My problem with the new characters models/redesings

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by JosEl, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. Miss Adora Loyal Player

    I like Huntress top and hair compare to the old model, she looks better. Ivy look horrible. Only 2 things I don't like about Harley is the voice, and the knee pads, it makes it look so out of place and awkward. The Lex model from Earth 3 looks better then the current model of Lex. Canary looks ok, I don't mind her, Catwoman looks good too. Was hoping to get an actual Oracle model in game. I want that Lobo mustache for villains. He looks good. Jimmy Oleson looks good. I want Lois Lane's hair.
  2. dcuotoo Well-Known Player

    I think the BOP models look nice..frankly more realistic...esp huntress...I like jimmy being in the content and I think they did a great job in how hes shown...they could have given him a bottle of gingold...but oh well...
  3. JosEl Well-Known Player

    Look, I'll put it simple alright? Here are my priblems:
    A) most of the new designs looks like they belong to different styles. In, maybe a clarer way to put it, one new model looks like it's drawn by one person and then another looks like it's someone else's drawing style. Noticeable when you compare Black Canary and Poison Ivy's new models.
    B) Some of the new designs don't fit the previous content these characters have been in, in the game, something the old ones did. The new Poison Ivy, even tho she looks like she would go out with the sirens, she doesn't looks like she'd capture Robin, or go against Batman. Samewise, the new Posion Ivy doesn't look like she would go against Doomsday on Smallville. That's what I leant with the fact that the old models fitted better in the multiple parts of the content.
    C) Some of this new models fail to capture the easence of the character, this is specially sad considering the old ones did. For instance the new Wonder Woman doesn't feel like Wonder Woman, shee feels like a random warrior cosplaying WW. The new Dr. Fate doesn't look mythical, the old one with the corget, the waist thing and the more greek/roman-esque look did, the new one, insted, has a flexsuit with generic lines, that had it veen color swapped to any other character's color schemes you wouldn't say it's Dr. Fate. The only thing that talls ylu it's Dr. Fate is the helmet, and even that looks more like a laser cut piece of modern armor rather than an ancient mythical helmet.
    That's it. Some modles are good, but for the most part, they fail to meet the level the old ones had.
    • Like x 1
  4. 9001BPM Steadfast Player

    It’s a case of taking the rough and the smooth for me. Some characters I hated the original models and love the new ones, and vice versa.

    In general I think the new ones have much better costumes, but are a bit too “realistic” in shape/face. That’s just my opinion though, I’m not stating that as a fact.
  5. Crn Well-Known Player

    I like the direction, fix all the NPCs
  6. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    Design style and drawing style are not the same thing.

    Diversity in design is not a bad thing.
    There is no Edna Mode doing tailor work for every single character.
    Extending differences between costumes beyond colour schemes and decorations can provide characters more individuality.
    You may prefer bodysuits that highlight physical perfection but that is not a necessary component of this genre.

    Old and new art have different signatures to them, so the art would clash when they're placed side by side.
    In the case of your two examples, Ivy is an old sculpt with new paint while Canary is new in both regards, so that may explain how you felt there are discrepancies between them.

    Also, you might just be too used to Jim Lee's same face syndrome.

    The character designs are made for the prime iteration of the character.
    You may feel like the new design deviates wildly from the older model, but the character is still not tailored to a specific universe nor storyline.

    Poison Ivy is such a weird example for you to use here.
    She may have a more human skin tone here, but that's never stopped her from being an antagonist to the Bat-family before, just look at her first comic book appearances and the Cycle of life and death series.
    When has she even go up against Doomsday in this game anyway?

    I posit that Wondy is a good illustration of how the newer design makes her fits better in various aspects of the DC universe.
    Characters from Amazon Fury episodes, be them gods or monsters, Amazons or animated statues, features Hellenistic elements pretty prominently. Wonder Woman's bathing suit always felt like an outsider to these content because it featured none of it.
    Her new armour looks like it belongs in a Greek epic, yet still retains some modern showboat-y elements like the overall skimpiness and inscribed Ws.
    The new outfit also makes it easy to recognise "Amazonian warrior princess teaching Man's world to loving submission" at first glance than the star-spangled hot pants.

    The new designs also factor in character traits that were included after the 2000s, like Black Canary is now a rock star so her makeup and jacket reflects that.
    It might also be that the old environment assets don't mesh with the new character models.

    Again, this does not mean you have to like the new models, but they do the job of conveying the person wearing them.

    Most of the elements from their iconic designs are retained in the new models, but more importantly
    what you deem "essential" from the old designs are just aesthetics preference, not an objective golden rule.

    I have specifically responded to your reasons for disliking Wonder Woman and Doctor Fate's new design, yet here you simply regurgitate your previous argument, not a hint of you digesting my words.
    You have also failed to provide an answer when I challenge your notion of "prime look and feel" with certain characters' contradictory iconography design.

    I think this comment nails a big issue I have with the OP.

    You can subjectively prefer the aesthetic of the old models.
    You can't objectively determine that the new art direction is "not right" because of your feelings.
  7. JosEl Well-Known Player

    I put drawing style as a way to make sure it was clear what I mean by incosistent, as in they look like theh belong to different (somewhat similar) games. What I mean is that they don't look like they fit within the same specific universe.

    But the new models are tailored to the specific storyline of BoP. Not all the new models added in the las couple years are, but some are indeed heavily tailored for the specific story of the episode.

    Shoe, I meant Black Canary when talking about Doomsday.
    It's not about the skin color, but rather about the fact that she no longer looks like a foe. She looks more like a damsel in distress for Harley to rescue than the dangerous Poison Ivy, well known Batman villain.

    When it comes to Wonder Woman, my issue/complain is that she doesn't feel like Wonder Woman, but rather like a regular warrior dressed as WW (mostly the face).

    I'm not trying to say that my words are the objective truth, and that's not the way I wanted to express myself, of course it's my opinion, that I somewhat reinforce with some of my design and illustration background. Alongside the years spent playing the game.
  8. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    Now this point is even more bewildering to me.
    You're not pointing difference between different art teams but from the same one.

    The designs are not specifically tailored to BoP.
    They are the (for the most part) latest canon designs for the mainstream version of these characters.
    Speaking of the mainstream:

    Canary. Really?

    Her old DCUO look is from this comic (sans the mask).
    Why are you certain it's from this particular series you ask?
    Because of the choice of gloves, which is rarely paired with her classic duds.
    Also, it's drawn by Jim Lee. During the 2000s.

    Why does it matter?
    This is from an alternate universe.
    When she was a bartender and only deals with street-level incidents.
    Hardly a canary capable of being anywhere near Doomsday at all.

    [IMG]

    By contrast, the look you think is BoP-exclusive is featured prominently in both the Green Arrow and Justice League of America titles:

    [IMG] [IMG]

    Here is a picture of her classic look against other Batman rogues, and the company seems pretty comfortable.
    Her in-game look is just an updated version of her debut design, wrapped around by Amanda Conner-inspired vines.
    She has always looked like a pin-up girl since she's reportedly inspired by Bettie Page.
    You'll need to give a more detailed analysis on why you think her new look "doesn't look like a foe".

    [IMG]

    Again with the vague "feel like".
    Also, face? For all the drastic changes to her design, you think the face is what makes her "generic"?

    You have first framed the art department at being "not in the right direction", then present your arguments with an objective tone (with a hint of smugness). This line strikes me as the worse offender:

    "That's what I leant with the fact that the old models fitted better in the multiple parts of the content."

    It's not a fact, which is a word you quite like using right before a subjective statement, and from my observation, not based on (in a comic book sense of) reality.

    It's just one issue I have with you here and frankly, I can brush that aside.
    I can take that we have differing opinions, even though from my observation you have very supportive evidence for your case.
    Then you give me this:

    "[...] reinforce with some of my design and illustration background."

    [IMG]

    As someone who has studied Fashion and Art & Design, this statement plunged my disappointment to earth-shattering levels.

    1. You have demonstrated very little capability at art analyzation.
    The best you have done is "some generic lines to break the even-ness of it."
    Why do you think the faces have gone more cartoonish? Brushing techniques? Saturation of colour? The size of facial features?
    What part of the design makes them different? Have they changed the head-to-body ratio? The change in silhouette? The use of lines and curves?
    You didn't write about these characteristics to support your statements. Instead, you use a lot of comparisons.
    "belong to a game like Fortnite" "like a character from a Sims game" "closer to being a modern armor helmet"
    You have not used any type of description to demonstrate why they look like each other.
    There is nothing to support how the comparison makes the new models look outlandish in your opinion.

    2. There is an abundance of "look" and "feel" not backed up by critique of any substance.
    "doesn't look like the character at all" "the whole "feel" the model gives" "looks like it belongs to a different game"
    Again, why do they give such an impression to you? Where is the "more than the sums of the parts" part?

    3. You have shown to be incapable of utilizing visual evidence, neither posting them or responding to what I provided.
    For one, I have given you mounting evidence of how the designs you insisted transcends time is very, VERY 2000s.
    I have also pinpointed the elements with my counter-arguments.
    You have either quietly dropped this point or responded with "if you compare [...]" followed by little to no analysis.
    Reading into historical context is a part of the study of arts.
    There are plenty of comic panels and screen captures that are available on the web or take in-game, yet it seems I am the one doing all the work in this aspect.
    For all the "looks&feels", it reads to me that these emotions stem not from the comic or games, but your imagination.

    This conversation about design can be a complex one and a lot of nuances can be found, yet even when I am trying so ******* hard to boil it down to simple terms and neglect the entanglement with other areas of art, you still show no signs of engagement other than parroting what you initially feel. Well, I feel like casting pearls before swine!
    • Like x 1
  9. JosEl Well-Known Player

    Imma wrap this up cause I'm getting tired of this. All I wanted to say is that I didn't like some of the new redisigns. I feel like some of them fitted in this specific universe and some of them may fit better in a different universe. Some I like, some I don't. They're great models, but I can't see some of them working for the universe the game is set (which, of course, it's an alternate universe, like every game, tv-show, movies and anything pre-reboot in comics.). You may like them, I don't. Of course it's subjective, still, I'm free to express my discontent with the way these are.
    Catastrophic Repercution mentioned I said something as a 'fact', that's just the expression that came to mind while writting said post. English isn't my firat languaje, and, even though I'm quite good at it, there are some times I can't seem to remember any vocabulary that may be apropiate, and so I go with whathever pops into my mind. I don't give these posts more than the couple minutes it takes me to write them.
    • Like x 1
  10. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    For the record, I have never expressed my personal opinion on these models, so let me tell you some right now:

    I wish Wonder Woman's chest insignia is as thick as her belt, the ratio between them never felt right to me, and the scabbard felt excessive. Jimmy Olsen's new lips don't look natural to me, the use of colour contrast to force a shape out of it makes it hideous to look at when viewed up close. Zatanna's bosom feels out of proportion to the rest of her body, which is probably inherited from the previous model.

    I also wish they went for these designs instead of what is in-game: Black Canary's all-black stage costume from her solo DC You title by Annie Wu, Starfire's Redesign in Justice League Odyssey by Stjepan Šejić, Superman's tights (though that is a case of unfortunate timing) and Aquaman's long hair and beard.

    As you can see, I am not always behind the new direction either.

    The reason I went after you for so long is that your preconception on "what the DC Universe should look like" is demonstrably false and has clouded your judgement, furthermore, you have refused to look at evidence that proves otherwise when I provided comic book sources. Opposing opinions is not something I would care about, but you misrepresenting the comics and the game's art direction really provoke my ire. That's why I was willing to do so much research and write long and detailed rebuttals, and even after spending at least half an hour to write them I still find my posts full of flaws. I do not want to blindly defend the devs, and while the following is not an ideal I can always uphold, I do believe it's important to give credit where credit's due and give substantive feedback when appropriate.

    What pushed me to disgust is when you claim to use your "design and illustration background" when you have done very little proper examination and critical thinking, and now "English isn't my first language" to evade the rest of my criticism against you. English isn't my mother tongue too JosEl, and I did say I can brush wording issues aside, it still doesn't explain how you sweep the art team under the rug with so little effort.

    Should you ever want to touch on this topic again I am more than ready to go through with you, though I hope you put more thought and effort next time around. 安。
  11. willflynne 10000 Post Club


    DC approved them, though, for this game in particular. They are the ultimate arbiter for what does and doesn't fit for a particular depiction of the DC universe. It kind of renders anyone's perspective of whether or not it fits a moot point. You're right, you don't have to like the designs, but DC gave them the okay so at the end of the day they fit.

    It's not like we've suddenly had a bunch of the character designs for the Injustice fighting games used for the new character models, as most (if not all) character refreshes have come straight from current/recent comic looks.
    • Like x 1
  12. SuperSpirit Level 30

    wow its like you didnt read that this is a different universe which means the small things are gonna be different, but i agree with JosEl this game kinda makes changes to suit itself throu its wallet.
  13. MrStoob Well-Known Player

    I remember when first I did the Titans duo content. The models and textures were all over the place. Damian was crisp and new looking, while Starfire and Donna Troy were looking more they were designed in early 2000s. Recently we got the new Donna Troy, and while I do like her new look, it no longer matches her voice.

    It's mainly the inconsistency of quality and design that bothers me, rather than which era DB should be aiming for.
  14. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    What is this necro about?
    Not sure what your point is either, are you saying DCUO doesn't need to adhere to the comics 100%? I'd agree with that
    I've forgotten this thread other than it's over...If you want to start a new argument with me on this state your case, I just don't know what you're going about here.
    Oh, better consistency is appreciated, though I doubt all issues can be dealt with when they're still trying to finish the overhaul.
    Legends models and different voice actors (Huntress being the most egregious) do annoy me though.
  15. Frixos New Player


    100% agree. I loved the Jim Lee design feel to the game when it first released.

    I'm not really following modern DC comics but since the game started out as Jim Lee inspired art style, i would have preferred keeping it that way. Less work for the team too. Would have saved them time having to go back and change every model.

    You can't even talk to the Trinity in the Watchtower anymore.

    That said, if they change the Legends game modes models, I'll just stop playing the game altogether.
  16. Eve YouTuber

    I believe Mepps said Legends characters will stay the same - since we "earned" them this way.
    • Like x 1
  17. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    That's great news to me! I'm still appalled at the redesign of Cheetah and Wonder Woman still looks like Sylvester Stallone in a wig to me.
    • Like x 3
  18. Pingvinozavr Dedicated Player

    Nectoposting aside, isn't the main reason Legends don't get new models because devs can't easily add new model to existing character, so every single one have to be added in some kind of complicated way. As far as I understand, that is kind of the main reason we did not get any skins based on existing alternative models for characters such as Brothers in Arms Superman, Family Reunion Batman or Future Joker (this one is especially odd since it has a playable version, which I think was controlled by Jim Lee during the beta event).
    • Like x 1
  19. Eve YouTuber

    Could be another reason, Mepps however replied to a thread a few years ago *New* legends are possible. But that's all I remember on that topic. He did say however they do not plan to change existing models because It's nostalgic and we earned those. If anything, it might have been said about the Iconic Solos which also showcase old skins and not current ones (Other than Huntress\WW in the cutscenes).

    P.S, Frixos was the one to necro the thread, tho I do see the date now :p
  20. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    I think the main reason was because they didn't want to make changes to Legends that players either purchased/earned and then get upset over those changes.
    • Like x 1