Round Hopping Swap(FoS), Backwards Timebomb, Invisible Ledges, WM Mass Terror, Getting bosses stuck, etc). What then? "Oh well we beat SM as well. We have nothing left to do. Don't want to grind feats, money, collections, gear, none of that." Well, you still have to wait until the next DLC.
    • Like x 3
  19. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

  20. Proxystar 10000 Post Club

    Having given this a little more thought the structure of the content possibly isn't really the problem the gear and pricing is.

    At the moment we've got this completely asinine gear/reward structure where we're motivated by moving top to bottom i.e.

    Elite gear gives a discount downwards, so people are striving to get elite gear first so that they can then move down the gear line either on alts or buying the discounted normal gear for feats - this entire structure is ridiculous.

    The gear and progression needs to work naturally upwards not sideways or downwards.

    1. When a DLC launches a player should have to gear up with some greens, blues and purples in order to beat 'NORMAL' content

    2. The player should then grind out a set of 'NORMAL' gear to then move on to 'ELITE' content.

    The gear needs to be priced accordingly. The normal vendor gear needs to reflect the stats required to easily beat normal content as that's what you'd expect when geared fully and then when you have full NORMAL gear you are provided with a meaningful, yet possible challenge in ELITE content that progressively gets easier as you get more elite gear.

    The gear needs to be priced appropriately to reflect the required time to gear up naturally throughout the course of the DLC while moving through both "trash gear", "normal vendor gear" and then "elite gear" culminating in the completion of gear when the DLC is due to expire.

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