Top Bug - In Progress Shattered Gotham Elite - Shazam cog unmanageable

Discussion in 'Arkham Asylum (Bug Discussion)' started by KlarkKent, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. KlarkKent Active Player

    When I made same bug thread on old bug section Millbarge only pointed out that madness meant to increase every second during last boss fight but we did not get anser of why it is manageable to keep madness low while it is under 50% and why its not controllable when its above 50%?

    To reproduce this, start Harbringer fight at 0 madness in Shattered Gotham Elite raid. Shazam will offer the cog every 20 madness points for entire fight. (if madness kept below 40% all the time)

    Issue starts when madness pass above 50%. After that point madness will increase all the time even all cogs taken successfuly. It gets unmanageable after that point. That leaves group only with 4 cogs max until madness reach 100%

    Is that limiting on cogs after 50% madness intended or not?
    • Like x 15
  2. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    We have dug into this but have not found what you are describing yet. We don't see any difference between madness above or below 50%.

    Shazam offers the interact for wisdom every 25 seconds. In those 25 second rounds, madness goes up by 25 (realistically 26 or 27 or 28 based on how fast the group is to react to and then secure the interact). Wisdom drops madness by 20. So madness is always increasing with each round, even starting from 0, once the harbinger is out.

    You do have this limited window of time to make the harbinger dead.

    Any more info/video/explanation to help us understand further would be appreciated.
  3. Crash Allen Dedicated Player

    The issue is the appearance of the cog isn't consistent, at least not in elite during the last boss. This seems especially true when trying to do Raving Mad. I suspect this is a result of combat mechanics, cc, and physics effects messing Shazam up. Consistently, even if we'd wipe to force reset before madness hit 100, Shazam would outright skip or have extremely delayed cogs such that we'd be lucky to see it appear 1-2 times before madness hit 100 and no matter how many times we tried this was always the case. We should be seeing minimum 6-7 cog opportunities and we'd get less than half that. Then, after we'd give up realizing it was still bugged and let madness hit 100, the cog behaviour would be the exact opposite and, contrary to what you're saying here, we'd be able to essentially keep madness at zero with the cog appearing fast enough at times we'd be able to actually lower it beyond what it was originally at. Really screwy and aggravating behaviour.

    This has been an ongoing, infuriating, feat-breaking issue so it's frustrating to talk about. I don't have footage but also don't want to waste more time in SGe to get it after getting cheesed by the cog so much. Not sure if this is an issue where something on live isn't showing up on your guys internal build or if it's different in reg than it is in elite or something. All I can think of is maybe are you guys examining cog behaviour in a vacuum? Or are you examining it in actual combat vs Harbinger with the NPCs susceptible to all the meriad cc effects therein? Because Harbinger has a lot of knockback bs that does apply to the NPCs and which could very well be a factor.
    • Like x 1
  4. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    more cogs, more problems

    Thank you for the follow up.
    • Like x 2
  5. Illumin411 Well-Known Player

    On last boss it drops it by 25. I got yelled at by entire group for messing up the madness feat because it dropped to 47 after I hit it. I had hit it at 72.

    Something DOES need to be adjusted about the madness mechanic during the last boss. From what I've been told by the few who have this feat, there is a small range that the madness has to be on at the start of the fight for the feat to even be mathematically possible. One person I play with said they had to purposely wipe several times and time the wipes within a couple seconds in order to be able to begin the fight within this range. And even then, the Shazam cog cannot be missed a single time. I'm pretty sure that specifically timed wipes are not intended to be the sole working strategy to be able to get this feat.
    • Like x 2
  6. Saybro Committed Player

    Long story short, the cog is inconsistent and the madness isn't as well but this is in Elite. I can't speak on regular and I don't know if the others are stating this. This is applying in ELITE SG.. The cog can drop the madness by more than 20. It has happened in a group I was in.

    The madness increase is not the same from 0-50 and 50-100.
    • Like x 3
  7. Crash Allen Dedicated Player

    There was also a 1-2 day period where the cog did work properly when it was fixed after being completely broken to the point it wouldn't appear at all. Some people got it then. I distinctly remember because we did Masters of Madness that day but it was late, so we were like "sweet! Now that it's working, we'll do Raving Mad tomorrow :)" then the next day was when the cog started being screwy af.

    I don't remember there being patch notes or anything suggestion that change was intentional, so @Mepps I'm wondering if something happened to mess with the hotfix that was implemented there? Because during that 1-2 day window, it was fine and much closer to what you've described you're seeing on your internal servers.
    • Like x 1
  8. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    Any idea what dates/hotfix that was?
  9. Crash Allen Dedicated Player

    I might have to wait until I get home to check my feat log but I'll see if I can find the patch notes on forum.

    Update: I can't find anything in notes so the feedback may have been in the old bug thread or something. I believe the fix was in response to the issue where Shazam becoming caged by Spear of Destiny during Mordru would result in the cog no re-appearing ever until madness had reached 100. Instead of digging through everything I'll give an update later when I see when I got Masters of Madness done. The day the cog worked every run, we were like "yaaaaaassssssss" then the next day on was all "nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!"
  10. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    A video of the reported inconsistencies would really help us out.
  11. Crash Allen Dedicated Player

    If it comes down to it I'll run it again to record... really hoping someone else has footage or that I can find something highlighting the issue on YouTube. The thought of going back in there with seven other people knowing it hasn't changed stresses me out, even with higher CR and artifacts in the mix X'D

    To provide further context on this, on almost all of our many attempts, the group was 0.001% og mfers with the DPS all being the absolute nuts. I just want to emphasize that we appreciate it's a DPS race and that it's not a skill/lvl issue preventing success. Once we understood the mechanics, we all made Stake Well Done look like Red Barrel Buster Rookie but because of the bugged cog in SGe we'd struggle to get Harbinger to 15-25% at best, with Madness sometimes reaching 100 with Harbinger just past 50% if the cog decided to be especially slutty that day. That was even with the OP temporary seasonal crit food available to us. Feel this bares mentioning as internal stats are gonna be artificially inflated by speed hackers and peeps who got it during that short window where it worked.

    I suspect it might be possible to overcome now that the new DLC is out but even if it is, the bug still makes this the most inaccessible non-LPVE General feat in the entire game.
    • Like x 2
  12. GoDeacs New Player

    Shazam offers his first cog at 0:29 seconds into the fight and the madness is at 74. This is due to group wiping multiple times to get madness to 50 to start the fight. The group started the fight as soon as shazam cog disappeared since Shazam offers his cogs every 24-25 seconds from its first appearance even before the fight starts. As you can see in the video, shazam was hit immediately at 75 madness and only went down by 16. Time stamp for that is at 0:34 seconds. Second cog appeared at 80 and was hit at 81 (0:57) that reduced madness to 65. (NOTE: Shazam never offers cogs back-to-back anymore)

    At 1:00 mark, you can clearly see that Shazam does not reduce madness by 20 but 15-17 at best even if hit immediately. 80 minus 65 is not reduction by 20 and the group was perfect as far as getting cogs goes.

    So 1 minute into the fight only 2 cogs have appeared. Third cog is being interacted with at 1:27 and madness is at 90 bringing it down to 74-75(1:31) and now, get a kick out of this... (Shazam does not do double cogs anymore in Elite) In the video though, the cog appears again at 75! What a miracle! (It no longer does that) so the group was able or I shall say got extremely lucky with the timing on those cogs. At 1:32 the cog is hit and and guess what? It brings it down by 15-16 and not 20 once the cog is hit and done you are sitting pretty at 59 madness. Great... But guess what? If you look at 1:27 again when shazam’s cog is hit a second one popped which is no longer the case in Elite runs for this feat. Had a second cog not appeared at 75, you wouldn’t be getting this feat since Shazam does his cogs every 25 seconds.

    Mathematically speaking, even if you time the fight perfectly and interact with cogs right away 75 down to 60 (1 cog) second cog can only be interacted with at 85 assuming you do it perfectly it brings you down to 70. So 2 cogs and madness is at 70, third cog which is the next cog is going to appear at 95 and hit at 96 with perfect interaction it would reduce madness to 80 but don’t worry the next one which is the 4th one is coming up at 104-105. Oh wait... So you only have 3 cogs with perfect timing @Mepps @Devs. JUST LIKE ALLEN HAS SAID, THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN SHAZAM WAS WORKING somewhat (it still reduced madness by 15-16, just like now) but OFFERED HIS WISDOM OF SOLOMON BACK-to-BACK making the feat possible. In addition, the group is prec based using flurry and minimal support roles. They just got lucky because had they tried to go for that feat now with no Cogs back to back they would wipe on the 4th cog. Essentially, the problem is that Shazam does no longer offer cogs one after another and you only have 1 min 25 seconds to kill him before madness reaches 100.

    Is this feat working as intended? 60 madness down from 75, 85 down to 70 and at 95 down to 80 and then you wipe. So as we stand right now the total of 3 cogs, perfect timing and multiple wipes to start the fight at exactly at 50. Shazam is consistent, he does offer every 24-25 seconds and that’s it! No more cogs one after another like this group had
    • Like x 2
  13. GoDeacs New Player

    Srry, double post. Forgot to mention that the only consistent thing during this feat is Shazam 25 second timer and reduction of madness by 15-16. I think it reduces madness by 15-16 due to the fact that the madness does not stop during the interaction process and hold square on shazam and him running around like a moron. This process takes 3-4 seconds and didn’t account for it, plus accounting for human reaction/lag and other npcs in this fight. I don’t even mention the control effects like stuns, knock downs, skull attacks etc. There’s your reduction of 15-16 instead of 20 that is probably set to be that way with shazam being 25 seconds. I don’t already know how else to explain it or break it down even better. My other account on xbox is getting Auth error 46 for 3 plus months now
    • Like x 2
  14. KlarkKent Active Player

    REMINDER: All feedback exclusively for Shattered Gotham Elite - Harbringer fight.

    Alright. Here I find some video examples about how Madness rising;

    1) Beginning of the Harbringer fight. Madness below 10%. I can be 1 or 5 doesnt matter.

    During this fight, group interacted with cog 6 times. No issues. No extraordinary raising on madness. Im pretty sure they can interact with cog like 1 more hour with keeping madness below 20% all the time. Thats how Shattered Gotham Elite raids are completed on live server nowadays.

    2) When Madness pass 50% or at 50%. Here is an example of a group attempting for Raving Mad feat.(Ignore the video title. There wasnt a fix for Shazam cog during that time. Thats why we are in this bug thread right now...)

    Fight starts at 0:32 time stamp. When we look at this group, Shazam only offers cog 3-4 times until the fight ends. Only limited with 4 cogs because Madness increase outpaces the cog timing.

    So here is my question. Why its always (I mean always) manageable to keep madness at below 20% and why its not controllable when madness above 50%?

    You said there wasnt a difference between madness above or below 50%. I hope videos showing some feedback. Thanks.
    • Like x 4
  15. Millbarge Developer

    There are a few things to unpack here.

    1) Shazam never offers his cog under 20%. A design decision was made to not offer the Wisdom of Solomon until it equaled the amount he could reduce, which is 20. This decreased the complexity of a very complex setup and seemed reasonable.
    We could make a change for Elite mode to offer it at 25 Madness to match the Elite timer if everyone feels like that would help reduce the confusion.

    2) Shazam does decrease the Madness by 20...but this is over is not immediately. A similar effect is seen in Spindrift Station when you are supplying your teammates with Oxygen. Even though you put a full bottle of oxygen in, they did not receive 100% because it took time for the oxygen to ends up somewhere around 96%
    It is a similar effect with the Madness. The Madness continues to increment while he is reducing it. This can also seen in the first 2 fights if you use the Wisdom of Solomon while the Harbinger of the Devourer is out...because Madness is actively increasing while he's reducing it. If you do it while the Harbinger is not there, yes, it will reduce by 20 because it's not actively being increased.

    The video above (Raving Mad (After Fix)) - If it's not truly after the fix, they didn't experience the bug - which is the Double Cogs. Double Cogs were never supposed to be a thing which is why it was fixed. The After Fix video shows exactly what needs to be done to achieve the feat.
    • They started at 70 and interacted with Shazam just as they started the fight (Ideally, they would interact with him and wait for 5 seconds since Shazam offers his Cog every 25 seconds (making the next cog offer at 70))
    • They Interacted with Shazam immediately when Wisdom of Solomon Appeared (they actually slacked off on a couple of them, one in particular)
    • They had enough burn to take down the Harbinger before Madness took them.

  16. Crash Allen Dedicated Player

    But they do get double cogs in the video...

    I believe they were referring to the other fix, where he wouldn't show the cog at all if it had been interrupted during the Mordru fight prior. I forgot to check the date we did the 95% feat but I'm guessing this was around the same time; will post that later.

    When doing the lb normally, both reg and elite, I have seen Madness taken back down to 0 from a higher level during the boss fight and Madness can generally be maintained at or very near to a specific level without much effort at all. There's never any pressure. The only time it seems to behave the way you're saying it's supposed to behave, ie. a pure DPS-check with a fixed maximum amount of time available, is when attempting Raving Mad. The behaviour exhibited by the cog now when starting the fight at 50 and attempting Raving Mad is completely different from the behaviour it exhibits if you're starting the fight at zero. It's night and day. Also, if it was behaving the way you're saying it's supposed to be behaving their would have been plenty of complaints about it vis a vis your average pug DPS doesn't come close to sufficient output to win that race. If I normally do 2-3x (or more) as much dmg as every other DPS in a group and every DPS I was running Raving Mad with does essentially the exact same amount of damage as I do, and we couldn't do 50-100 while mostly ignoring adds and running fewer supports than a regular group would, there is zero chance standard DPS players could do it even normally, without Raving Mad. It doesn't add up and I get the impression there's a huge disconnect between internal/test and live here.
  17. Millbarge Developer

    I think you and I are watching different videos. There is no double cog in this video. Quoting the video directly to avoid confusion.

    • Like x 2
  18. Crash Allen Dedicated Player

    Sorry for the slow response on this. That would have been around Apr 19 we did that. I distinctly remember it because it was a period of 1-2 days where the cog behaved the same at 50+ as it does at <50, so we just did Masters of Madness as we were able to hold Madness at the same level for as long as we wanted. Since that's how Madness <50 has always behaved, we thought it was intentional and planned on doing Raving Mad the next day.

    Correction to my above reply: sorry, I thought you were talking about the other video. Regardless, that doesn't address the problem, which is that we've been told cog behaviour should be the same all the time but it simply isn't. It's neither the same at 50+ as it is at <50, nor does it seem consistent at 50+ from one run to another depending on how Harbinger CCs Shazam. If the cog behaved the way it does sub-50 all the time, this wouldn't be an issue. If it behaved the way it does 50+ all the time, the gen pop would be up in arms because few groups would be able to win as evidence by the fact that if a 5:1:1 approach that depends on completely ignoring adds + perfect cogs w no Shazam CC + a good amount of luck can barely do 50-100 in the allotted time, a normal group would not be able to it at all. It's difficult to believe you guys'd intentionally design the feat this way when it's not how the normal elite fight acts.

    Edit: Upon closer inspection, I think the only reason they were able to pull that off is because Shazam got stuck on the adds and wasn't getting CC'd by Harbinger ever. In dozens of runs I have never seen that happen so not sure if they found some way to trick him into doing it or if they got extremely lucky but I'm guessing that's a factor. You'll notice he's attacking the Daemons and not Harbinger the entire time. While I maintain that there is a bug here in that the <50 cog isn't the same as the 50+ cog, if you're saying the 50+ cog is the intended behaviour than this is still extremely problematic in that the solution is way too contrived. Seriously though, rewatch and pay attention to Shazam... the AI completely craps out and ignores Harbinger despite everyone laying into him. That's actually infuriating and stuff like this is a big part of why people got so upset about how messed up this all is: we shouldn't be at the mercy of the whims of a friendly AI. Also infuriating is that the group in the vid doesn't even look like they were trying to do that... the AI was just like "nah, I'm good... I'mma play it safe back here"

    I'm convinced the Shazam CC component is why my group was able to get wildly different results from run to run despite the exact same people doing the exact same things. We would have killed for a run where he left Harbinger alone and stayed clear of him altogether like that.
    • Like x 1
  19. GoDeacs New Player

    I know exactly what you’re saying... Shazam always follows the last person in fight, however, when the fight starts Harbringer always does his roll and Shazam starts to fight him. I do also think that the cc components delays the timer on Shazam like it did on Mordru caging mechanic. Idk how they’re testing it to be honest, I mean... It’s not like we’re posting it just to post it, there’re numerous posts about. When hundreds of people are saying that you only get 3-4 cogs tops, something needs to be done. And I do agree with you as far as madness maintenance goes, it there was a feat for keeping the madness below 50 (not asking for it, I iust want this fixed) people would actually be able to maintain it assuming they didn’t miss a cog. However, idk why once madness reaches 50+ you only get 1:25 seconds (best case scenario) versus 1-49 madness (duration of the entire fight)

    Edit: Somebody needs to just go in there and record the fight at 0 madness while getting all the cogs and at 50+ madness while getting all the cogs and then I’d like to know why you can always keep madness below 50 almost infinitely and at 50+ it guarantees a wipe after a minute
    • Like x 1
  20. IonHero Well-Known Player

    That's because the cog to trigger Shazam's Wisdom of Solomon always appears at 20 madness.(I've seen it glitch occasionally, and always appear at 40 instead.)

    Basically the cog's behavior is it will appear 25 seconds after the last one disappeared, unless it's below 20, then it will appear at 20.
    (I believe there is something to re-trigger the cog if Shazam was trapped when a cog was up or should have been up)
    • Like x 1

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