Proposal : Percentage Based Skill Point Gains

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Kimone, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    The Disclaimer :

    I realize that this isn't the first proposed Percentile Based Overhaul of the Skill Point System; this differs mostly in that it is still functionally dependent on current Geared and Modded Character Statistics in order to derive its bonuses, and in that the bonuses themselves are presented in amount engendered to be useful to both a casual and a hard-core gamer. In a sense, the idea it to provide adequate reward for effort without breaking the fundamental balance of the game.

    The Issue :

    There are two prevailing, diametrically opposed viewpoints regarding the presence of Skill Points in the game : the perspective that maintains that they are, and should continue to be, an important facet of character development and the perspective that holds that characters should be able to function without a heavy investment into Feats to obtain Skill Points.

    The one thing that both of these perspectives hold in common is as follows -

    "Skill Points aren't worth enough for the effort involved".

    Some people are annoyed because Skill Points currently fail to provide an adequate, functional return for the effort involved in obtaining them; others scoff at the effort involved because of the self-same reason. Now, the fact does remain that Skill Points DO increase your character's potential end-game potency : all Stat gains are ultimately positive, however...

    At the moment - using Restoration as an example :

    At 150 CR we'll say your character has a base Restoration of 11000. In the current system, there are Restoration boosts available in the second row bonuses, 6 points spendable for 10 Restoration a piece - your 6 points gets you 60 extra Restoration, or literally only .5% extra Restoration. If you bought ALL OF THEM, you'll only get 420 extra Restoration - 3.5%, and that's at the current CR only.

    Combat Rating WILL increase over time and so will your base stats, so that investment in time demonstrates permanently diminishing gains as time goes on. Considering that a majority of our Gear system is currently very luck-driven, it can be possible to gain literally 20 CR in a single day with a minimal investment in effort.

    Is that fair to the person who wants to spend effort to build their character? Not really. While the game shouldn't be made deliberately obfuscating, it also shouldn't disregard direct effort expended in character building. Every claim made by the Developers when these questions arise is that yes, they want to improve the function of Skill Points.

    So how do we accomplish this?

    The Proposal :

    Percentage-based Stat Modifier Gains through Skill Points.

    Instead of our above example - where the effort you put in to gain 76 Skill Points for your Critical Bonuses, another 7 for your movement mode, and finally grind through another 600 Feat Points to end up with less of a Restoration Bonus than you get from *one* Mod -

    We instead change our second row Restoration modifier to .25% / point spent. The overall gain will be 1.5% for all six points which is 165 extra Restoration with a base Restoration of 11000. This results in a potential 10.5% overall increase for buying all seven sets of it - 1155 at 11K Might - which will functionally scale as time goes on and stats increase.

    10.5% extra anything isn't a game breaking amount; but at that proposed scalar relationship, even a small investment in the Skill Points system would provide you with a noticeable gain in a given Stat.

    It would be validation of the 'end game' player who has spent literally forever accumulating Skill Points trying to better their character without breaking the game in favor of that group. It would also act as a clear incentive to a less experienced or casual player, because even a small investment in the system would afterwards provide a functional improvement in their Character.

    It makes Feat Grinding more attractive and gives us more leeway in how our Characters develop in a performance-based manner via means of both improving and demystifying the Skill Point System.

    The Details :

    All gains in the Weapon Skills Trees would be changed to a flat "(Statistic*Percentile)*Points Spent In Category" Gain. The Base Statistic is a combination of your Gear's Statistics and whatever bonuses your Mods provide - thereby making it functionally more valuable to Mod Gear as well.

    For example : a second-row Passive Bonus would grant (Restoration)*0.0025 per point, so with a base Restoration of 2000, the gain per point would be 5, whereas later in game with a Restoration of 11000, the gain would be 27.5 per Point. If you gain more Restoration as a Stat by Modding, the functional per point bonus from Skill Point expenditures would increase as well.

    Additionally, all Damage Role and Role Specific Critical Bonuses would remain unchanged by this proposition.

    To start at the top -

    At present the Weapons Trees are designed so that four points must be spent in those Combination Skills before any Passive Bonuses can be purchased - that would remain the same; the only difference being that the Statistical Bonuses associated with each Weapon Combination would be converted to a flat 1% bonus in its current Stat.

    The first row of Passive Bonuses includes the Critical Performance Bonuses, which are are already measured in a percentile anyway : assign a further flat .5% improvement to any attached Statistic. Spending points in this row would still improve the associated Critical Bonus in the *exact same manner that is does now*, the only change being that it now provides an aggregate 1.5% bonus to any associated Statistic.

    The second row of Passive Bonuses would be altered to provide a percentile of gain in a given Stat, as opposed to a flat amount : .25% per Point, for another potential 1.5% gain in a given Stat.

    In keeping with the system and the exorbitant amount of Skill Points you have to spend to unlock the Final Row Passive Bonuses, they would each provide a return of .5% a piece : this provides a functional 1.5% gain in two Statistics for a three point expenditure, as opposed to a similar gain in only one Statistic for twice as many Skill Points. Basically, you're getting four times your money's worth for pursuing Final Row Passive Bonuses.

    The Results :

    Instead of a relatively unrewarding flat Statistic gain that never improves this change would provide a consistently scaling gain based directly on the combination of your Gear Stats and Skill Point Expenditures : in a sense, it wouldn't replace the Gear System at all and would actually require the character to continue gaining Gear in order to continue gaining functional Statistical Bonuses.

    This also seems a little more reasonable than prior versions of the same proposal which result in Stat inflation to a vast degree. Using this system, any given Statistic can only improve by a functional 15-20% and then only if a Character expends an exceeding amount of effort and time to achieve that end.

    At present it is possible to increase a Statistic such as Might or Precision by roughly 10% above the Character's Modded and Geared amount at 150 CR using Skill Points alone, *assuming that* you have 263 of them, but that amount will never improve beyond its current level because of the lack of Scaling.

    In short, I think this would appeal both to the hard-core Skill Point devotee and those who find them tedious for similar reasons : the proposal makes them more valuable and more approachable. It also won't cause the game to become horribly unbalanced because you choose not to participate in it.
    • Like x 12
  2. ErnieB Loyal Player

    How would this work with adds, if they will use their stats and not % when it comes to instances?
  3. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    This proposal doesn't apply to enemy adds, at all. This is a proposal for changing your Character's Skill Point Bonus from a flat amount to a scaling percentile. As far as I know, adds don't have Skill Points.
  4. ErnieB Loyal Player

    but when the change happens, devs will take stats and not CR into account, which is why I ask how will it affect them.
  5. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    I'm not sure you're asking the right question, because right now it seems like you're asking me what effect would this have on enemy or allied NPCs, which is none whatsoever. Whatever scaling the Developers apply to NPCs is currently up to them and will probably reflect a similar development curve in the NPC and PC population both in order to maintain that 'sense of power' mentioned in the Cr Differential Removal post.

    If you're asking 'what would this mean for the stats that currently exist on your character versus whatever they're turned into?' - since it's a percentile scale instead of a flat amount, then whatever your character's new stats are become improved by whatever points you have invested in that given bonus. If that means YOU do more damage, then it would have a functional affect at that point.
    • Like x 3
  6. ErnieB Loyal Player

    What I mean is, if this raises our stats % based, means they will go up more than what it is now, so how will this affacte the stats system when it takes control. Right now it's CR based, but when it's stat based wouldn't this have the potential to make us OP even on current content?
  7. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    Not really - if your current SP amount gives you the ability to increase your Might or Precision by 5% over your geared base, this would increase them by another 5 to 10 percent - tops, literally if you had 260 SP and spent them all toward that end alone. Since it's based on your Gear / Mod stats, at lower levels the increase is minimal and as you get to a higher CR the stats slowly, consistently improve.

    What this does is make SP visibly useful by improving the gains 'slightly' over a long term, as well as more approachable because it's a flat % bonus.

    Looking at the current SP Trees basically provokes a mild WTF from the first time user, because the bonus amounts are all different and presented as such it makes certain things seem more valuable than others - like how your Defense Bonus is 40/40, but the Domination is a 3 per point bonus : Defense is cute, but you *need* Dominance. And in a game where non-deliberate player confusion is an every other moment item, we can use some streamlining.
  8. Fies Committed Player

    Unless we know how stat-progression will work out in the future your calculations/numbers a most likely moot. Keep in mind that growth of stats will have to replace CR-scaling in the future and therefore will be raised at a higher rate. The 15-20% you are suggesting might very well outscale whole episodes worth of stats from gear.
    • Like x 2
  9. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    Well,

    A.) It's a start, and

    B.) It's actually not that much greater than what we have right now, it's just scaled to provide consistent functionality as stats change, up or down.
    • Like x 1
  10. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    Regardless of what final percentage gains per point end up being, percentage is a better long term solution to SP function because the gains you get from them - while still functionally a minimal portion of your character's stats - are still going to improve as your character's Gear and Mods do.

    Right now, SP are the only form of stat gain that do not improve over a course of time. This has already demonstrated itself as a problem in the community because they automatically devalue themselves as Gear and Mods become stronger - thus resulting in complaints and even ever-growing 'minimum necessary amounts'. This is demonstrated via means of the fact that they have already HAD to increase the base values on all Stat Bonuses in the Weapons Trees, within the last year alone.
    • Like x 1
  11. SSeid Committed Player

    While the idea is very intriguing and might I add long overdue for implementation. I believe that it can not happen before we get a generous stat flattening. There is absolutely no reason to have 11000 ( now .. in a few months it will be 12000 ) of anything when the same job can be done with 5000 or even less.
    Any change to SP needs to be preceded by stat flattening.
    The way I see it is that SP should account for 20%-25% of our total stats, mods 15%-20% and the rest 60% from gear. But with current stats it will be a headache to make up those numbers because if 11000 resto is the 60% you can imagine what our stats would look like when the other 40% comes.
  12. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    I agree with the assertion that 'more' of our current Character stats should come from SP and Mods (otherwise I wouldn't have written this) - that statement aside? Stat amounts, as they stand, aren't the real issue right now. It's the CR differential that makes everything seem so super-overkill and/or super weak.

    Current stats, honestly, are sort of ambiguous. Having 100 Restoration or 15000 is all relative to whatever we're currently fighting and whatever lays behind us. That's pretty much why I'm recommending this method for SP Bonus derivation : no matter where the stats actually end up, a percentile increase applies itself both evenly to the range of CR rankings (from a level 30 character all the way to our current 156 cap) and evenly to whatever our characters eventually end up having for stats.

    As for 'stat flattening', shrug -

    A.) Unsolicited Advice Says Stay Away From That Term - considering the last time the devs used it ;). Let's call it 'Stat Regularization' instead.

    B.) I think the recent announcement indicates a change of direction counter to stat deflation.

    C.) Stats are only important in that they are relative both to other characters (consistently scalable up and down the CR chain) and relative to the things we are killing (which should be nice to see again since 'Flat reduction of performance for CR differential' leads to terrible peaks and valleys in performance.)

    To be frank, numbers is numbers, and I'd rather not see another drastic rescaling occur just to adhere to some people's assumption that right now we have 'too little' or 'too much'. We should be keeping a 152 player's output against a 152 enemy the same at the end of that conversation, but that 152 player should be able to attack something above their CR without instantly getting pancaked because of the CR differential, and shouldn't be able to deal literally 1.062 million damage per second in content 100 CR below them.

    And yes - CR Differential is that bad. Stats alone wouldn't make up for that large of a disparity in output, unless we were talking CR 1 being 'where characters start now' and changing CR 150 stats to something in the low hundred thousands. I've seen my Mental character do single-hit seven digit damage using her finisher in low tier content : I've got a screen cap of a parser readout from the Lair of the Spectre solo...

    You ever seen 28,000,000 damage in a single shot?

    THAT'S what CR differential does to out stats right now. It's disgusting and waaaay out of hand.

    Before?

    Although yes, by taking my 114 into the Spectre's Lair to turn Eclipso into silly putty using the Spirit of Vengeance? I could still get mad overgeared damage, but it still stopped somewhere in the high five, low six digits. Now, I could take a 114 in there and get 14 million in that final fight from the Spectre's big one-shot.

    Still, glad to see someone can kind of see the direction this is coming from.
    • Like x 2
  13. ProfessorKanua Committed Player

    I don't want to be hurt in SP playing PvE for not wanting to play PvP and Legends PvE.
  14. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    I have 178 SP right now, I've gotten literally 4 of the LPVE feats and I'm pretty sure I got them by accident. I did do quite a bit of PVPing, but even that only accounts for 30 or so of my SP, so you can make quite a sufficient amount of SP without touching either man.
    • Like x 2
  15. ProfessorKanua Committed Player


    I'm around 165 now, probably can get to 175 if I buy all the feats I got on alts. I just don't see how you are ever supposed to catch up having not played since beta.
  16. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    Well, how long have you been here?
  17. SSeid Committed Player


    Yep, that is a good term! :D

    Mepps on that thread said something about big numbers making a comeback. So well .. yeah it will be fun.

    I have to say I am not completely on board with removing stat differential. I want aspects of it trashed, liek the CR cap of effectiveness, things like not being able to kill or survive attacks simply because of CR. But the general idea is not a bad one. Badly implemented but that is matter of working properly and we as players can have no effect on it.

    Yes it is horrible to see 160 million dmg from Spectre, over even 500k in low alerts. I never really understood how people with a certain sense of taste ( designers ) would allow for such visual atrocities to exist in a game.

    I believe I said it in that thread as well but I can not think of any change that revolves around effectiveness can happen without fixing SP and mods along with gear. Last 2 times they did it in this manner it miserably failed.

    So yes if anything is gonna happen they better implement a version of you proposal in it. Simply doing a Stat Regularization ;) will not to the trick, we desperately need a change in the way SP contribute to stats. ( mods as well.. I want to have a reason to finally finish that dreaded farming feat, I hate farming exos, 5 years and I still can't be bothered to do it :D )
    • Like x 1
  18. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    That's not supposed to sound like I'm calling you out either, so my apologies if it does. I will assume that the answer is 'not since Beta', since you've got 165 SP at present. Even if you have been, shrug... Not important really, at any rate...

    The idea behind this form of revamp for the SP system is to make it functionally accessible to both old-*** players that have been here forever and people who just started.

    For old-*** players, they want more bang for their buck - this is more direct bang, without literally just adding a 'every SP you spend above 200 gives you 100 extra Might, Prec and Health' to the board.

    For new players, well... Like I said, the SP trees are not very numerically consistent, you know? Not to mention that spending 10 SP to get combos and a crit bonus and ERMAGERD IS THAT EXTRA MIGHT?! - that's all great 'day one' stuff, but eventually you start to realize that 9 extra might, in the long run, doesn't mean squat. A potential extra 2-3%, with a little effort more, however... that keeps paying the bills.

    I think the other thing to consider is retroactive reincentivization of certain feats...
    • Like x 1
  19. Fies Committed Player

    A) +1 for effort then
    B) Now isnt the future. The ~10% are the result of CR-scaling+Stat-flattening- otherwise lower. We dont know what will be next yet (base-values and progression per EP)
  20. SSeid Committed Player

    The SP from PVP and LPVE are at best 30. So getting to 230 should not be a problem and those 30 missing SP will definitely not have a great impact on your performance.

    A friend of mine did something stupid and got rid of his account a while ago.. but it turns out he wanted to come back and play again. So he started from zero 4 weeks ago now he has 160 SP. Oh and yes he does have a life. Getting SP is not a problem.
    • Like x 1