Revamp Controller Role (Strip Power Out)

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by BaelinFishman, Oct 25, 2021.

  1. Controller Devoted Player

    No, you should be allowed to discuss your concerns.

    I just want to know what's at the heart of 3 or 4 posters recently wanting such changes to our Role? There has got to be a source to it.
  2. Controller Devoted Player

    And when I ask questions like this the thread gets silent.

    I asked questions like this in another thread just a few days ago.

    You ask sensible questions and even the OP evidently doesn't want to answer.

    Does that make the thread invalid, then?
    • Like x 2
  3. BaelinFishman Well-Known Player

    Honestly I think more emphasis should be put on SP, the game seems like its still trying to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to solo speccing 1 role. I mean 295 max SP into any given stat? Seems a bit low tbh considering the max SP is approaching 680, it'll be just under if not right at 700 by the end of EP42. I mean sure they've been raising the SP cap by 10 each DLC but you're getting more than 10 SP avg each DLC and thats leaving out some of the PITA elite feats. On my fire and tank and accounting for the current cadence I have max heal crits, health and resto specced and almost 20 pts in dom. At the current cadence I could conceivably have dom maxed or close to it by the end of EP 50-55ish if the game makes it that long.

    I mean in my experience/observance if you don't have above average SP/the right equipment then you're going to be lacking regardless of the optimal loadout (even though the loadout helps). I mean I see pugs out there that have SP that is barely scratching the 300 mark and they're trying to battle troll and sure their artifacts may be 160 but the SP is a detriment to them because they can barely at that point you can max out your power crits and not even full vit or might/power, contrast that to someone who has 500+, they can max out DPS/power crits and vit and throw the rest into might/power and health. So at the end of the day for my observation its all about the SP and artifacts when it comes to dual speccing a role.

    Not sure if this answers your question, admittedly I went on a bit of a tangent.
    • Like x 1
  4. Controller Devoted Player

    Did you see my questions to you?
  5. BaelinFishman Well-Known Player

    Honestly no, this is the first I've seen anything from you in the thread, which is wierd because I have the thread marked as "Watched" so not sure why I haven't seen any post from you until now. Sorry. I'm only going off of the "Alerts" section and seeing what pops there. So now to answer your questions that I went back and found:
    Don't know why I didn't get alerted of your posts when I have the thread "Watched", its just easier for me to see the stuff in the alert tab and go right to it than just reading every post for pages on end.
    • Like x 2
  6. NotMeMaybe Active Player

    Nothing need a troll? huh i guess you are playing normal content only?
  7. BaelinFishman Well-Known Player

    I get what hes saying tbh. On my fire tank in some elite raids when the troll dies to lack of awareness, I regularly tank on no power-in from another role. And when I start to bottom out I've got a soda and supply ready on deck. And now with Cyborg that further makes power in next to useless for most people that can manage power. And I manage even better on my healer, but admittedly thats almost solely because of PHR. Point is, since the revamp, power is pretty much done by the player themselves for the most part.
    • Like x 2
  8. Controller Devoted Player

    I've seen this happen with several of my posts lately....I wonder if I am in a "Passive Ignore" setting by a Mod in the Forums?

    I'd think that there was no such setting but I wonder sometimes.

    I've done nothing wrong here...never been warned about anything and have been a member here on the forums since 2014.

    I've had active toons in the game since 2013.

    But anyways thanks for the response. With this being the 3rd or 4th thread to creep up on this recently I hope the Devs take note.

    I realize that that Forum Posters make up only a small percentage of the overall gaming population but I wonder how they feel about the Controller role?

    If they feel as you do (and the other posters that have recently started threads about it), then concern about the Controller role on here is more of an issue than it seems.
  9. BaelinFishman Well-Known Player

    I think its the the buggy nature of the game come to infect the forums.

    I take Hanlon's Razor approach to some things. I can't say the full saying because it contains some language not approved by some people and thin skin by others. But to say it nicely, don't attribute something to malice that can be explained by something else. At the end of the day, its just buggy DCUO being buggy DCUO. But feel free to google Hanlon's Razor.
    • Like x 1
  10. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    I'm quoting really what you highlighted in the other section.

    Content needs to be adjusted to make the effects more pronounced.

    Stun, encase, and other controller effects need to be required and prevalent.

    Healing is too OP, tanks are way to strong as far as survivability and though shields should be strong enough to sustain them against a boss, needs to be tuned down as to actually put healers in a position to actually work for it.

    Though there are people who fail at these roles, they adapt and do complete content even though they may not be up to par with an elite group.

    It only keeps it going, because it's repetitive.

    While it gets easier to perform once 1 understand the role, it takes time for that lightbulb moment, because of the lack of need to apply anything but a lazy few powers and more burn.

    If done correctly, the npc's would require us trolls to adjust, players who are still expecting the content of fighting statues and not wanting npc's to pose a serious threat will adjust.

    Right now everything is centered around tank and spank, roles need to be more pronounced amongst the Npc's.

    Then players need to adjust.
    • Like x 1
  11. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    To add to what I just said.

    It should be obvious that players choose to skip adds.

    Does it really matter the reason, probably not.

    However, reduce the number of adds and make them stronger.

    Not just stronger in the sense of hitting harder, all of them don't need that.

    Smaller groups in the path with aggro towards movement to get past them, maybe give the ones with certain effects the ability to lasso or tether members of the group making it detrimental to just take them out.

    Each group should have a healer and at least more than enough to warrant controllers to lock them down.

    As to not cause tanks to become useless, maybe have a certain number of adds that are immune to tanks or are scripted so that they drop aggro and require roles to actually use their ability for what it is for instead of just throwing them.

    That's just what I see, but as I was told before, content would become impossible to complete and from what I am reading still, a tutorial still wouldn't work.

    Again it's not what controllers can do, there really isn't a reason for any changes, because there are still those that only think of controllers as 1 trick ponies and others who reinforce the notion because of the way content is built.
    • Like x 2
  12. Controller Devoted Player

    No worries - and thanks for the Hanlon's razor comparison.

    Technology can be buggy at times. I understand that.

    With these several threads I've seen over the last week or so it just highlighted the concerns that you and a few others evidently have with the Controller role.

    I'm just trying to figure out how just valid these concerns are.....I'm not wanting to just disregard these concerns as "Noobs or inexperienced players griping" so this is why my questioning is pointed and rather aggressive.

    My OWN personal experience with Controlling over the years is that:

    In some groups - Power Consumption is HUGE - with me constantly needing to spam power. This has been in some pugs but not too often in Elite content.

    Rarely do I even get asked to debuff - and seemingly no one cares about it but I do it out of habit.

    My stuns help but seem to be an afterthought.

    Elite groups require power but power consumption appears smarter in Elite content.

    In one RECENT IS E? I went down and the group actually finished the first boss without me - burning him down the remaining 3rd of the way. I watched their Power Consumption while this happened. My absence was notable but I saw power spikes that were evident of smart use of Supply Drops when I went down.

    In that same raid I went down again for the 2nd boss. Again - I survived until about 70% of the boss was burned, fell off the ledge into the boss's path and one of the Dps couldn't revive me in time.

    Remaining raid party - once again - completed it without me - with a little more power consumption BUT some power spikes that seemed evident of Supply Drops.

    I would LOVE to see evidence in future content of a "Leaning towards Controllers".....but as you and others stated this would require specific changes to content and I'm not sure how this could be implemented.

    I would love to see this tried though.
  13. Tree Well-Known Player

    Ok. /deep breath
    I strongly believe so. With recent events, we (Controllers and myself) are given a new option and a new playstyle to the Controller role and that is buffing. I believe that the misunderstanding stems from this and that a group of players, which is getting bigger and bigger, believe that Controllers are better off as a buffer -- first of all, who is paying for my buffing artifacts? Why would I follow your opinion on how I should play when I have my build set already for power and cc and it is one that I'm happy with? Tell me. /tangentover. Not all Controllers would be proud of sacrificing their power out ability and not actively giving power, personally speaking. And for what? Get a faster completion time? I believe that is the only reason that they can give. Another misunderstanding which I believe is spreading around is that every player and superpower will be OK with managing their entire loadout and rotations in prolonged fights and sustaining their own power at the same time -- that topic alone is honestly debatable and I don't think every player regardless of role is capable of doing so and because of that, I focus on being a battery first and plan to stay that way. That is what I have gathered from the forums and Discord about that.

    TL;DR - Buff trolling as a """Meta""" is changing the opinions of many players and pressuring Controllers to play as that. Not everyone wants to buff, hello!
    I feel like the same group of players have not witnessed what a Controller is fully capable of. Using our "detaunt" and CC abilities, we can literally alleviate the tense situations that happen all the time in Elite content, such as individual or near entire group-wide wipes. And let me not forget those mechanics which throw us off our game here and there -- don't lie I know there are moments like that for all of you. During this, who wouldn't appreciate a group wide shield. Who gives those to the group? If you die, who wouldn't appreciate being rallied by their teammate who can literally teleport from a mile away and save your a**? Who gives that insurance to the group and which power are they? Lastly, the fact of the matter is no dps will willingly sacrifice Robot Sidekick for a Shield just so they can play "safe" and have it "just in case, for pickups". Additionally, the fact of the matter is this: the Controller, 9 times out of 10, has an eight-player shield AND a self shield/detaunt in their loadout(s). Gadgets and Mental are very special.

    TL;DR - Detaunts and group wide shields are useful and will help the fight go smoother. Yet, not every Controller plays the role the same and forgets about their role's many uses. No other but the Controller can provide insurance (in terms of uninterrupted pick ups, jumping back from tough mechanics, tense situations) for your group.
    Some Controllers might be and are not actively participating in the fight and not actively providing their role's benefits and uses. You, @Controller, I know you get it. Vel El gets it also. I do have to admit, Rao has made debuffing miles and miles easier, which in turn makes it boring -- instead of flipping through each target to debuff a group of ads (pre-Rao, I think that was the case correct me if I'm wrong), now we just have an artifact that spreads it to up to 7 additional targets. In one click! Crazy, but hey it's helpful! BoP Commlink also has to be mentioned because duh. 3 separate debuffs under a single click? Broken.

    TL;DR - Amulet of Rao and BoP Commlink has made debuffing multiple targets accessible and efficient. In a way, ease could be boring.
    If only the Group Power Heal superpower gives Might boost also, that is something that could be changed. I also think that Claw's unfortunate and drastic removal of the Group Power Heal ability as a power dump should be lessened or removed since it pretty much forces Controllers to use specific artifacts with the Claw to make up for the loss of power. Where is the freedom of customization in that? @Controller, what do you think about that? Content wise, I think we need more objects/projectiles/etc. in the fights that can be targeted then CC'ed by Trolls. I noticed something in the StU Elite Raid during Batman: those mine bombs rolling around the floor during the Janitor aka A.R.C. robot fight are vulnerable to CC's particularly by Mental's T.K. Bolt. It literally was the embodiment of "I'm a Controller. I will control you, bomb -- get out of my face". I want more of that! Also, permastunning. What's the deal with that? Could we please make NPC and/or player's own crowd control immunities/vulnerabilities be CONSISTENT, streamlined, and easy to understand?

    TL;DR - Crowd Control immunities and vulnerabilities of enemies (ads vs boss vs bounty -- inconsistent) and players are confusing. It'd be cool having wipe-causing ads/objects/projectiles/chunks of debris/cars/etc. that are engaging, targetable, and CC-able. Warrants the term "Controllers Crowd Controlling (C.C.C.) effectively" and provides specific use for their CC abilities.
    To be blunt, the only way that I can think of (on top of my other ideas above) to remind the players why Controllers are important is to flat-out increase power consumption and increase boss' damage, defense, and health regeneration. Just make my debuffs actually make a noticeable difference. If we're a role that acts as a battery to the power bars of other players, why do things exist in-game that are making power management innately easier? WHY? Isn't that the Controller's main job? It literally is in the description of the Controller role; you'd think it would be tough to manage your own power without a Controller, but nowadays it is not an issue. I don't want to agree with the notion that "Controllers are being phased out" which I have been seeing more & more, but honestly, it feels that way... Cyborg, House of Legends Bot, +25% power regeneration from Stat Points...What's up with that? And my final thoughts for my essay is this: if the description of the Debuff superpowers says "reduce ____" and most guides and resources online suggest to Controllers to use Healing, Defense, and Attack debuffs how come noticing the effects of those debuffs midbattle is like.......not noticeable? And why the heck are some bosses immune to Defense debuffs during certain phases of the fight (Brimstone and Corum Rath, for example)?

    Thanks. /exhale

    I want to hear more from your brain and opinion, @Controller. And the forums, too.
    • Like x 1
  14. Controller Devoted Player

    Good points.

    I don't want to think of some "Insidious Plan" to rely less and less on Controllers but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

    I'd love to see another Artifact for Controllers....perhaps another level for Artifacts to increase (Rao Amulet to level 240?)

    I'd guess part of the blame could be on CR Advance tokens....these advance players faster to end game so they can Dps, Tank, Heal AND Control closer to end game content. This gets them to end game FASTER but they spend LESS time learning their roles....

    Perhaps the combination of "Smaller" changes to this game like you mention (like Cyborg's use), and the other "minor" changes to this game over the years have added to a LARGER issue now with Controllers.

    You ALSO make GREAT mention of Corum Rath and Brimstone - an experienced Controller with good levels (120?) on the Rao Amulet SHOULD be able to break these buffs of these bosses - thus making us even MORE needed.

    The game drops the ball with these two bosses as far as Controllers go.

    The other problem I see with this game (and the Forums) is that ONLY IF one of the more......."Prominent" Posters speak about issues like this do they seem to get noticed.

    These issues are - THERE - there is no denying this. Are they small? Seems so...but many SMALL issues become LARGER over time as they add up.
    • Like x 2
  15. catplaysxoxo Loyal Player

    @controller I tried being a troll before. I immediately saw the issues and the dislikes of being one. I hate with a passion being noticed only as a "battery". Many many players were advocating that controllers not be looked at as just that so the devs changed to allow every player to regenerate their own power while still being able to throw pot as a troll. That's fine. On to my second annoyance. Debuffs only work on one target. Wtf **** with that lame *** logic. I shouldn't need to level up an artifact or two just to be able to debuff multiple enemies and even then the debuffs don't last long. Third, by being forced to get those specific arts you are already limiting your freedom to play how you want and be unique to your own playstyle. The player base will always see trolls as just batteries because their own failure to have a good loadout will be blamed on the troll because in their eyes they are not wrong and know what they're doing if they happen to run out of power the one to blame will go to the troll. Fourth, some bosses you can't even debuff them thus making the troll useless and only proving my point that they are there only for power. The game doesn't revolve around elite content or survival mode.

    Not sure where the logic is at when they decided not to give trolls a 10% damage penalty unlike the two other support roles. But there are two people in this thread that are advocating to nerf the support roles even more because it's not enough. One even brought that idea of it being 25% seriously.... >_> this is why I said I'm out because this thread is getting dangerous and these ideas about nerfing support roles even more will not be in favor to the majority of the player base. I only agreed that if you want to nerf one support role then nerf them all not just a tank. Fair is fair. I might be one of few who does not give a damn what role comes to the group whether it's multiple tanks or trolls or healers. As a battle tank I can do many things.
    • Like x 1
  16. BaelinFishman Well-Known Player

    Admittedly I skimmed through most of it, but I get what you're trying to say. But I will say this to your first response in this, Buff trolling right now with the claw is admittedly a meta. But giving power was never part of the original description of the Controller role. CCing, Stunning, controlling the fight was. Controllers were bastardized into becoming power batteries once DPS realized that they could give power and the more power DPS had the more DMG they could do when jump clipping became the hot thing and more and more people were jump clipping. I know clipping wasn't as fast on PS as it was on PC because of the controller configurations and whatnot, but I remember running Paradox regularly with 3 trollers, 3 DPS. One day my league got bored and we had a couple DPS that were bored and wanted to see how far they could push it. So we did a speedfeat run with 2 DPS, 4 trollers. I was a young player back then and didn't realize that not all DPS were that fast @ clipping and therefore didn't need even 3 trolls in a run and got by with 2.

    TL : DR The power aspect was more of a secondary benefit of a controller, but it was never really the primary intent of the role, hence Controller. Not Power Battery.
    So my suggestion as you hopefully read above would go back to what was the original description of the role and it will put power management on the player, and make stunning way more effective and necessary, make debuffing way more necessary, and buff the group in more ways then just have the Claw. Because some people don't have the time or money to rank up that artifact or have priorities on other artifacts. Like Claw was one of the last artifacts I ranked up on my troll toon. Because to me Rao was better because of the debuff increase. But then again I leveled those artifacts as they came out. But if I created a new troll toon today....I'd level Rao first, then Claw, then either Tetra, Cog or SoulCloak.

    Funny Story: I joined a pug group the other day, they asked me if I was a buff troll, ofc I was. They asked me if I had cog (which I don't, I only have tetra right now), I lied said I do have it. I swapped my Tetra out for Soul Cloak and not only did the DPS never notice because they were those chimps that just mashed buttons and didn't pay attention to anything else, but they also survived a bit better because I constantly used my group shield.
    • Like x 2
  17. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    For the record any nerfs that I speak of for the healers and tanks is not related to damage, but to their survivability.

    For healers they need to be brought down, it's to strong. I can see having it tuned down to where a strong group of very skilled players only needing 1 healer, but that's just not the case and I am not implying that the healers are horrible, just that it's like they are way to overpowered.

    As far as tanks go...

    There should rarely be a raid where a group, even pug group look at content and say anything remotely close to saying we got this without a tank and even with the tank, a healer, a troll, and possibly multiple of either in a group.

    Roles need to be more pronounced, not ignored due to the reduction in burn.

    The whole argument against Trolls, Healers, and Tanks damage looks like to me, stem from the abundance of people only wanting run as DPS and the limited spaces available to accommodate friends to join and run with others who are also DPS.
  18. catplaysxoxo Loyal Player

    Excuse me? You are advocating to nerf tanks and healers because they are too OP in terms of survivability? Tanks are all about survivability why would you be in favor of bringing them down?? Lorax had mentioned to reduce non elite gear. That's fine and if that's what you are getting at then nevermind. In fact players can get elite gear, omnipotent gear, skill points, mods and so on to make them OP. Your last point, and this is where im agreeing. Ever since the devs allowed roleless buff to be implemented when there are no healers or tanks DPS will hate when an actual support role is in the group. I'm crazy and bold enough to say to nerf DPS -___-
    • Like x 1
  19. Bipolar Diva Well-Known Player

    I'm gonna just say it. DPS need a 30percent nerf outside of solo/duo content to require all roles in group content. Full stop. Now that everyone hates me again I'm gonna go dps some more.
  20. BaelinFishman Well-Known Player

    Yeah.....NO. Big no from me. You already have a ton of shield penetration mechanics which makes shielding useless and further makes tanks innately weaker if you can't use shields. You also have previous track records of the dev team to go on, when they nerf something, they over nerf it and make it useless. Remember those 50% healer shields...those were nerfed to oblivion when they were made 100% and now they're useless unless you have a 2nd heal feeding SC through EoG. This suggestion is purely asinine imo.
    • Like x 1