PvP based on reaction not strategy or skill

Discussion in 'Battle of the Legends (PvP)' started by FrankZappa, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    In the past you had to get into the head of your opponent and predict what they will do before they do it. you would pay attention to their fighting style and predict their patterns. it was like playing a chess game where you are trying to out think your opponent not simply react to what you see. when pvp was actually active you had to play smart and be a step ahead of the enemy. you had to know when he was going to block and you had to use BB at the same time they blocked unlike now. now a days all you do is react to what you see. you see them block and you use bb after instead of predicting the block.monkey see monkey do mechanics. clearly people do not enjoy this style of gameplay since the majority of pvp players have left the game and will never come back and the pvp community in general is non existent. if it is not broken do not fix it i say. there are a few who like this style but when we see how low the pvp population is it is clear this is not a mechanic that is working. they need to go back to what works if they can. the game was skill based not reaction based and that is what i want to see. the pvp in the past was addictive but now it is just annoying. people catch delays and think they are good.
    • Like x 3
  2. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    was thinking about what it is that i liked about old dcuo versus the new dcuo pvp so much at work today. basically the old dcuo was a lot more like a combat sport. I am a fan of combat sports like UFC and I practice jiu jitsu. I love jiu jitsu because you have to predict what the other person is going to do before they do it and prepare for it. like in a real fight if you respond to what someone does after they do it you just end up getting punched in the face. in order to avoid getting punched in the face you have to anticipate what they will do next and prepare. in boxing you can raise your gloves or lower them. you raise them you expose your body you lower them you expose your face. so you try to predict whether or not your opponent will hit you in the face or ribs and prepare for that, you can not wait for them to punch you in the face and then react to it by then it is to late.
    • Like x 2
  3. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    typed in wrong thread, do not know how to delete this so i edited it.
  4. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    sorry trying to get this signature thing to work. testing it here since no one has commented on this forum so i won't bug anyone by testing it here.

    nice i got it to work

  5. BƖack Dedicated Player

    I miss DCUO from 2011 Archangel era. Man... that was super awesome game.
    Open world was full of people, 1s, 2s, 4s, 5s, 8s was popping after seconds.
    • Like x 1
  6. Mentaldope40 Committed Player

    Who you telling, that was way more fun and encouraging to make your character stronger just so you can take on as much players as possible, those were the days.
    • Like x 1
  7. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    I use to be good in a gank. end up with like 5 heros trying to jump me at once. usually one player would try and go off to the side and bb me from a distance and i would lock on to them and punish them. players would try to predict what you are going to do next to counter you so you would think ahead and counter them trying to counter you. it is like I know what you know but you do not know that I know what you know. like if you use martial arts and do the combo where you get to smoke bomb, they think you are going to use smoke bomb so they block and then you BB them instead. I was hand blasters and i would attack them then they thinking I am going to finish my combo would block, I would then use power discharge which is a HB attack that block breaks everyone around you and BB like 3 out of the five guys. now they think i am going to BB because that is what i did last time so the five guys trying to gank me would all lunge around the same time all thinking i would bb like before but no I block because I see it coming. then I end up block countering like 3 of them the other two seeing me use block would then try to BB but since I know the bb was coming i would lunge them and take them out. you can not do that anymore because you would block counter the 3 then the two seeing the block would bb and even though their timing is completely off they would still get the block break. delays are the main reason i can not play legends anymore it is just terrible dealing with delays and watching unskilled players catching delays like noobs.
    It was like being batman. in the animated movie batman vs superman at some point batman says something while fighting a criminal something like "this is not a fighting arena this is and operating table and I am the surgeon!" that is what i was like. I was like boy this is no regular pvp fight I am a master strategist and I got you figured out!
    • Like x 2
  8. Mentaldope40 Committed Player

    Facts and that's what made Character build so fun.
    • Like x 1
  9. BƖack Dedicated Player

    I wish there was Classic Server for DCUO from 2011 or 2013.
  10. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    No disrespect to you, but this simply isn't true. I can't think of any sphere of current PvP where this is true. Most especially in legends, which is arguably the only remnant of old-school PvP in the game.

    Yes, it is true that having excellent reaction speed will take you far in here. Against blocking opponents, specifically those who block predictably, you will land almost every block breaker (BB). Against players who throw random BBs anyone half-decent can lunge interrupt those. You can block the slower weapon types on reaction for sure: two-handed, brawling, dual pistol, staff, etc. Then in combination of counter punishment and knockdown you can get in great damage and win the encounter. But that's where that story ends. Assuming all you have is reaction speed and 0 IQ/Strategy, any average player can simply stop blocking, stop BBing, and minimize their risky/blockable attacks. You will die. Especially, if they're using a strong character capable of high damage like Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Batman, etc. Then you have to outdamage them, which certainly requires thinking.

    The argument that PvP requires less strategy than reaction speed gets even worse once you start going up the skill ladder. I can assure you that having the best reaction speed is not enough to defeat the best players, not by a long shot. The best players can completely change their fighting style on the spot if they lose an encounter. Everything you were reacting to before is for naught, because it doesn't exist anymore. They aren't blocking anymore, not using that combo anymore, baiting you into blocking then landing perfect BBs, canceling animations then blocking at the perfect time, etc. Not to mention that they themselves also have the best reaction speed. IQ/Strategy absolutely separates players even of similar skill. You can observe this by watching 1v1 mirror matches. Excellent players can lose by 5 kills or even worse simply by getting outplayed.

    The only way I could see someone thinking this is if they're on PC, as this platform gives a significant advantage in counter reaction speed (especially BBs) compared to non-PC players, you're only fighting average players or below who hold block for five seconds, or maybe you just have really fast reaction speed. This is all still concerning legends.

    In arenas, I still can't agree with this because Arenas are broken. Reaction speed will not allow you to dominate in there because of all of the overpowered powersets capable of high damage and high shielding/healing with very little counterplay. What good is reaction speed, when either you or your opponent can take half of each other's health with a single unblockable ability? What are you reacting to when your opponent never has to block, throw a BB, or use a weapon combo (excluding rifle slam)?

    The only aspects of Arenas that require both reaction speed and strategy is either when you're using a weaker, non-meta power, or you're using precision. You will most certainly need proper damage output, power management, and the ability to avoid getting countered in the case of using precision to win, which requires both.

    Is PvP in a horrible state right now? Absolutely. But that is mostly because of the state of arenas and open world. They need to return all abilities to their vulnerable to block/interrupt states, and tune the damage and healing of certain abilities. Something also needs to be done about roles as well. Open world and dueling is a complete mess plagued by artifacts, home turf mods, personal dampening fields, buffs, etc. I also think they should return immunity windows back to 2.5 seconds.

    No one is saying PvP is amazing, but implying there's no strategy at all in it is harmful. Especially when concerning legends. Legends is not perfect by any means, but it is the only real PvP left. And there is a sweaty, competitive, albeit tiny community surrounding the mode. Which is why it would be great to get more players involved and interested in the mode. This won't be possible if everyone thinks all of PvP requires no strategy.
  11. Syn Shenron New Player

    I could not have said it any better myself. Most people have never played against the best of the best. Reaction time IS SKILL. PvP has always been a chess game. Players with reaction timing, IQ, and fast reflexes have always the best players when it comes to PvP games. I bet OP cannot instantly BB on reaction to punish or strategize for a punish. So saying strategizing and reaction isn’t skill baffles my mind.
    • Like x 1
  12. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    sorry but you guys are both wrong. you do not sound like you played during the golden age of pvp.

    legends is also broken because of the counter delays. playing with counter delays feels like playing with a controller where the buttons stick. whether you like it or not the fact is the devs increased the counter windows because unskilled players were having a hard time getting a BB, so they complained till the devs increased the window which none of us skilled players ever wanted. they should of just got better at the game instead of complaining.
  13. Puppet Master New Player

    I will have to agree with OP on this one. it is very frustrating when you block or bb and then get countered after the fact. it is like they are throwing the unskilled players a free counter. When i get countered I want to feel like the other person legitimately countered me and it was not simply because he saw the icon above my head and responded in time. There is very little strategy involved when you respond to what you see and then spam a power rotation for max dmg.
    I would go so far to argue that their are no good players left in pvp anymore. in the past you would rank a players skill out of ten but now i do not think there is a single player above 6/10 in the entire game. the counter delays slow down the fighting and basically punish the more skilled players for being good while rewarding the less skilled players. that is what counter delays are for. they introduced increase counter windows to reduce the skill gap between the good and unskilled players. you are arguing in favor of a mechanic that was introduced in order to make the game easier for people. you can not argue that a mechanic like that requires more skill. people literally just tap block now because of these mechanics. good luck out countering someone when they can literally counter you after the fact. like OP said if someone throws a punch and you react after you already got punched that is because you were to slow or not smart enough to have seen the punch coming to begin with.
    "They need to return all abilities to their vulnerable to block/interrupt states" This i can agree with but they also need to bring back the rock paper scissor system as well. The handful of people who still pvp think they are good but have no idea that they have training wheels on their bikes. If the devs returned pvp to what it was then pvp would be more active again like it use to be and all those people who depend on counter delays to get a counter would find themselves at the bottom of the pile.
  14. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    Patch notes? Or a link to the thread where all these "skilled players" were showing their opposition to this supposed change? You're the only person I've ever seen say this.

    Were that the case, why is there not many more top tier legends players? Aside from the obvious fact that many people stopped PvPing in general. The top legends players list today still contains many players both PC and PlayStation who were also top players back when PvP was alive before the revamp. Not just any random is able to catch BBs on that level.

    I'm not familiar with any such thing in legends known as "counter delays".
  15. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    I have been playing for 9 years and trust me the counters use to be spot on until they increased the windows. now a days sometimes your bb does not even connect with the other guys block and he lunges you and you get countered even though you BBed him at the right time.
  16. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    Maybe you just prefer whatever that PvP era is, which sounds like 2011-2012, which there's nothing wrong with that.

    As someone who has been playing legends at the highest level for years, there's currently no consistent issue with vulnerability windows themselves. Now they do sometimes whiff completely, but it's very very rare. 99.9% of the time give or take as long you landed that BB within the window your opponent gets punished. That scenario you just described sounds like someone who "dodged" the BB or was glitching. If you mean they blocked, you threw the BB within the window, but they lunged right as the block window ended, and they didn't get punished, they lunged dodged the BB. Which I wholeheartedly agree should be removed from the game. But that doesn't sound exactly like what you describe.

    The only other thing I think you may mean is, you throw a perfect BB while they're holding block and it completely does not go through, despite them not having any immunity. In that scenario that person is using a glitch, if it's outside that 0.01% that the game just bugs out. It's extremely rare and only one player I know of knows what that entails and how to perform it consistently. I've also only ever experienced that when fighting PC players.

    I'm not sure if you're EU or US, but I've played on both servers, and personally EU is a haven for glitching, dodging, rally timing, etc. It seems to be part of the culture there, so I can't defend that at all. Not all EU players are like that, but it's very common among the top players from over there. So if you're referring to people playing like that, I can definitely understand, and the game needs to completely get rid of all of that.

    On US though it's mostly just skill-based, and few people outside the top tier exploit like that.
  17. FrankZappa Well-Known Player

    do you think it would be harder to get a counter if the counter windows were increased or decreased?
  18. Puppet Master New Player

    well considering that the pvp population is so low that it is hard to get a 5v5 it would not be hard to maintain a top spot when you have no competition.
  19. Puppet Master New Player

    exactly. whether you argue strategy or reaction time at the end of the day it takes more skill to get a counter when the counter windows are shorter not longer.
  20. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    That is partially true, but a massive exaggeration.

    Yes, the population has declined from when PvP was active, and there are some newer faces that are now in the top 10 - top 5 legends players. But those newer faces are no less skilled than the older fighters. That's coming someone who has not only witnessed countless 1v1 scrimmages involving these players, but someone who has personally fought some of the best of the best who played back then as well. You and the OP are saying that PvPers from later eras such as 2013 and beyond are less skilled than older players. Based on the logic you're using, these 2011-2012 PvPers' BBs should be so lightning quick that they should basically 1000-0 anyone who wasn't playing in that era.

    Wrong, that couldn't be further from the truth. The arrogance in that statement is stunning. Many newer fighters are fighting on par and at superior levels than the older players. And I'm talking about top PC players who played back then. Their BBs are no different than anyone else's (aside from platform differences/advantages and differences in skill). Yes, some of them have much faster reaction speed, higher IQ, strategic ability, and adaptability but that's because they're more skilled, not because they were playing in 2011.

    Based on the logic used here, if you were playing in 2011, why are you getting BB'd by today's players? The statement was also made that you had to "play smart" to be successful in PvP back then. So if there's no strategy involved in Legends today, why are you getting countered? You should have S-tier strategic skills since you had to have them be good back then. You should be predicting the future, tapping into ultra instinct. In general, if you're not blocking at the wrong time, using hold combos at the wrong time, throwing BBs at the wrong time, or tapping all day long, you're not ever getting countered, period (minus a few exceptions). And since you two argue that counter windows were increased, why are you missing or throwing late BBs? It's easier to land these BBs now according to you two. You should be faster than everyone, and more consistent than everyone. You should never lose an encounter to your opponent. They're getting knocked down allowing you to get in full combo damage, so you're not getting outdamaged. So what's the issue?

    Anyone who believes that they are so much more skilled than everyone else because they were playing in 2011-2012, they should have no problems 1000-0'ing or pretty much dominating all of today's top legends players who are newer in 1v1 mirror scrimmages since it's so easy. I would encourage anyone who thinks this way to give it a shot.