Request about Changes to Light

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by dr strangeonline, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. dr strangeonline Loyal Player

    Like many users out their I've had mixed feelings about some of the recent changes made to Light. I understand that standardization came about and swept through all powers. I am not going to ask for things like speed changes. I'm not going to get into the damage numbers for attacks. Those seem to be firm stance's by the Dev's. Any change done to light on those topics would require them to do the same to all power sets.

    What I am getting at is that their have been significant alteration to the power set and its functionality with its AM. It also has some issue's with being in a similar range of other controller type powers within its tree's. This also plays some part into problems for users such as power point spec. Then theirs the overall balance.

    The goal of this thread is to get everyone on the same page. The intention is to gain enough likes to show the dev's their is a clear demand from the user base on this. And that we have agreed these are problems and possible solutions. In the end its up to the Dev team to decide how they want to move forward but they will have to acknowledge that the user base has taken issue to these things in particular.

    Please do not comment rudely to any other players. The whole purpose is to show unification. If you disagree and feel you have to show that please do so thoughtfully and respectfully. Not everyone is going to want these changes to occur. But that is why I'm sticking to things changed by the recent updates.

    I intend to go into these issue's below and break down these issue's into differing categories. I'll explain as shortly as I can why this is an issue and give possible answers.

    Holdovers from GU's (36/38)

    * Light Blast - Light Blast was supposed to have its cast time reduced in GU 38. It would've been changed to single target effectively nerfing controllers. The support tree has 2 total group stuns in its tree(where LB is located). This was a bad change for controllers however doing nothing wasn't much better. Currently most controllers who use this power bypass most or all damage in order to do controller duties. DPS are recommended against using it in general.

    Ideally Light Blast would work differently depending on stance.

    DPS- - single target, two tick finisher 1.5 second cast as was on test

    Troller - multi target, two tick finisher/debuff 1.5 second cast.

    * Chompers and Spike Quake overwriting - Again this was to be a part of the GU 38 changes but players didn't like that it was Chompers that was to be made the full strength DoT. Chompers being one of if not the best power attack to use with WM. Players suggest making Spike Quake the FS DoT. Currently these are the only two super power type attacks Light has that can apply Dazed. Two Light Players have no way of using super power type attacks within their tree's to avoid overwriting while applying their PI. That is a major over sight.

    Spike Quake should be made the FS DoT. It already last the duration Chompers was to made. This would end the overwriting.

    * GU 36 introduced the Dazed PI to several powers for Light. The attacks that capitalize are sprinkled throughout both tree's. However only in the Assault tree can a player find the PI applicators. This is especially a hindrance for controllers who spend most of their points in the support tree.

    Aside from that it hurts the overall use of the infinite loop mechanic(our AM). Most loops will likely never get past 3 or 4 by either DPS or Trollers. However having only might type attacks for PI applicators forces loadouts(hurting the play your way motto) and playstyle's.

    I suggest making Impact, Light Blast, Ram, Mini Guns, and Inspiration all apply the Dazed PI. Players would still use Chompers/SQ in use with WM. The combo type abilities would work like PoT or Debuffs and only apply the PI from the power tray cast. Inspiration could be set up to empower precision type damage attacks to apply the Dazed PI. This will improve fluidity of our powerset and give players more reason to use other powers to start their combo chain.

    * GU 38 added the PoT function to Impact - Light now has 3 PoT type powers. This is a problem because it causes balance issue's among the other sets. All other Controller powers have 2 PoT type powers. A multi target and single target PoT. I propose that Impact move up in the tree and Gloves move down. Gloves would have its PoT function removed.

    GU 38 also removed shielding from the game. Light has one shield. The set was originally designed to have 2 shields. Gloves is the most expendable at this point(aside from triage but the dev's seem adament that this stay in the power set). I propose that Gloves be removed and an aggro drop shield drop into its place(impact's current placement). That would fix the loss of shielding giving Light a similar range of shields as other controller powers and abilities.

    This would also cause the need for additional combo's to be added to certain powers. Impact>Hand Clap and Light Blast> Impact.

    Debuff issues

    * Light is extremely vulnerable to the counter system. Our defense debuffs in particular. Whip Thrash is vulnerable to block and Light Blast is vulnerable to interrupt. The HT mod can be worn but with future changes in mind for PvP that may not be the case.

    I propose either WT work similar to Gloves/Claws and no longer be vulnerable from the power tray cast. Or Chompers be given the defense debuff for the assault tree.

    Light Weight and Entrap are both also vulnerable to counter mechanics. That gives Light 4 total debuffs that can be countered. At the minimum WT should be adjusted. Entrap's a quicker cast and is less frequently an issue. If Light Blast cast time is reduced the issue would be less prevelant.


    * Fan has had many changes. In GU 36 it was changed from a channel type attack. This was great but due to the multiple changes it's received since its inception players would like to see the horizontal width of the cone increased.

    * Full range AoE to AoE combo's. With the advent of WM players have vocalized wanting AoE to AoE combo's. Light Blast to Impact(if gloves is removed) would due that for controllers in the support tree. Fan>Ram could also due the same thing for the Assault tree. While keeping true to the original design scheme of the set as a melee based set. Ram/Impact does more damage at melee range.

    The alternative would be to make Snap Trap an AoE.


    * Post GU 38 we have several powers missing text. Light Blast should read: Does additional damage to enemies under 35% health. Chompers should read: Does additional damage to Dazed enemies. Hand Clap should read: Stuns in controller stance.

    * As of this time Fan's CC effects are not functioning properly in controller stance all throughout content. The stun and knockdown in particular.

    * Lunging Swing is cancelling damage when clipped and has been post GU 36.

    I fully understand that some players may not want to see much changes. As of now the revamp(improvements) have been met with mixed feelings. This thread is meant to show consensus and give the Dev team our thoughts on where to go with the set without major overhaul.

    The team could start with Bug issue's in one update, move onto holdovers, then debuffs and wants. It could be sprinkled in throughout future updates. It'd be nice to see it done at once but I understand how busy they can get.

    Thank you all for your time. Please Like if you agree with these. Please keep comments constructive.
    • Like x 46
  2. Lord Raiden Dedicated Player

    I agree with everything that has been said in the OP. This is everything that has been listed in the other HL threads. +1
    • Like x 3
  3. LastMight Active Player

    I think Chompers Dot was nerfed im pulling way lower numbers than before and in terms of the full strength Dot i think chompers would be a better fit it has a higher multiplier than SQ meaning it would be more benificial and i definatly agree on Snap trap as Lantern Stewarts aoe iconic and it should do then kneel down animation like your stuck to the ground i think sorcery has this animation and maybe call it light grenade idk but thx Drenz for your understanding of HL #3pots... get on our level
    • Like x 2
  4. Super vindicator Active Player

    I also agree with this. A good summary of all the recent threads in one place.
    • Like x 1
  5. FuryX New Player

    Bump for a great post I hope the powers that be pay attention to.
    • Like x 3
  6. Rich Homie Quan New Player

    Can we please address the ridiculous power cost that light has when using it's awesome mechanic and not spamming weapon mastery?
    • Like x 4
  7. Rich Homie Quan New Player

    Remember when we mostly asked for things like chainsaw and lightweight to get buffed? This was when we assumed that these no brainer fixes that are listed in tho op were going to be fixed by gu36, lol... Now all we ask for are these fixes that should have been done by gu36.

    So sad to see what the most unique power in the game has been reduced to, all because Spytle as able to kinda jump cancel against a sparring target :(
    • Like x 2
  8. dr strangeonline Loyal Player

    That's a good call out. I'd agree either a power cost pass or at the minimum our AM(infinite loops) should be made more viable. The PI working with combo powers is a start but some powers do have a higher than average cost.
    • Like x 2
  9. denverweise Well-Known Player

    I have to admit I think the troll side of Light is solid in every way, and the DPS side is designed to be mainly weapon mastery damage with shorter combos following the WM. This makes perfect since considering it IS a precision based power after all. If you're having trouble with the troll loadout I suggest trying a new loadout, and if you're struggling with damage out, I suggest getting a hard hitting/slow WM combo like shield to pistols, martial arts to Hand blasters, bow to pistols, or everyones favorite Hand blasters to bow. I chose to throw these up as examples, because from what I've seen, the melee rotations with HL are really only applicable in PVP, and even then I ld say to try out more PI constructs that aren't vulnerable to block, or lunge depending on your opponents' play style
  10. denverweise Well-Known Player
    So here is a thread that outlines the mechanic for dps roles, you'll notice that Light is listed as COMBO and combo is defined on the thread, I'll copy that definition right here to read though.

    Combo: Powers that transition into combo attacks causing Precision based damage. Combo powers achieve high damage output generally by clipping a combo with the next power.

    So "the ridiculous power cost that light has when using it's awesome mechanic and not spamming weapon mastery" is an incredibly low cost, because weapon mastery being used correctly and not "spammed" costs nothing. and the construct combos to finish the rotation and achieve the awesome mechanic only cost power for the initial hit, all constructs COMBO'd after that initial hit are free to cast. Even with clipping to speed up the process the entire rotation for a properly used hardlight rotation is minimal
  11. dr strangeonline Loyal Player

    Thank you for your suggestion but I have no trouble with performing my role in any way. The issue's I've provided stem from the changes and how incomplete they feel overall. The set is still functional for the most part. It just doesn't feel complete or well thought out. Things like missing PI applicators in the support tree. Or missing PI applicators that can start a combo chain. Light having 3 PoT type powers. These are all small things that came about from the recent changes that haven't been addressed. Many of the suggestions I've made have to do with bugs or planned changes that did not occur but we're supposed to.

    Light DPS is not meant to be WM. That is supposed to be a choice. Our AM is meant to be infinite loops which doesn't really blend itself well with the PI currently. Probably my biggest pet peeve right now. Light DPS is boring now but so is everyother power post WM.

    Light Controlling is pretty good but it does have some issue's mainly with the defense debuff type powers since they are more vulnerable to counter than other abilities. Other than that yes it is very awesome.

    I appreciate you giving suggestions. Thank you. Myself and other users have been unhappy with the cohesion of the set Post GU 36. That has nothing to with speed. I'm firm on this. I'm not asking for speed. It has to do almost everything with the PI set up and changes that did not occur in GU 38 that we're supposed too. Everything else is a bug, or balance issue(light's 3 PoTs and 1 shield for instance, that is not in the same range of abilities that the set was designed with or other powers have). It's not because I don't understand the game or the power. I am simply an unsatisfied customer. Thank you again for your input.
    • Like x 4
  12. Original Gunna Well-Known Player

    Just one random idea. I noticed you said having a might based DoT hurts, the play the way you want motto, so why not make SQ the FS DoT and then allow for a hold melee after?? To turn that DoT into prec base hits just like some of the rage powers.
  13. dr strangeonline Loyal Player

    You are correct. Light is a combo type power and it is likely the same reason the dev's created the set in mind with its inital higher than average power cost range for many of its abilities. However that green part you underlined "Combo powers achieve high damage output generally by clipping a combo with the next power" is the part some players feel this needs looked into. If a player is consistently clipping every combo attack their going to use a lot of power. However that's a choice. If their using to much power they can go further into the combo chain and then clip an attack giving the controller time to power them.

    None of this though isn't reason for the dev's to take a look at it. Some of the powercost are considerably higher than average per tier and ability type(debuff, PoT etc) than other controller type powers. That may be how its intended.
    • Like x 1
  14. dr strangeonline Loyal Player

    That's a fair suggestion but what I was getting at is that SQ/Chompers are forced onto loadouts because they are the only PI applicators that are super power type's in the Light power tree's. Granting it a combo would be fine but I'd still be forced to pick SQ or Chompers to apply my PI.

    Personally I'd rather they grant some of our combo abilities that currently do not interact with the PI, the ability to apply Dazed(impact, ram, light blast, mini guns, inspiration). That will put Light in a similar number range for PI applicators as the other controller power sets(5 - 7). Without too much work.
  15. ErnieB Loyal Player

    There is a problem with that statement, we're not supposed to use WM in light, it wasn't made for us, WM was made mainly for might powers and powers that relied on DOT's, light doesn't fit in any of these criteria. Also Light being combo base shouldn't need to use weapons for anything other than increase in stats.
    • Like x 4
  16. ACW37162 Loyal Player

    Dr Strange

    Thank you for your work here and I the developer discussion thread. Your efforts to be both reasonable and positive on an Internet forum not known much for either is impressive.

    I agree with almost everything you have to say.

    If they do give Light an AoE to AoE I would recommend Snap Trap change to light grenade from Jon Stewarts legend tray power. Mainly because it is a 50% modifier and looking at the power touch ups so far you have voracious plants, static push, spontaneous combustion all 50 % modifier burst weapon mastery finishers.

    I'm so so on removing gloves for an aggro dump but I would suggest something like air dash from the flight tree essentially teleport from quantum without the snazzy animation, or you could go like gadgets with HL pet that steals aggro and absorbs damage.

    You didn't mention power cost scaling the ratio needs to be reduced for combo mechanic power set players or base power costs adjusted. Rage, celestial, and HL get seriously screwed here. The scaling is just ridiculous.

    I really wish they would get rid of the PI and just adjust base damage values.

    Adding a PI means that even if you could in game execute the infinite combo chain (which you can't thanks to counter system, stuns, juggles, etc) but even if you could execute this almost impossible skill based attack you would loose damage because your PI would go down, really?

    Also the combo mechanic powers need a base mod that offers them counter protection in PVE or at least a percentage better chance to ignore or resist counter while comboing.

    Thanks again.

    Like I posted to the developer thread. I think we will see comprehensive bi-partisan immigration legislation before HL gets the kind of attention you and I would like to see.
    • Like x 2
  17. Rich Homie Quan New Player

    I believe you're interpreting the devs statement wrong, they are talking about clipping our constructs with constructs to achieve high damage, not weapon combos. HL is not the only class that can clip weapon combos, so that is not an "exclusive awesome mechanic", to HL. All powers in the game can be used to clip weapon combos, so that's not what the devs meant by that statement. When using HL to clip constructs into constructs (which is what the devs are referring to by you statment in green), the power cost is absurd.

    Awesome mechanics are balanced with each other. If you look at any other AM, they all use less power when used solely as your main source of damage.

    Remember, weapon mastery is an option, not a requirement to make a power viable. Powers and awesome mechanics need to be balanced without weapon mastery as a standard to make it work. Also, nobody should ever bring up infinite constructs, as it is not a viable way to dps anything other than content the player is over geared for.
    • Like x 3
  18. krimzonk Committed Player

    You missed out two things drstrange.....our awesome mechanic "Construct Combos" is non-existent and needs fixing. We also have no viable construct combo chain which keeps us at range at all times and does AoE damage.

    The below is what I have posted in several HL threads (hope this time the devs actually listen) I have omitted things you have already mentioned drstrange:

    1. Now normally when I spec as a HL dps (pre GU38) I could get Light Barrier as my shield and keep it on my load-out for those moments were I need a bit of damage mitigation and get the iconic innates I need..BUT...due to the awful placement of Inspiration I waste TWO power points getting Recharge and Entrap which are of no use to dps', this is a really big oversight from the dev team. The poor placement of Inspiration means we waste two power points, which could be put to better use.

    2. Snap Trap needs to become our ranged AoE move. This will allow Grasping Hand to become our single target boss killer. At the moment both moves essentially fulfill the same function, so this change will give the powerset a LOT of variety in how to build our load-outs and how we use our combos.

    3. We need ranged combos which will always keep us at range. It is as simple as:

    - Impact > Snap Trap > Light Blast/Fan. Then tap range to loop.
    - Impact > Grasping Hand > Light Blast/Fan. Again tap range to loop.

    Now let me explain. I have given HL players the option of using Fan OR Light Blast to finish the combos. The reason being if the boss is above 35% health we use Fan. If the boss is below 35% health we finish the combo with Light Blast. This gives us variety. Also as you can see one combo is mainly aimed at killing groups of enemies as it has Snap Trap (which should be an AoE like John Stewart's construct grenade) and the other is mainly single target as it has Grasping Hand (which again should become a single target boss killer).

    4. Our awesome mechanic needs a lot of work. Why gives us a PI if the way HL has been designed to do damage is through combos!? Crazy decision if you ask me. I will repeat what i posted earlier again: Devs please can you clarify what our awesome mechanic is...If it is indeed construct combos/combos as stated by Spytle in Dev Discussions, then it sure as heck does not work. No way can we match WM. I would much prefer if you just removed the useless PI (which NO HL player EVER wanted) and tweak our AM so that with each successful combo move hitting, our damage multiplies by 10%. For example:

    - Ram (10%) > Snap (20%) > Fan (30%).
    - As you can see from the above combo, with each successful hit our damage is increased by a multiplier of 10%, with it being capped at whatever % you devs see reasonable.

    This change would get HL players to actually USE our construct combo's as well as returning the thrill and excitement of using the powerset instead of just spamming weapon mastery over and over again as a HL dps, you ask why!? Because our HL power tray moves hit like pillows!

    5. For the above awesome mechanic to be viable, a Power-cost reduction on our moves must happen for both roles.

    A looooong post. But, these are ALL points which have been repeated time and time again by each and every HL player on the forums and even those not on the forums agree with what is being said.

    Please listen to our feedback devs and post, tell us what you are doing.

    Many thanks! :D
    • Like x 2
  19. Original Gunna Well-Known Player

    Ohh yea that's very true I see what you mean now. It would be better to have only 2 PI applicators I figured having an option to have a full precision DoT could be a bonus compared to hard lights options now.
  20. denverweise Well-Known Player

    Not misinterpreting anything, here's muh rotation that I smash things with, damage is comparable to any power i've played next to.

    WM>Chompers/Inspiration WM>Snaptrap>Fan/Fan/Ram>Whipthrash/Snaptrap>Fan/Fan
    arrows are transitions and slashes are clips. by the end of this rotation I can start the whole thing over as this rotation takes EXACTLY 12 seconds which is how long the PI from chompers and the cooldown or Inspiration lasts. I use shield HOLD TRI x4 combo for WM