Discussion in 'Oracle’s Database (Guides)' started by OMAAR, Mar 2, 2013.
Nevertheless for your peace of mind I will retest numbers.
No no lol. CTSV is damage modifier. Take brawling why does one hit does x amount of damage and uppercut does y amount of damage when your weapon and precision are constant.
We still need to get on the same page with CCM. I think it's irrelevant for the above reasons I posted. If I'm wrong then please correct me.
Is base damage the average damage a COMBO does over 2hours or is the the average damage a tap melee does over 2 hours?
I expect more from you omaar, it's really quite sad and I pity any ps3 player that resorts to such generalizations and people like that would never last on the pc.
As for the topic, its not just numbers its also flow. Spin Chop is a much more fluid attack that works much better then Fully. Despite the fact that Spin Chops numbers are heavily dependent on its crits as the gap between a regular spin chop and one that crits is vast. Since the recent change to Spin Chop flurry may have past it in potential damage. I wouldn't doubt that if you stacked 2 gadgets dps against eachother and 1 could only use spin chop and 1 flurry the results would favor spin chop. These are the tests that matter more, actual in the field testing "application vs theory" sometimes pure math doesn't do anything justice.
The Flurry vs Spin Chop comparison is wrong. A 2tap hold does NOT have the same cliptime as a 3tap hold of the same weapon.
Actual correct weapon data can be found in this thread:
Base damage. Say you do spin chop for two hours on a watchtower dummy.
You will find high and low numbers. Take the sum of the two and devide by two for average damage.
Now for dps you take the cumulative number ( damage of pressing melee once+damage of pressing melee the second time +damage of spin chop ) and divide that by 1.1.
I'm not saying macros are bad, at world of warcraft I used to top damages with just tapping the number once and sitting back.
I said macros because someone will say "I do this MUCH faster on PC". I am not down looking and trust me I would be using macros as well. Plus the fact that the game is much more fluid on the PC.
Now, does anyone know if spinchop hits in a cone or 360 degrees.
Im not even sure Ps3 players even know what using macros is like in this game. If your using macros and get knocked by an npc or an attack etc which are very abundant in this game you just sit still for a couple seconds until you restart the macro if your using it for dps purposes. Its quite noticeable, im not saying dpsers haven't used it on pc I know quite a bunch that have tried it been banned and now pretty much had to change their names because of the backlash the community gave them.
Ahh, it's because in your equation on the first post 'Damage per hit=(weapon dps +precision/10)xCTSV you don't actually divide by the number of hits. You should probably adjust that name. Typically people have called the Damage multipliers the number that explains how much more DPS a combo does over the base attack (that would typically do 1.0x DPS). The CTSV allows you to calculate differences between various precision and DPS values but does not factor in time. I think that would be the more pertinent value (Edit. I note you mention this in a post above). Especially given the name you've chosen.
@OP Nice guide, but it seems more useful as it stands for the less experienced players or the 50SP, full T4 crowd. Here are some things I would be interested in as someone who has played since launch, have multiple toons over 100SP, and have DPS'd almost every role as well as played every role.
First, quantify for us how you get the time it takes to do the move. This is most interesting for fine tuning the combos we use and the difference between the hard hitting combos of the different weapon sets. Speed is the key, and it takes some real effort to really track the speed of each weapon attack and combo. Using a DVR playback would be ideal. If you do so, say so.
Second, I would be interested in seeing exactly how each weapon combo splits with each weapon set. 1-5 NPC's and then 5+ would be a great table to check out. This also will take some additional effort but would be much more worth it.
Lastly, a section covering weapon glitches you come up with or wild discrepancies that we ca bounce off Mepps and Tunso would be excellent. Weapon balance should be the easiest thing to accomplish in the game and no reason we can't help the devs get there. I don't mean make every weapon the same but I do mean to balance out the weapons for speed, damage, and splits. One weapon, say brawling should be slower but the reward damage should be higher, and the splits should put it on par with a faster melee weapon like one handed which should be fast, but have less damage and splits be good enough to keep it at an average.
That brings me to the best stat you can provide. Like baseballs stats such as OPS, whip, etc...it would be great to have a stat that rates a weapon based on the combos that are rated accounting for damage, speed, and splits (splits in several categories to make it easier - 1-2 NPC's, 3-5 NPC's, and 5+ NPC's). That would really be awesome and much more useful application of math in MMO's than simply telling us the damage combos we can already see. It takes running a couple of duos with a weapon to get a pretty good feel for which combos do the most damage and are relatively faster to complete.
Thanks for the guides, and I look forward to your incorporation of some of the data I have suggested.
I'm pretty sure his point was that you can dial in a macro to be optimal that simply a human can't do. That said, he needs to practice more because I don't think his timing numbers are correct!
I disagree on the fluidity. I also disagree on the dependency on crits, they both rely on crits equally. Whichever has the highest DPS will benefit the most from the crit unless there is an artificial cap.
As for application vs theory, of course field testing is crucial, but theory is a great starting point. If you look at some of the top DPS moves on the other thread you'd quickly realize that spamming something like Power discharge every 0.5 seconds simply isn't going to be functional, nor very fun!
I for one appreciate the work these and other players put into testing stuff. It gives me a chance to take it to the practice dummies and figure out which might work best for me.
The only way I found to properly test that on the PS3 is to hook up a USB development board up to the PS3 with firmware emulating a 3rd part controller on it. Then you can finetune combo timings to te millisecond and see when it "breaks".
First post on page 3 he states it. I agree, he should explain that in original post. He uses his ipad to record it then times it in Pinnacle Studio.
This would be a major pain in the buttocks. Two NPCs are doable but even that is a chore. 3+ and forget about it. You'd have to run around playing tag and rounding up the correct number of NPCs and then try to get the combo off, all while filming it since we can't scroll back on the combat tab.
Brawling does very good numbers for almost all of its combos. The ranged attack is lacking though compared to some other powers.
Lets keep this rolling, lots of good ideas here.
Where do you find the time?
I'm a defense contractor. Usually I work 3-4 month's a year.
Plus I've injured my back at the gym so I can't move much
while this is very useful information, the is a gaping hole that many people dont understand about combat and has still not clearly been addressed. due to your track record with guides, i feel you will appreciate this information and possibly even make a guide on it. ill send you it in a pm.
EDIT: also i happen to believe all weapon types give the same damage over time as long as the last hold melee combo is finished. it just varies in at what point in the combo it is dealt and in how many hits. for example two hands hold melee combo ends with a 4th hold or 5th hold(cant remember, its been a while since i used it) while weapons like martial arts last hit in the combo is 7 i believe. but due to martial arts being faster it is achieved in the same time. and while two hand generally doubles each hit, martial arts deals fast low damage hits and ends with a massive damage hold melee hit.
EDIT #2: to prove this plug in the numbers after resetting skill points, and only investing in combos not innates. if you bought weapons expert, tactical genius or both in the iconic powers tree you will need to reset powers as well. to make it more even more visable remove every thing except your weapon.
EDIT #3: while i do applaud this thread, this experiment is being done without a control group. to rectify this make the time elapsed standard, say 60 seconds/ 1 minute. and change the last column to damage per minute.
EDIT #4: i would also suggest removing the second to last column entirely due to all of them being just cumulative divided by 2 except spins which are not categorized as two hits while they can be accessed in 2 hits. theres a reason spins are all on the right and not part of the direct combo line. i also suggest you dont even try to understand the damage per second on spins due to the sheer difficulty it will be. but if you plug all this in you should find the that damage per minute is roughly 60 times what the weapon says. of course, as with all experiments there are possible errors in measuring tools and judgement.
EDIT #5(last one, i think): im not sure if hit counter plays a part in damage per second, but if it does it will make it even more difficult due to sparring partners resetting it every so often. to get around this you could make the time elapsed say 10 or 15 seconds, all that matters is that one full melee weapon combo is completed on the slowest weapon type.
UPDATE to EDIT #5(now im even hoping this is the last change i make): another method of testing this would be using the hit counter tiers in place of the time elapsed. that would be the best way in my opinion, due to all weapon types should reach the tier threshold at the same time due to varying speeds. still you must use the same line of combos in the weapon skill tree. if you are going to do this, add up the cumulative damage at each threshold. it will be more difficult due to the number of hits some weapon types divide their damage across but should be more accurate. you most likely are using video capture tools already, but for this method it is not optional.
still these are the type of threads i enjoy discussing.
Actually, I never said Spin Chop had more DPS than Flurry. Just spamming these two moves without clipping will give you the same DPS. The column on the chart that says "Clipped DPS" is misleading, and I tried to explain it before and after my charts. You can NOT compare DPS of clipped moves without also considering what is used to clip. The damage and time of the clipping power, trinket, etc will influence the overall DPS and you can't just magically wave it away. I have examples in my thread, but I'll write a simple one here:
Move A with 75 damage, 0.5 sec clipped time.
Move B with 300 damage, 3 sec clipped time.
Both moves clipped with a power that does 100 damage and takes 2 sec.
Clipped DPS of Move A = 75/0.5 = 150 DPS
Clipped DPS of Move B = 300/3 = 100 DPS
Without considering the clipping power, you can see that Move A is better.
But now factor in the clipping power, taking actual DPS = (move damage + power damage) / (move time + power time)
Actual DPS of Move A = (75 + 100) / (0.5 + 2) = 70 DPS
Actual DPS of Move B = (300 + 100) / (3 + 2) = 80 DPS
But actually.. it's not. At least clipped with this power.
So in order to find out which move is better clipped, you have to look at it on a case by case basis, considering each combination of move + clipping power/soda/whatever. One move won't always be "best". Good news for fotm haters... Spin Chop isn't always the be-all, end-all weapon combo. Weapons are a lot more balanced than people think.
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