Mepps can we get a Dev Discussion thread on PvP?

Moreover, I needn't even be the last man standing either, this is the plan right out of the gate outside of 1v1 instances or scenarios.

"Usually". That's the problem. I don't know if you've actually fought people who are doing what I'm describing. You can play aggressively, but you're just far more limited. You've can't use any AoE attacks because if one person in the group is blocking, you're screwed. You also can't use block breakers unless you know that they're going to hit because you're exposed to 3 people just waiting to lunge you.

To give you an idea of what we do when people I play with normally outnumber someone, we have one person fighting them normally and the other people just spamming taps and powers. It keeps the odds the same as if it was a regular 1v1 however the person is taking a lot more damage and can't get any additional counters in return. When that one person gets countered, everyone else unloads on him.

EDIT: In a 1v1 it's fine. A lot of the best players use an incredibly aggressive play style in more evenly matched fights (numerically speaking).

We're getting into situational instances and probably getting off topic.

Probably a little bit But I really wouldn't say this is situational at all really. Lots of times you'll find yourself outnumbered or outnumbering people. A lot of people just keep fighting like they always do and don't shift the meta to their advantage. Then it comes down to a combination of odds and player skill. Generally odds taking the advantage here because that meta doesn't shift to focus on a different skill.

I'm completely aware of how you premade, and the tactics you use to avoid unnecessary commitments.. but if anyone is off topic its you - since both him, the OP and myself are talking about the very way Immunity works and how we believe it should work.

Do you think 10 people should tip-toe around 1 enemy, because that 1 enemy actually has an advantage if they committed?

That is the real question, to which we want an answer.

That's how it's intended to work. That was part of the reason it was added in. It's the whole reason one skilled person can fight off multiple enemies. If they coordinate their attacks then actually unload on the guy after he's been countered, there's 0 chance that person is making it out of there.

I'm up for hearing ideas for alteration but in it's current state I'm not seeing improvements that will favor skill over numbers.

I don't think they realized the repercussions of the Immunity as its currently set up, Its fairly evident considering the amount of times they tweaked it.. so saying its intended to suit what you describe as favoring skill over numbers is just the way you see it..

Not to mention, I don't think Skill should be rewarded more than numbers, not in a way that makes numbers irrelevant anyway.

If you want suggestions to fixing it just read previous discussions over Immunity, Kara and Buzz both made really good suggestions that were completely ignored..

Did you mean to type that or did you just word it oddly? Because promoting numbers over skill just leads to spamming. And even now in the current system, numbers aren't irrelevant at all.

Regarding past discussions of immunity, such as the one Kara brought up in this thread wherein you can just break out of a counter just by hitting the block button will lead to extremely long matches because you can kite away from large amounts of damage. And it'd promote incredibly long matches and also make DoT's more powerful again because of that. To compensate for the ability to avoid huge amounts of damage consistently they'd need to lower support roles effectiveness unless we want 15 minute matches back with no kills.

I'd like to see more opinions from people on what could get them pvping again.

If you'd rather sit around and shoot down ideas or argue how nothing should change, this thread is not for you.

As I said before, immunity is a divisive topic. Some people really don't like it, and it's not because they're bad or stupid or a problem with how they think. But in all likelihood immunity will never be removed, so just go ahead and take that option off the table. If it were to be changed tomorrow though, what changes would you be okay with? What changes would be enough to satisfy both camps?

Currently, the people who benefit the most from immunity are the best PvPers. That makes some sense, but it's a bit of a problem when it benefits the top 10% of PvPers far more than the bottom 10%. Immunity was supposed to help in situations where you're outnumbered regardless of your own personal skill level, but that's really not how it worked out. It simply makes the best better and doesn't change anything for everyone else.

In general, I believe that counters need to be less punishing overall. They're just too punishing right now for the bottom 10%. There's a lot of ways to achieve that result and I've already given a few options. Counters should still be the main source of damage in PvP, and they should be relatively easy to perform for everyone regardless of their latency. I don't think they need to be so punishing that you can lose over half your health to one counter though, and that's whats happening to people right now.

I'd prefer if the rolled back every change besides the agnostic gear.

I did indeed meant to type that, numbers shouldnt be at a disadvantage against skill - not in a way that makes an increasing 1vX>1 mathematically disadvantageous to the larger group.

Also, You're wrong about that aswell, all they need to do is bring back Role RPS (Troller/Tank/Healer), the debuffs will take care of support roles effectiveness, and remind us this game had another layer of skill to it.

Finally, when I said you need to read older discussions, I didnt mean this one, there were many great suggestions that were overlooked, for example: Once a player gains Immunity, if he is countered while under its effect, have it stripped immediately, effectively rewarding the person countering, and not quite taking away from the person who initially gained a counter.

My entire point here was to clarify for you what's currently wrong with Immunity, and I feel like Sir-Ivy's initial comment pretty much put it in simpler words.

Again, it's a matter of shifting tactics. That person is still at an incredible disadvantage in those scenarios because of how much extra damage they are taking provided the other team doesn't do anything stupid, such as give off free counters. The second they do get countered multiple people can completely unload on them.

Under the system you're proposing you would very effectively be able to mitigate huge chunks of counter punishment. Even with the debuff in place, we'd still be looking at incredibly lengthy matches because of this. Breaking out at the cost of power means overall less damage will be pumped out as well. In order to compensate support roles would really, really need to be hurt by that debuff, which in turn would need to place a huge importance on the build of the team.

Going that route with immunity would just be beyond an incredibly poor design choice. It would do everything from limit tactics to completely screwing up weapon balance by ensuring some just aren't PvP viable at all. Hell, even power balance would be more screwed up than it already is. Hit boxes in this game are huge. Any melee combo that involves exposing yourself to two counters could very well be a thing of the past. Something such as say Acid Spit would become vastly over powered because it's an AoE block breaker and would effectively be able to strip anyone who just got a counter and is trying to block without even having to target them.

Just to give an idea of weapons that would be severely hurt by this in their ability to do anything in PvP related

Two Handed
Rifle
Dual Pistols
Hand Blasters
Brawling
Bow
Staff

Dual Wield

All of these weapons would be severely hurt by that type of change through either being extremely limited in what types of ranged attacks they can use because of (even if we get rid of windows which is an entirely other topic) how long the animations are or melee combos because they lack adequate single target options. It's not even as if it would just hurt the best weapons either.

In terms of what powers would be useless after this, Celestial would need to be completely changed. Right now it's almost entirely shafted in PvP but due to how it works, this would just bring it to a place from where it can't come back unless it gets anything short of a total revamp. Munitions would very likely be in the same boat given how many of it's powers are vulnerable to interrupt. Basically any powers that can't be jump cancelled and are vulnerable to interrupt would be completely and utterly useless.

This idea would basically ensure almost every power and weapon will either need to be completely re-imagined, or need numerous changes to it.

I'm all for it changing providing it's for the better, but we also don't want to move to a worse system, such as the one described above. Just because (and I mean this as sincerely as possible) some people think there are issues with the current system, it doesn't automatically make their idea better.

Seeing all this I have no other choice but conclude you didnt PvP for more than a year.

Pretty much everything you say existed in the game at some point, and the PvP was more lively and fun then it is today.
Including certain weapons being at a disadvatange, and certain powers completely avoided due to their vulnerability.

and AGAIN, you stress your tactic or way to avoid an issue, rather then trying to fix it, I dont care how you make the best out of a bad scenario, I care to make sure its balanced - get it in your head.

Not to mention your point about matches taking longer even with the debuff system makes no sense at all, you should see old PvP videos, and imagine those with todays damage.

You seem to think there's a chain effect to every decision, according to your thought process once Immunity was introduced there was a need to revamp every single powerset, since removing it, according to you, will require such process aswell.

I'm getting tired of seeing the same thing over and over, so unless you actually have a point to make rather then stress the whole "I have a way to deal with this issue, but I dont want the issue itself sorted" agenda, I think we're done..

Which is untrue. I suppose if you'd like you can keep throwing out wild guesses though which clearly add a whole lot to the conversation.

Certain weapons being at a disadvantage at one point doesn't mean the developers should actually be trying to achieve a system wherein that is the standard. The same goes for power sets. It ultimately leads to less variety and a more bland experience. So what you're saying here is completely absurd.

You're making an issue out of a non-issue. I presented a completely viable way to deal with the problem you presented within the limits of the current system and for whatever reason you keep insisting that numbers should matter more over an individual players skill, and it becomes incredibly obvious that favoring a system such as that leads to spamming and it being more damn near impossible for a good player to keep up with a well coordinated team than it already is.

The amount of damage we do, as we saw from this past season, changes from time to time. If we're able to avoid huge chunks of damage, the raw amount of damage we deal needs to be increased. That or the debuff on healers needs to be incredibly potent to ensure at least some kills go through. And I just have the odd feeling that a lot of healers wouldn't want their effectiveness to be reduced by that much and dependent on their teammate's ability to kite to such a degree.

Last I checked, I didn't say that. If they change something involving core mechanics like adding/removing/altering immunity, obviously some changes are going to be needed because they changed something that huge portions of the game had been designed around. However in this case not to the scale of the words you're attempting to put in my mouth (which in the future please avoid doing if possible). Entire revamps weren't needed when immunity was introduced because you actually had to expose yourself to risks to get it. All it did was make certain things usable.

Having immunity function in the way that was suggested though would be a step back and lead to less variety unless a lot was changed.

I did type up this section here, which kinda responded to the point you were making here preemptively:

So, bye?

Just to add, I do miss the days that controllers were actually controllers. The changes in pvp have made them into being a power battery and damage dealer. I would like to see the return of debuffs and the job of CC limited to the controller role.

Tanks were actually useful back then. In the current state of pvp, they are useless and not used. Right now, tanks are just glorified node holders. Tanks use to provide us our cleanses and immunity for a short time. Give back the usefulness of tanks. The old system actually relied on coordinated cleanses and encouraged team work.

Bring back the debuff system and extending cleanses to 6 seconds would be the best solution for PvP.

As a role in the game, I don't want to be a second rate dps. I want to the ability to actually perform my job whether it be healing, troll, or tank. If I am a DPS, I will be DPS. The current system to me seems very flawed.

There is no way for PvP (arenas) not to perpetually get put through the meat grinder. This is why I'm 100% confident even if there is a positive update now, it'll get trashed by the next one.

Game updates are nice, yes. However, if you just drop them into the game and expect PvP to work with it then you've got issues. There is a 4 year chart we could draw up to show how all the positive updates to PvP get absolutely owned by additional updates that add something or the other mainly meant for PvE. I don't need to cite all of that, most of you guys already know.

Season 2 was pretty good because it fixed a lot of the nonsense season 1 brought and season 3 initially did the same.. but then the PvE updates came out and we're back to square one. If PvP is not COMPLETELY separated and treated as a different entity from PvE it will continue to get absolutely nowhere as per usual. The side-by-side development does not work and is detrimental to the player experience.

I put some of my thoughts on the issue up here when I saw it going south: https://forums.station.sony.com/dcu...aking-collateral-damage-4-years-later.235076/

Unless I see talk of separation by green names this is pretty much useless and is business as usual.

Fix the CC.
Fix the BB delay
Bring back the old PvP ( where controllers,tanks were useful), but not the utility belt & the consumables, which made the games very laggy.
Remove the WM,AM.

DEAR LORD, YES!! One thing you're missing though is that Weapon Mastery balanced out the introduction of Home Turf. Weapon Master sped matches up again. On USPS side at least, competitive scrims moved from 5s to 4s because people were looking for quicker but fun matches. When Weapon Mastery came out, they moved back to 5s because they could still get those fast, fun competitive matches with the higher damage being dealt. A lot of this issue with slow matches has more to do with the crit caps in my opinion, but I'll digress from that for now. The RPS system and "Quadrinity" worked! It was at it's best before Season 3.

Yes!

One of my favorite things is watching a troller double jumping in fear from me with his tail between his legs. I miss that.

Exactly ! Haha it was the good old days..

These are some things that would definitely make me jump head first back in PvP

- Remove WM and AM. I prefer the old clip heavy play style i realize this will be highly unlikely because of the balancing issues it will cause.

- Decrease the power cost. I want to actually have a power bar again that wont be completely depleted after a few powers.

- Bring back the RPS system. This will encourage people to at least run one of each role.

- Tighten up the counter system. I understand there will always be a little delay but from the years i've been playing it definitely feels much more loose than it did back in 2012.

- Remove the crit cap. With the removal of WM and AM this will help speed up the matches and allow me to use my character to his fullest potential.

- Immunities. As of right now i'm perfectly fine with how blue immunities work they promote awareness and reward reaction time.

- Supercharges. This is my opinion but i think we should be able to build our SC before the match its an option if you want to prepare for your next fight.

- Fixing CC. there is nothing more annoying than breaking out 3-4 times.

-DOT duration. It needs to be put back to the full time this will help some powers (for example nature without wolf) with damage allowing them to keep up with burst powers. you may be thinking this will make some powers OP but remember this would be without WM or AM.