PftT vs Weapon Focus discrepancy?

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Delta2Four, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Delta2Four Active Player

    I don't have any sreenshots, statistics, or anything else like that, but I just want to bring this up:

    When stats revamp was new when age of justice was new too, I would parse 8k dps max with quantum using a precision melee build.
    My (quantum) PftT loadout would parse nowhere near that - around 4k to 5k dps, so I didn't bother trying to find a better loadout. I tried single target loadouts as well as group targets, and never came close to 8k dps.

    I came back on the test server recently, and now I parse 10k dps with the exact same precision build with CR 224 gear and mods.
    My PftT rotation parses 12k to 13k dps now, with the same gear, and might mods. I use different toons to account for base generator mods.
    I tried my PftT rotation with the CR 201 gear and less skill points (only 200 as opposed to 220 for my prec loadout), and was able to parse 10k, with no tactical mods or equipment mods

    To be honest I'm confused since my prec melee loadout used to dominate the PftT loadout, but now, the PftT loadout is beating my prec melee loadout.

    The concerning part is that a PftT rotation with cr 201 gear with no mods is competing with a *melee* weapon focus rotation with cr 224 gear and full equipment mods. Maybe the might curve and the precision curve may not be aligned with each other? The only change to quantum since the stats revamp was released was the damage increase on Lift and Singularity..
    • Like x 1
  2. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    There were several questionable updates to get to current state of gameplay.
    I think main concern was that Hybrid(weapon clipping) playstyle was problematic for the never ever ending pursuit of balance!

    At first Weapon and Hybrid focuses were outperforming Superpowered focus by a lot.
    This was mostly because weapon Taps were doing stupid high damage, so weapon Taps got nerfed, Hybrid got buffed with +10% Might and +5% support stats bonuses and Superpowered got overkilled with +10% Might and +10% Power. Weapon focus itself remained unchanged and at this point it was clear that Power spam overall will be the most versatile and convenient play style since one no longer would run out of power and can play at safe distance with it.

    The actual bad update was when standard weapon Hold attacks were nerfed in favor of buffing cross weapon combos. Thanks to that Hybrid and weapon clipping are dead atm.
    Thing is I like to use weapons but watch superpowers' animations so weapon clipping was perfect. I dont like watching full weapon attacks cause (for me personally) it looks primitive.

    Judging by the fact that 90% of players I see at EU servers use Powers spam variants makes me think that nobody likes how weapons work atm. Right now cross weapon combos are like disconnected from superpowers and players should get a mechanic to promote using powers between cross weapon combos with some benefits.

    Id like to see weapon Hold attacks buffed again, cross weapon combos nerfed and getting back the old mechanic and animation to get a 10-15% power cost reduction after completing a cross weapon combo!
    • Like x 2
  3. Delta2Four Active Player

    Personally, I don't agree since it takes an extra 10 skill points or so to unlock a weapon mastery combo. The WM combo should make up for the skill points required, and if not, they might as well go into precision stats.

    Anyway, that's not the main concern of this thread. Going back to what you said,
    That's true. but that still doesn't answer why a ranged pftt cr 201 / 200 sp loadout would beat a melee wm cr 224 / 220 sp rotation.

    My initial theory was that the precision dps curve is not aligned with the might dps curve. I'm thinking that might be because of the stat bonuses gained from the focuses.

    What i mean is that for people who play from the tray, their damage output is 100% from their powers, excluding any trinkets. Generally speaking, they would never see a white (precision) tick. So getting +10% might increases all of their damage output.

    However if you look at the weapons expert focus, anyone running with a weapon focus build usually has their DoT(s), weapon buff, and a robot sidekick, and powers to clip the WM. It's a given that the optimal weapon focus build would not have a bare-bones WM only rotation. That said, not all of the damage is based on the precision stat.

    Therefore, "+10% Total Weapon Damage" is not as beneficial to the Weapons Expert focus when compared to "+10% Might", for the Superpowered focus. So when DCUO continues to release higher tiers and stats continue to go upward, I'm sure that the superpowered focus will greatly overpower the weapons expert focus

    Hope a Dev sees and considers this
    • Like x 4
  4. Hatmaster New Player

    I'd like to see the Hybrid Playstyle be accepted for what it is: a fast-paced high skill threshold method of DPS. And I'd like to see those who go for it be rewarded, not punished as they are now.

    I think the Weapon Expert Playstyle should directly interact with Weapon Masteries in damage modifiers, but lose damage when abilities are use, thus incentivising -only- using weapons and weapon-related mechanics. I've been brainstorming a few, something along the lines of:

    -increase all base weapon power regeneration by 50% of their current percentages -OR- increase base weapon power regeneration by 15%-25%, reduce superpowered regen by 5%-10%** (for support roles, explained later) Weapon master would still suffer form
    the -10% weapon power regen after the base value.

    - The hold inputs gain significantly more damage than their tap counterparts, moreso than the balance of (whether through a direct buff, or combination of a slight tap-nerf and hold-buff. Nerfing taps would only make weapon balance worse), and gain a modest, but noticeable damage increase for longer combos. This will not affect Weapon Mastery combos

    -Weapon Mastery combos gain increased damage when in Weapon Master stance. This effect only applies if no Damaging superpowers* are active

    -The weapon buff increases weapon damage (like it does now). This buff will deactivate if a damaging superpower* is used

    -The weapon buff also causes your weapon attacks to generate extra supercharge (similar to the rate of an SC generator when casted constantly off cooldown)

    -The Weapon buff causes power restored to also transfer to pets (for the pet powers, since they wont be allowed to us their pet power-regens). This transfer will occur at the same percentage given by your attacks, not by the total restored off the attack (pets have much different power bars than us)

    -Supports Only: abilities used at the end of a weapon mastery combo (when they hit or at the end of the channel) will reduce the power
    cost of abilities**

    -Controllers Only: Using a Weapon Mastery combo on an enemy slightly increases damage dealt to the target. This effect stacks with each unique controllers mastery. Also debuffs could stack, but with serious diminishing returns. This is to make it so the 2nd controller isn't solely a 2nd power battery, while also not causing buff-stacking to be broken. ** (optional; may be unnecessary due to the shift back to weapons interacting with the controller buff)

    *Damaging superpowers could initially include only abilities of the powers and iconic powers; whether or not movement abilities could/would be allowed is up for debate. Also, if movement abilities are allowed they could have survivability aspects included to help melee DPS players survive (IE: immunity on Acrobatic's launching roll added back). This increase in survivability will reduce the risk of melee-DPSing, hence why a melee combo modifier increase wasn't suggested in this post

    **As it stands now, support roles benefit most from using superpowered, as it regens more than weapon master or hybrid, despite the stat bonuses to the support roles. But specing into superpowered as a support is also, well, very boring. All one does is sit and wait for their power bar to return, and then use their abilities. A few empty weapon attacks could be thrown here and there to build/sustain the combo meter and build up SC, but at the end of the day there's nothing about weapon that engages the supports. The increase in weapon regen, and re-introduction of power-saving combos for support roles would shift the balance from superpowered to it's intended proficiency, the hybrid playstyle.

    **As for controllers and overall power-regen balance, I introduced the direct damage buff to incentivize having more than one controller if need-be. The weapon buff from the controllers used to do this, but since weapons were used less, the benefit/saving grace of extra controllers when power was scarce was lost. The reintroduction of weapon-DPS may cause this to shift back to being viable, so the damage buff may not be needed
    • Like x 1
  5. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    Hybrid and weapons expert both need work... It's sad the easier playstyle is the dominant one.

    For weapons expert I'd add:
    Control resistance buff
    15% weapon mastery bonus
    Increased weapon power regen

    For hybrid I'd add:

    10% weapon buff
    Increased weapon regen
    Control resistance buff

    I'd also buff melee weapon combos just a little bit. That would help weapon play styles alot but not make them super overpowered
    • Like x 2
  6. Shark Dental Loyal Player

    The biggest difference is in the mastery you choose. Have you tried your precision build and rotation but using superpowered mastery? The bottom line is that they unified the might/power stats, so all that might stacked (coupled with the superpowered increased power generation) lets you use hard hitting powers far more often, where precision only buffs your weapon attacks which are severely underperforming at the moment. Unless you use one of two specific cross-weapon attacks, then you can keep up somewhat (bow smokebomb and dual-wield flurry if I remember correctly).

    There have been many threads begging the devs to buff weapon combos but they're either A. still working on it and want to release everything at once, or B. not convinced weapons are underperforming, which would be pretty absurd.
    • Like x 2
  7. stärnbock Loyal Player

    super powers are hitting stronger, because you need power for them to work with. however: since power replenishes itself, because of the power and might fusion, while the super powered playstyle stat is further enhancing power replenishing and giving more power to replenish even faster, there is basicly no risk of ever run out of power. so, the way in wich powers hit stronger than weapon attacks without the risk, leads to weapon attacks being a waste of time for no reason...

    QUESTION's: i am sure you did use the weapon buff... did you manage to allways hit the exactly right moment to reactivate your buff, clipping exactly the strongest attack that is not a WM with it? something you may be able to on sparing targets, but in actual fights, you need to be a god to do so, or using a TC mod to shorten your cooldown by 10%, wich helps, but making it impossible for you to clip other 12 second coolsdown powers with your weapon combo. or did you allways finished your ongoing combo with your WM before reactivating the buff? then, did you use the two precission based artefacts? one gives you a buff, but only after a WM, the other one gives you a buff, but only when countering enemy targets. of course: that is something you don't get on sparing targets... while might and power based artefacts buff you like all the time... also: do you keep the combo counter allways above 9, for your neck mod to work and giving you the buff? or did you parse with your combo counter at zero, when starting? noteworthy: do you test DPS with or without a troll, wich gives you a 10% precision buff aswell? because thats what you need to consider in alert versus raid situations and that is also why you should keep in mind to allways be on top with your power pool, in comparison to the rest of your team...

    in short: weapon damage focused playstyles can keep up if you use the right combo of the right weapon at the right time, while also keeping all of those five buffs running at the same time and making them work again as fast as possible in situations where you loose them (wich can happen if the boss jumps aroud like johnny quick, or you need to stay in block for a moment while skull attacks for example). then, there is even more buffs when thinking on the trinket, consumables and supply drops to name them. reaplying these may **** with your other 5 buffs when reaplying... while super powers only need to press 12345 of course ^^'
    i agree to all what she sayd, just wanted to ad that in my oppinion the playstyle stats would need different adjustments to make weapons worth it... those would either be to taking away the might buffs from hybrid and super powered (wich would make ppl go crazy, if you take that away from them), while hybrid would receive a precision buff instead and WE gains CC resistance... or: giving hybrid a precision buff additionally while WE gains CC imunity while attacking with weapon combos... either way: the playstyle stats need changes, no matter how you do it: ppl will complain anyways ^^'
    • Like x 1
  8. stärnbock Loyal Player

    this ^ is another possibility... noteworthy: the right way to adjust the playstyle stats is key to achieve balance.
    however: it is hard to tell, wich is the best way to do so and how much exactly is needed to not overkill again.
    what makes it hard to predict is the way in wich weapons are used in specific situations the more you focus.
  9. stärnbock Loyal Player

    Xactly: there are two weapon combos, one for two seperate weapons, wich are able to compete. everything else... well, sadly ^^'
    no word on anything since the revamp happened, even though i think that in the end, it was rushed out (despite devs said they would take all the time it takes to do), but that is just my oppinion and may be totally off. i just doubt it IMHO
    • Like x 1
  10. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Everything else aside, just a quick looks at EU servers tells enough.
    95% of DPS are using Might based Superpowered builds. Im not saying 100% just not to be too dramatic but I actually havent seen any type of Weapon based DPS in months in game.

    Weapons require too many components to become viable and even if u focus all choices at Precision is still a struggle to keep up in content. Ive went crazy at my Sorc with weapon builds and at the end just switched to Celestial for convenience.

    I think Weapon buff should be just around 10% and the rest 20% should be transferred:
    -10% precision buff for Weapon focus and Hybrid and
    -10% base (innate) weapon damage increase.

    That way people can would be able to deal good damage with weapons without speccing so many different things. Superpowered compared are almost straight OP , one does not need to spec so many things to deal decent Might damage.
  11. Alrighty Then Dedicated Player

    Hate to say it but; perhaps weapons need a cooldown period like powers do.
    They can thus hit harder; but can't be spammed.
  12. iMeMoriezZ Well-Known Player

    Lol you must want the game to fall apart
    • Like x 2
  13. lordexecution365 Dedicated Player

    I probably shouldn't ask this because it may get a misleading answer.

    From the mention that you don't like the weapon attacks, could that be the underlying reason why most don't like weapon attacks in the current form so they want pftt to be stronger?

    Seems to me that having weapons on pat with superpower should be ideal, but the Dev's hesitated due to complaints on being forced to use hybrid or weapons and should have left at least partly take it as it was and brought superpower up-to where it is now.
    • Like x 1
  14. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    My fav ways of playing are weapon clipping and combos, Im even one of the few that liked Weapon maste
    ry upon release.
    • Like x 1
  15. Gamma Lantern Well-Known Player

    If weapons become equally viable as PFtT, there would be no FOTM powers to exploit and sell power change I wouldn't hold my breath.
    • Like x 1
  16. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    This is very true. Classic weapon clipping works well with DoTs and normal quick damage abilities so it could have been like a saving balloon for powersets like Nature, Electric, Quantum, Mental, Gadget and Sorcery which dont have powerful PftT abilities like combos and channeled superpowers but are quicker.
    • Like x 1
  17. Rejoicer1 Well-Known Player

    I woudn't nerf the superpower PFFT [Why mess up other people who are having fun?], but would rather enhance the WE stance and weapons as follows:

    1. Make the higher level weapon attacks do the same DPS for a WE who has purchased mastery in the weapon as a cross weapon attack so that people can actually be experts IN A WEAPON and enjoy it rather than having to go to another weapon you don't want to use. (personally I like Staff and really don't see my character suddenly pulling out a machine gun....)

    2. Add a +5% additional bonus above what is currently given to weapon attacks with a weapon you have mastery in.

    3. Add the option to purchase with SP one of the following extra options for weapons which are ONLY available to weapon experts (Which makes sense).

    [To avoid OP and add more flavor to different builds and characters you can only purchase one of the options for a given weapon. In the case of a cross weapon attack each weapon could have a different option, but each option would only apply to the portion of the damage due to that weapon]

    a. Weakness Sense: 10% defense debuff to target only for your weapon attacks
    b. Super Accurate: +15% weapon crit chance for your weapon
    c. Hard Hitting: +15% weapon crit damage bonus for your weapon
    d. Super Strong: +10% damage bonus for your weapon
    • Like x 1
  18. VioletSorceress Committed Player

    Changes are needed in so many directions.
    Taps and Cross weapon combos are too strong compared to normal Hold weapon attacks. The importance of Weapon buff superpower and Weapon expert need to be lowered a bit and weapons' base damage increased. WE's passive power regen being penalized with -25% combined with the fact that Cross Weapon combos dont give any active power regen back is too restrictive. WE dont have extra stats buff beside Precision(WeaponDPS).

    The most annoying thing is that the way things are , Weapon expert cant be useful in any way for support roles unlike Hybrid and Superpowered.
    Please remove the curse so non combo based support roles could deal some weapon damage and still be productive as support.

    The main thing separating DCUO from other games is clipping and was jump canceling. Game will continue to lose players until those are brought back as a main highlight of gameplay. How hard is it to realize that ?
    • Like x 2
  19. Delta2Four Active Player

    Ok first of all this post is about addressing the balance between Weapons Expert Focus and Superpowers Focus. They're clearly not in sync with each other. This is for devs to see and address and think about, not for us to suggest how play styles should change. It's in the numbers.

    So in response to some comments here,

    - WM combos should still deal the most damage in a WM rotation. It takes at least 10 SP to get one WM combo, and that's a lot. an extra 8 if you want the other WM combo, which lets you be more flexible in the field, especially when bosses like to jump across the room.
    - WE focus should not be *just* weapons only. Every character has their own power and their power should at least assist the rotation in some way. Even if it's minimal.
    - I'm not sure why weapons would have a cooldown
    - I hope FOTM isn't the reason why the superpowers focus is a lot better than WE / Hybrid

    When I was testing:
    - For testing my prec loadout, I did use the WE focus. My goal was to make a *Weapons Expert* focused build - not a hybrid build. I used the Cog of Mageddon and either the Legionnaire's Sparring AI or Scrap of the Soul Cloak.
    - I did not use a troll to test in both builds. Although it might make a difference, it shouldn't. If it does, then clearly one focus is superior, especially when it comes to solos or duos, or maybe even open world bosses.
    - My weapon buff was up pretty much 100% of the time. If i remember correctly, I used Bow > Spinning punch x2 (or 3) then Bow > Smokebomb, and reapplied dot + weapon buff I always clipped the WM with a power, whether it was just a damaging power or the dot/weapon buff.
    - My precision loadout (aside from those 2) were Einstein's ray / Lift depending on if I'm testing solo target or a group, Quantum tunneling (shield), venom, and robot sidekick.

    Superpowered focus requires no skill and is a simple 1-2-3-4-5 rotation. All sp goes into crits and might, and then wherever else it may be. It's the most straightforward role and play style, yet it's the most common.. the WE / Hybrid takes thought and skill, I'd think it should be clearly on par with the superpowered focus
    • Like x 2
  20. The Game Well-Known Player

    there will never be a balance.

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