Precision DPS

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by Careless, Oct 1, 2019.

  1. Kimone Devoted Player

    In that situation, specifically? Yeah, probably.

    In a standard Raid setting? No, Galea's not going to beat Galvana at the same level.

    She's also probably not beating my Nature character either, when they're at the same level, largely for the same reason - sustainable wide-area DOT is king, and Nature is King of Hybrid DOT cycle upkeep - set it, forget it, and go go go.

    Haven't run percentile comparisons on Gaea yet, but the straight numerics in Masquerade are pointing the same direction. Galea's also already not beating HL "Jump And Clap", but we'll see where that lands in the next week after I finish the current Vendor set.

    Electric's results are faster in small add groups using Hybrid, but the pure Might numbers in a large group setting are pretty much the same as the Hybrid numbers, better in some applications.

    Also, I thought situational variation was the entire point of having multiple powersets and playstyles. Electric is slow but once it's cycled up it cranks, and it keeps cranking. Pure precision is king in a couple of places, and Raid Boss Cluster **** isn't one of them.
  2. Pepito19 New Player

    I completely agree with you . or the developers lower the burst shot damage or all the dps of might that say goodbye to make SM because all players will ask for dps precision
  3. Hollow Gohan Well-Known Player

    I'm assuming you are on US server. May I have your in-game name so I can add you? At some point when we're both free we can test this out in an FI E run. I'm might as well, but I have a few prec friends. :)
  4. Twinks Level 30

    Yes, USPS. My name is the same name here: Twinks.
  5. Kimone Devoted Player

    I think I'm just going to start laughing when I see people crying about Precision DPS output too; I just ran with a matched CR Earth guy who doubled my output in the Event Alert Operation Instance using, and I quote, Jackhammer...

    AND. NOTHING. ELSE.

    You can't really complain about semi-decent output on Precision's top performing combos - two of which just got nerfed, along with the primary Precision artifact - when Might's top performer only has to jump around and do *ONE* move to blow that out of the water.

    Notice that I'm not in any other thread going "QQ Nerfs Erfs" either; but if you want to talk about performance from the standpoint of game balance while there's still things like that in the room? We need to address that first; the way to do that without nerfing everything to **** is to raise the tide, which still needs raised in a lot of areas.
    • Like x 1
  6. CrescentMoon Well-Known Player

    I think I'm just going to start laughing when I see people using a clamped and boosted stat instance to talk about balance.
    • Like x 2
  7. Kimone Devoted Player

    i'm already laughing - you might wanna recheck your comment regarding how Electricity splits, because I assure you, it does...
  8. Kimone Devoted Player

    also, not for nothing, but if you're insisting on level playing field for performance comparison, I don't think you can get much more level than an artificially enforced equalization... that's like, zero room for inconsistency due to stat variation...
  9. CrescentMoon Well-Known Player

    Put 100mil that Electricity splits like other powersets.
  10. CrescentMoon Well-Known Player

    And that's the point, actual raid situations at end game aren't in that situation. In those situations, depending on your stats, your artifacts that boost stats like Cog and VWD are useless because they can't go above the cap or if you're below the minimum, it buffs you regardless. You also more than likely don't have the controller power dump buff for the precision users, nor do you have skill point scaling from precision dps being a factor.
  11. Kimone Devoted Player


    In most cases, yes - yes it does. Out of 38 Abilities tested (I'm not doing Supercharges, Invisibility, or Form Changes today), only two Electric's Abilities split in a manner that is VASTLY different from 100 / 66 / 25 on a 1 / 3 / 8 target breakdown. Two of Mental's Abilities and virtually ALL of Nature's DOT cycle are affected by some form of deviation from that standard as well; so it's definitely not isolated.

    In some cases it actually performs, flatly, worse. In two cases, damage splitting doesn't occur because the move in question is not a multiple target move in the conventional sense : specifically, Tesla Ball and Arc Lightning. Although they make a decent addition to a loadout, they are - by themselves - not really all that imbalancing as Abilities go.

    Disregarding single target, Burst only moves, since they never split : baseline comparison to Mental and Nature percentages on a 1, 3, and 8 target test provided the following results - I'm listing the DOT specifically, since it's basically the heart of the discussion if you're talking about Electric.

    DOT Performance :

    (Ability Name : Single / Triple / Eight Target Percentiles, initial hit and tick damage, if different - special notes)

    Electrocute : 100 / 66 / 23 -
    Electrogenesis : *100 / 49 / 17 - *two direct targets take 100% damage, all the time, all surrounding targets take the reduced amount
    Voltaic Bolt : 100 / 65 / 25 -

    Psychic Shock : 100 / 66 / 25
    Psychic Prison : 100 / 66 / 25
    Mass Levitation : 100 / 65 / 25
    Phantom Flames : 100 / 65 / 24
    Pyrokinesis : 100 / 69 / 25

    Brair : 100, 100 / 65, 68, *100 / 24, 27, *31 - *if spread by Harvest / Thorn Burst, additional Poison targets take Split Damage at a higher percentage than the initial target
    Vine Lash : 100, 100 / - , 65, *100 / - , 25, *29 - *Vine Lash only does initial Damage to a single target; if spread by Harvest / Thorn Burst, additional Poison targets take Split Damage at a higher percentage than the initial target
    Serpent Call : 100 / 66, *100 / 25, *40 - *Harvest / Thorn Burst directly increases the Poison Damage caused by this move

    DOT in Electric is consistent with the DOT output percentiles of both Mental and baseline Nature; Electrogenesis is actively worse on any larger amount of targets. Horrific Visage displays virtually identical percentile breakdown and behaviors as Electrogenesis when used on multiple targets - even though it is, strictly speaking, not considered a DOT move, the damage split mechanism is pretty much the same.

    Nature actually gains damage percentages in a target split when Harvest / Thorn Burst are used because of how they affect surrounding targets. The target whose proc is copied, I assume, is not considered to be part of the number of other affected targets, thereby meaning that the initial target is suffering split at

    Burst is all largely the same stuff; the vast majority fall in the 100 / 65-70 / 24-27 percent split range.

    Attract, Terror Tendrils, and Shockwave all split "Weird" because they don't consistently hit all 8 targets, all the time, so it's impossible to get a solid read on what the actual 8 target split is on those Abilities. The three target split on each is consistent with the 66% range.

    Electroburst and Terror Tendrils are the only real single-hit Burst moves on this list that split significantly different on a confirmable 8 targets - Electroburst splits around 33% on eight targets, and Terror Tendrils splits at 40% on the first contact target, and 26% on subsequent targets, or basically also 33%.

    Arc Lightning is essentially just a Burst Move whose mechanism causes it to hit consecutively, as opposed to simultaneously : secondary hits *always* do 50% of the initial hit, regardless of how many consecutive secondary targets there are. It's fairly damaging because of this reason, and fairly limited by the 3 second cooldown, which keeps it from being directly spammable.

    Tesla Ball is about the only thing that could be considered to split "incorrectly" to a solidly numerically advantageous amount even though it's not actually a DOT move as such - it's more or less a local-area effect Pet that only exists for six seconds at a time. The damage "split" on it is very generous, considering that, but still.

    That's two Abilities, out of 15 damage dealing Abilities, that behave "differently" enough to be mentionworthy, and one other that actually DOES split, that actually splits a little high. In Mental's case, there's 2 out of fifteen that display "weird" attributes, including one with an IDENTICAL split value. and in Nature's case? Using Harvest actively decreases the deleterious effects of Damage Splitting.

    So sure, Tesla Ball hits a little hard. Everything else is pretty much in line with everything else.
  12. Kimone Devoted Player


    Yeah, I'm pretty sure the entire point of doing a baseline comparison is to have a level playing field.

    It's not to specifically overgear one side and then call it performance evaluation.

    You're literally the guy who was complaining about comparative output testing being meaningless unless all the stats on the weapons and sources in question were identical. Doesn't really line up with the thing you just said. At all.

    Not everything can come from the perspective of an exceedingly curated personal experience, that's why percentile evaluations exist in the first place : base amounts don't change the way a mathematical formula works. Multiplication and division still work the same - 10000 / 500 and 960 / 48 are still both 20.

    Also, flatly - 200% output difference using *one* move. Kinda says all it has to.
  13. Kimone Devoted Player

    And that's the limit of the amount of effort I'm putting into this today.
  14. CrescentMoon Well-Known Player

    That's comparing prec to prec where everything is constant -_- You're literally comparing prec with useless artifact passives to might with its artifact passives still useful. My VWD is useless. My Cog is useless. My AI is useless. What passive from might dps artifacts become useless? Oh yeah, just the tetra that nobody runs. Gemini % damage is not affected, supercharge regen is not affected, Solar amp extra damage is not affected. How you compare prec to prec isn't the same methodology you do for prec to might. That's why I have 3 differents setups for prec testing. Baseline baseline w/o artifacts etc. for people level'ing up as well as pvp conditions and people who decide to not clip. Basic clipping for more advanced pvp/casual pve rotation's of people who clip but don't get too crazy and that section is done with artifacts etc. to get a more realistic view of actual performance/how artifacts skew the tier list, and then maxed out clipping/animations cancels via other methods with artifacts etc. and that tier gets compared to might for balance purposes because it's max tier of prec vs. max tier of might. To compare prec to might at the baseline level is literally useless because Batuba and I believe it was Avair that decided to make prec dps have buffs out of the wazoo from different sources. They're not going to care about baseline prec vs. baseline might without realistic situations because that's not what the community complains about, that's not what SM or elite content is balanced around.

    P.S. - Percentiles increases only work when every other factor is kept constant. Which in your testing conditions, they aren't. You exlcuding artifacts and the other situations present in content is like changing the X conditional but trying to use the same conclusion.

    X Conditional (x>0)
    Might dps: 2x
    Prec dps: 1x
    ^ In this situation, for any value of X, Might dps's value will always be double what prec dps.

    X Conditional (x<=0)
    Might dps: 2x
    Prec dps: 1x
    ^ In this situation, Might & Prec dps can be equal at values of 0, and if a negative value is assigned to x, Prec dps becomes double what might dps is (perspectively)
  15. GoDeacs Well-Known Player

    How about channeled might powers can be mobile block-cancellable and jump cancellable? That needs to be addressed first, flurry will always have an advantage in terms of blocking and rolling without animation
    • Like x 1
  16. Balistical Ice Dedicated Player

    I agree.
  17. Kimone Devoted Player


    so that means we're making them Counterable again too, right?
  18. Balistical Ice Dedicated Player

    My channeled powers are already counterable lol. I want to be able to get out of danger quickly if Im in the middle of a channeled power.
    • Like x 1
  19. gemii Dedicated Player

    Yeah this should happen all channeled moves should be able to be cancelable (if you want to get out of it). It’s tough for certain powers lets says like a munitions in elite who have little room to block or roll out the way of one shots because their stuck in some long kind of drawn out animation that cannot be stopped until it’s finished.
  20. stärnbock Devoted Player

    if you look at the 6 seconds the effect of the VWD buff works, water is doing best,
    because you can activate your weapon buff three times in a row for 6 seconds each.

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