Seals dropping in old content

It might save money, but realistically how much. You say add it to content with a rare drop rate, how rare?

On one side if you make it common enough to render the marketplace ones pointless they may as well be removed, if you make it rare enough to the point of virtual non existence or even the odd occasion then what's the point anything you're saving becomes so negligible you just question the point of it.

Like I've pointed out you might save what $5 every 2 months... wow man big money!

Think about this realistically from Daybreaks perspective let's give them this for free or leave it marketplace only.

To you it's only $5 but to Daybreak when 500 players all buy a seal for $5 that's $2,500

This is how microtransactions work, what do you think the business is likely to choose...

Lol what I would personally like is irrelevant to the argument.

You know what else is cheap on the marketplace? Catalysts. You know what we can earn in-game? Catalysts.

You know what else is cheap on the marketplace? XP packs.
You know what we could earn for free in-game? Nth metal.

You see where I'm going with this? How much harm is letting seals drop really going to cause to their bank account? I mean seriously. You say $5 every few months, if that's the norm then what's the point of even keeping seals up there?

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. There's no logical reason to not let this drop in-game besides greed. Plain and simple.

To take it further, they could potentially make more money by letting them drop in content, cause it'll speed up que times, which means new players can get their stuff done in a timely manner which means they'll be more likely to stay and sub. More people would play alts too, which opens the door for style unlocks and feat resets, etc.

You're comparing $5 every few months to a lot of potential subs, it's not really comparable at that point, it's clear what the obvious winner is. Game quality over cash grab quantity.

I'm actually ok with seals not being tradeable. It would make more people run content instead of run to the broker.

Catalysts aren't optional, they're required, seals aren't required they're optional - fundamental difference.

Nth metal is required, so is earned in game as well it isn't optional, however the purchase of Nth Metal to shorten your grind is entirely optional - seals are 100% optional - fundamental difference.


You see where I'm going with this?

How much harm is letting seals going to cause? Who knows I'm not privy to Daybreak's sale results or financial data.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing either, I just hold a fundamentally different view.

As for "greed" hold the horses! That's a pretty serious allegation, I didn't know you were again privy to Daybreak's financial data, but since we're making assumptions, let's say they sell 500 seals a month and make $2,500 that could be their entire months electricity spend to run the business who knows, how is that greed?

Also you have zero data to suggest increased queue times correlates to an increase in consumer spending, you're also suggesting that people stop subbing because they supposedly "can't get their stuff done" again something you can't prove.

You're also assuming the drop rate is significant enough to make people play alts? How many people even care about high level artifacts on their alts, probably not many and even if they did, perhaps I'd suggest their increased spending requirements on seals is a direct result of their desire to play too many characters and not wanting to play within their limitations.

You're assuming sub numbers and creating a strawman to try an defeat my position without any real data and baseless assumptions, come at me with facts and we'll discuss otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

Your whole point is assumption based on personal PoV, how can you even sit there and argue someone else's assumptions when all you did was provide vague math? $5 every few months for you can be $5 every week for someone else, because they level multiple artifacts, or buy kits, or have artifacts on alts, etc. This whole thread is based on vague assumption that you're just arguing against just to have a negative view lol. No one has proof of anything, not even you.

You're honestly just being ridiculous about it, if I'm to be blunt.

Fatal Star vs Proxystar.

vague math, wait what?




I'm the only one here presenting a factual and mathematical argument outlining, why the developers charge for the seals, proving how hyperbolic your position is using math and I'm the one being ridiculous... but it's not ridiculous to start demanding you be given a $5 item for free when you might only need 1 a month, in fact if we're honest, probably only one every 3 months.

The only reason you find it ridiculous is because I've picked apart your entire argument with math and the reality is visible for everyone and anyone with half a clue to see.

I do have proof of how long it takes to level said artifact a truth you're continuing to deny because it doesn't suit your argument of just 'wanting free stuff'


Again, 680,000 experience required, give or take a tiny bit right, in order to get the experience required in let's say 1 month, cause that's what people keep arguing you'd need

680,000 / 4 weeks = 170,000 experience per week - playing 8 hours per day like a robot that would be 24,285 nth metal per day or 3,035.7 per hour meaning that every 10 minutes you're averaging 505.95 nth metal per drop.

That's some pretty hardcore gaming there, all for just the one artifact I might add, again presenting a likely cost of $16.50, all of which I would highly highly doubt you're actually even doing, it's probably more like half, if not a third.

Let's also not forget that this is from 0-160 which requires more seals, if the progression from 160 -180 is the same that will only require 1 $5 seal for the same amount of time grind and even if they increased the drop rate, let's say doubled it, it's still only $5 for half the time grind, which is still negligible.

Now what you're forgetting is that it doesn't matter how many alts you play, it doesn't matter how many artifacts you have, the progression is all governed by 'time'.

so unless you possess the ability to manipulate time and the amount of Nth metal you're getting to drop then you are not getting enough Nth metal to make your requirement for seals a problem. Do you see why your entire argument about alts is a 'strawman' yet?

You're suggesting that your existence of alts somehow creates an increase in Nth metal, it does not, because it doesn't change the mathematical duration of drops, in fact the amount of time mucking around running stuff probably equally decreases your productive farming time.

The only way you're increasing your Nth Metal progression is through payment and logic dictates that if you have enough money to buy Nth Metal you're not going to be quibbling over whether or not you can get seals for free.

So again there's no vague math here, the only one being vague here is you and your assumptions, baseless correlations and baseless data. You just think I'm being ridiculous because I slammed your idea, that's all.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have a personal preference by the way to get seals for free, who wouldn't but let's be open and honest here, even you yourself are accusing the developers of how did you put it 'greed'... when are the players going to also step back and question when they might be attempting to 'nickel and dime' the developers just a little...

Do you mean if they dropped in content?

I run quite a bit of older content as it is so I wouldn't mind that. It just is cost prohibited for them.

Your one flaw here is that artifacts are not required they are infact optional. Just like having SP to a certain extent.

So no catalysts aren't required nether is nth metal.

I still want them tradeable because that is how I got them. Call me a mooch or anything else, but I use my market place cash for other transactions.

This is where I’m going to have to disagree with you. Overall, I like your idea but not the part of Seals of Completion dropping from Elite content. I don’t think players should be “forced” to play Elite content. It already bothers me that certain catalysts only drop in Elite. With that being said, if they were going to have seals drop, then make them tradeable because average (casual) players have a better chance of buying off the broker than getting in and beating Elite content.

I was under the impression that artifacts themselves were optional, therefore making the entire ranking process (Nth Metal, catalysts and seals) optional. Or at the very least ranking them up past 80 is optional. I'm not against buying my seals off the MP because, as you've outlined extensively, it's a fair price.

I fail to see the fiscal harm in random seal drops. And I'm speaking specifically on Seals of Preservation. What if they were random drops for members only? Daybreak would still be getting paid. It couldn't possibly be that bank breaking.

No one should be forced to run anything against their will. But I have to ask is anyone forcing players to level their artifacts past 120 where a Seal of Completion is more necessary than a Seal of Preservation?

Seals are also needed for the Cybernetic Augments to breakthrough. We need to use them more often then just for artifacts.

Let's summarize, so the devs presented us whit a new system, the Artifact system! A system capable of rank up and upgrade whit time!
A few weeks later we go introduced to the life-savers, Seals of Preservation! A mechanism that allowed us a second chance in case of failure. So far so good, after all, whit a probabilty of 40% of success acquiring a seal of preservation seems pretty optional.

However the darkness grows as all light dies, when the DEVS decide keep scalling the amount of catalysts while decrease the chance of breakthrough, in other words 20%(180marks), 10%(210marks). Worth mention that you get bellow 100marks in a week.

Maths Show Case:

• If we assume in 2 weeks we get 180 marks and the percentage of sucess is 20%
• 100/20=5 attemps
• 2 weeks * 5 attemps = 10 weeks ≃ 2 months, 2 weeks (for 1 artifact to reach level 140)

The huge problem lies when the DEVS decide that, Hey why not make a seal of completion? A seal capable of putting all the work the DEVS and players alike build and put it into a big HUGE trash can. The problem was a misjudgement, by devs the supply and demand of an item price. If the key of your car opens your Volkswagen Beetle, but now also your neighbour ferrari, the key has more worth and so the price should match its worth. What devs should have done, would raise the price of seal of preservation to 250DB and seals of completion(which im totaly against and refusts a purpose of gambling and breakout chance) to 1,000DB. What happen at broker was DEVS lack of judjemnt, prob associated to the fact that they didnt had a good look at maths.
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I would also highly recomend dcuo to invest on SM and forms of mainstream it. Mainstreaming SM and Showing devs congratulating people for beating r20 would be a plus, not only for the community but a huge change in reputation as a mmo, after all SM is a thing mainly exclusive of DCUO and most people are not even aware.

Most people think this is just a "super hero genre", this is the best game they ever and will play:3.

This game has huge restrictions to new players, restricting weapons like sheild and powers like hl and rage, its a big no for new players, a ton of new players wanna be lantern powers belive me. I also would higly recomend to find the motives behind menbers buying subscription, unlimited escrow? Access to all episodes? One of thoose must go, I would higly recomend free episodes except the last tier something in thoose lines. I own all episode and all powers excluding atomic and water and also own sheild, still pretty happy to throw that money i wasted in order to be able to get a few freinds to play the game. Thanks

playing the game period isn't required, you can't go to that extent because it takes the entire situation out of context, your argument and discussion has to remain within the context of what it is we're debating, which is artifacts and whether or not seals should be 'free'.

Which obviously is never, because let's face it, they're there to make money.

What other transactions do you make within the market place?

Artifacts are 'optional' but at the same time make a pretty significant difference in your performance, I'm not arguing whether or not they're "pay for stats" what I'm saying is that either way they're a money maker for Daybreak and they're the perfect example of a microtransaction in play.

You say you fail to see the fiscal harm in random seal drops, how can you possibly see it when you don't have the sales data to understand how much money is being made from them, then use that data to ascertain how much of that revenue you want to compromise by allowing them to drop for free and at what drop rate.

As for your "member drop" well that's a bit of a different argument, cause now we're talking membership perks, which starts to consider whether or not they want to entice people to pay membership with it.

Their default position will be, what are you doing with your free cash each month while considering how often you might actually need the seals as I've already pointed out are governed by time.

I'm yet to see anyone actually give a detailed outline of what they're spending their free cash on each month and why this reasonably couldn't be changed to a seal every now and again, just as a point of interest.

When looking at member perks you have to consider how many 'new' members it might gain because any perk you give to existing users is basically giving them something else for free, so if you don't gain any new members you've actually just lost money.

not needed, optional, you can still just keep using catalysts.

and so what, 2 seals for a DLC which lasts 3 months at least, even if you used completion

3 months = 28 days *3 = 84 days / $10 = 0.12c per day - if you were crazy enough to waste time on 4 augments for a totally negligible stat gain then sure double that.


The first breakthroughs you can easily do with seals of preservation by the way so that cost could probably be decreased to $6.50 one completion for the end and a pack of preservation for the earlier ones or approx 0.07c per day.

The other thing to remember here too is we're talking about very serious end game players here that get these things, people that are much more likely to be spending their real money and not quibbling over whether or not they get it for free.

So the other thing I'd ask is "why drop them for free" when the target audience going for the free seals doesn't really need them anyway, are your casual players actually bothering to level up the augments to get the benefits that primarily only have any use in elite content?

It all just starts to signal that you're cutting in to the profits you're making from the end elite game players.

Listen the context of what is discussed is on the people. You replied so it is in there now.

As for getting their money I have already stated that I pay for goid ideas and that I would pay more per month for a better game.

I buy just about everything cosmetic. I don't buy stabilizers, replays, currenc, power respec, or seals from the market place.

I pay my subscription each month and will not pay for something that I deem as bad.

You can argue all you want about how little money it costs, but my arguement is that it is just plain bad.

If you would like to explain from a gameplay stand point on why it is good then let's here it. Just the argument that they need more money falls flat with most people.

No the context of the discussion is the context of the discussion, you can't just change this to suit your argument, that's like telling someone I have an orange, this orange is better than your apple because it's an orange, even if people were talking about what the best kind of apple is.

What you also need to understand is that your "moral" standpoint in terms of "not paying for ideas you, subjectively, find good" is going to lead to an equal consequence, in this case, no seals.

Meaning you either need to use your "free"cash so you're not paying extra money over and above your sub or you use the entirely very risky free route of blowing catalysts, they're the consequences of your choice, you should live with them, not start saying "don't charge me more, but give me the item I don't want to pay for"... How self entitled is that?

I don't know whether Daybreak need more money or not, I have no idea what their financial data is, that is why every counter argument presented thus far falls apart, because you guys keep relying on financial data you can't possibly possess.

As for game play I keep telling you, the amount of seals you could possibly require is so insignificant and you're trying to present your argument in a hyperbolic position to try and make it look like this isn't a microtransaction but a major transaction., when it isn't.

Well you don't have their sales data either but you seem to be confident with your math. Let's just leave that argument alone.
I spend my free points on Stabilizers. A respec token here and there, or a new armory but mainly stabilizers.