PvE DPS Balance Initiative: Scaling and Midrange

Where do we stand as far as the testing goes? Are we waiting on an answer about the SC and RS? Is there more testing to be done if those two things are not included? We are progressing nicely and I do not want to lose the momentum.

I think the Devs original comment about how people play is directed more towards loadouts. For example, Sorcery can use a lot of different abilities in a loadout. GS may be one of them, so that isn't captured in the test. So you can put other abilities in the loadout, like WoD. Some players don't use CoD; some skip SW. Heck, I ran a duo last night on live and the other person used Boon.

I truly don't see that many people running around with RSK. As Remander said, someone with MFA is probably going to have both long and short range attacks on their loadout. I know Ice players who do that and also put Reflection on their bar. So no room for RSK.

That a powerset has free slots does not mean it is lacking in effectiveness. On the contrary, Ice and HL always have open slots and are quite close to the baseline. This is the "Live" testing phase. Our testing should reflect what a player actually does. If RSK is part of a powerset's optimal loadout, it should be tested.

But it's not necessarily part of an optimal real world loadout, if you see my prior post. By using contrived scenarios with the sparring targets, you're choosing loadouts that don't necessarily mirror how players run content.

Not to sound contrary but the use of the word "optimal" is where we disagree. If the RSK is needed in the loadout to make it optimal, then that means the other powers available in the power-specific trees are not up to snuff with RSK. If the available powers are not up to snuff with RSK, that to me is a red flag for an inadequacy. From my PoV, a player should be able to achieve an optimal loadout with their selected powers without the need for iconic powers. Other opinions may vary.

Ice is the strongest power and there is room for rsk . But It don't need it ! Also Quantum now might be the top not sure yet because of ice fast burst they might be even so maybe quantum isn't stronger then ice it might be just perfect balance !

And in some cases they are very much real world loadouts. HL has always had room for Robot Sidekick for as long as I've known it.

If people are replacing an SC on their loadout with RSK just for this testing (and the SC would have been more optimal in a real world situation) then yes, that's a problem. I have not been not been doing that for my testing. I only add RSK if I would have added it on Live.

Like I said, HL has always used a Robot Sidekick and I've never felt weird for doing so. You make it sound like RSK is "impure" just because it's an iconic power. I've never felt any bias like that. It's an ability just like any other.

How about this here the Damage From RSk is not worth all this Talk ! It wont be the factor that decided if your damage isn't up to par in a raid ?? I Think were prolonging the testing ! Just like Remander said :Were opening up Pandora's Box. :

Yes, I can see how it may come across that way, and that's partially true. Not that I think RSK is impure for existing but it disrupts the pure focus of balancing out the powers which is the point of this whole exercise. So by itself and in real world conditions, RSK is fine. For the purposes of evaluating and balancing the powers against each other, RSK introduces a variable that taints the purity of creating a power's baseline. To get as much of an equal comparison as possible between the powers, we have to be laser focused on evaluating each power exactly as it is.

I just hope this balancing goes well for powers that have a long build-up for their maximum damage potential (elec, nature, celestial, hl).
Regarding electricity, eliminating one level or allowing to go directly to level 2 DoT (if 3 level mechanics stay) whilst being in mid-range (melee) with electroburst and allowing DoTs (at level 3) to be transferable by Arc Lightning would be a huge step to the right direction.

I gave you a thumbs up purely for the perverse humor of the gif in your sig

Yeah, seriously, we're expending a lot of energy over 600 DPS, when the overall DPS we're looking at is 20-30k. Let's just consider RS and SC as equivocal variables for now, and focus on balancing the AMs, please. We can visit those other issues at a later date.

Well here's the rub. Testers are going to use their own best judgment in testing and I doubt Sore is going to start throwing out otherwise valid data just because RSK was used. He can create a separate chart for it if he wants, but there's no guarantee he will be getting data for AM+RSK as well as pure AM. So unless one of you is going back to redo all the testing done with RSK already it's a moot point.

The devs have to go back and confirm all our data with their own rotations anyway (I certainly feel sorry for that guy), so it's up to that dev to include or exclude RSK.

Sorry, it looks like I stand corrected on that.

The melee target looks like it will be close to 30k. At +/-5%, that's +/- 1.5K tolerance. So a total sway of 3K we have to work with to get these powers to balance and personally I think that is too wide. That 600K is 20% of the tolerance we have to work with to get these powers in line. For range, that'll be close to 30%.

So for Fire you can get your best ranged and best melee in a single loadout. That kind of adds up to another advantage. Nature can't do that without an armory because you'd need to change your weapon and loadout. So even in the context of Fire giving up RSK in content to have both available, Nature gets neither RSK nor being able to manage both potentials in one spec. So if Nature needs an armory to do even that Fire can do without an armory, it's not a big leap to think Fire could bring an armory for RSK.

EDIT: I don't want anyone discouraged. I'm also willing to roll with the recommendation from the devs. If they don't give one, I'll separate any RSK results from pure AM results. It's about the best compromise we can do.

I think RSK should not be included in any loadout, that is prefence. If anything, the standard AM should be compared. This would mean for most Ice players: Wintery Tempest, Cold Snap, and Ice Bash using AG or Avalanche. Most Ice players I know use either Bitter Winds or Reflection Shield over RSK. I do not use RSK for my Ice toon, instead I use Blizzard, though I may try RSK to see if it helps any.

To me we should be focused on the damage out potential of the AM in the most basic form. Why, because that is how a casual gamer will play. Someone who is more creative and wants the most out will go the extra mile to find what the items that will help them squeeze every little bit more out of their power. I know I would.

I thought getting the most optiomal loadout and rotation was needed, but the more I think about balancing the more I realize that catering to players who are able to finely tune their loadout is not what this is all about.

If we compare the standard AM for Quantum with using TB and 3 other abilities with GW and no weapon clipping or SKR what does that produce. That the number we should focus on, because that is how the average player would approach the damage out component of the game.

Very few players go out of there way looking for the best loadout. Players want something that will work and help them get decent damage quickly.

By the way, this discussion is not a distraction at all. The numbers we've provided are certainly more than enough to for the devs to decide what they're next steps are for scaling. We're kind of in a holding patter to see what their next move is. As MMO players, and the good little completionists we are, we do want to make sure our coverage is full. Maybe we retest some with RSK. Maybe we retest some without RSK. I'm hoping Karasawa can give Rage Tunso Test results so that we have the same player doing the TT as LT. And I'm probably due to update the graphs with the latest results presented to me. I retested some Nature now that Might/Precision VII is available on PC Test. It wouldn't hurt to retest other powersets that also benefit from Might/Precision over straight Might in red slots. Electricity comes to mind.

That was my first thought, and why I was initially in favor of including RSK.

But aren't these considerations for the next round of testing? Unless there's not going to be a "next round"... which is a disturbing thought. The other issues on the table-- including this one-- DO need to be looked at. It's not really fair the DOT powers take forever to set up. It's not fair that some powers get interrupted and lose everything while others get interrupted and lose next to nothing. Everything has to get looked at. I'm all in favor of doing it in stages, as long as each stage actually happens.

Personally, for ice I always thought running reflect/bitter winds in end-game raids or SM was rather silly. That leaves you with Blizzard plus either RSK or Avalanche. For the most-recent SM I carried an armory and swapped based on what bosses I could mid-range most of the fight. If I could stay there a majority of the time with no issue, I'd keep RSK. If the boss was mobile or a threat to one-shot me for being mid-range, I'd swap in Avalanche for RSK or Arctic Gust.

For light, the optimal loadout basically requires you to carry fan in the hotbar and that's it. Plenty of room for RSK there. For some powers at the low end of this rather large margin of error spread, 600k DPS is a significant amount. Still think it's worth keeping in and accounting for.

So your just waiting to here from DEVS ?