Test Discussion Mental Midrange Adjustments

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Tunso, Dec 4, 2015.

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  1. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    Its definitely nice to have the shortcut for gad/mental cause it spices the power up and makes it less boring and i'm all for adding more variety cause i hate how simple and not skilled everything has become, but they need to implement these things in correctly. If there going to be able to put out the dps that fast the simple solution is to tone down the damage they do. There needs to be a trade off somewhere either keep them 123 and boring doing big hits or make them faster doing smaller damage but the speed makes up for the damage decrease. Simple stuff here but people seem to over look it lol

    Most people just look at it from a dps point of view meaning they just want to go out and be top dps they don't look at the big picture and how it will affect other powers down the line.
    • Like x 1
  2. Fies Committed Player

    Good idea. Should imo be atleast any/1st part of the AM/PI so that if knocked down/rupted inbetween you have the shortcut available but not making it advantageous to use during first cycle if anything works out/uninterrupted.
    Nonetheless the main issue I see with balancing now is where to stop. Burst is a huge factor ofc but there are others like "universal"/all-range-loadouts,buffs of dot-powers (especially nature), interruptibility... Lots of these also have to do with content design.
    The way the different powers AMs have been implemented/their uniqueness might have to suffer in order to not just switch the "strong and weak" ones around and focus should imo rather move to other aspects of the game in a timely manner also.
    Edit: On another note regarding shortcuts: with mental changes its basically like every power with a non-universal loadout got a shortcut/really low setup time (with the exception of fire kind of). Pets are outliers but might get adjusted with midrange weapon update. From a systematic point of view that sounds about right for me.
    Also the shortcut (in form of stealth) takes space in your bar and doesnt allow to go for a range (25m) abillity also which is a tradeoff that absolutely has to be considered.
  3. Sore Steadfast Player

    I'm not sure Instant Rawr is a fair trade-off for Universal Loadout. Look again at Ice which has both. I also think universal load outs are problematic too. I kind of view both as class features distributed with no current rhyme or reason and both are only penetrated enough to be exceptions. Neither are too prevalent to back out of but both are complex enough that you wouldn't want a separate pass to balance / introduce them. But since my comments had the chance to air and aren't entirely testing focused, I won't hold to a derail.
  4. Fies Committed Player

    Concerning "tradeoff" Im partly with you especially regarding recent "normal" non-SM/hard content where staying in midrange is viable almost 100%. Allthough the question is what content powers should be balanced around. Looking at SM or even BDe last boss (atleast when it dropped) having an universal loadout can be a huge advantage.
    At a certain point of "balance" on sparring targets it should imo be more about content design-decisions.
    Mid-range-burst being king imo results from a certain design concept which is overused. (low-hp-adds->more of them->boss without many "mechanics")
    Extended periods that require more short-interval blocking (or even moving out of range in the future who knows) could greatly improve dot powers viability (as an example) while setting 123-4 powers- especially those without long-range- at a disadvantage (and a shortcut could even be their only option to remain viable then).
    Only balancing around how things currently are (with huge effort) might again leave powers rather unbalanced when/if content design changes (it should imo) or even hinder future changes.
    Regarding Ice theres no real tradeoff (phasedodge vs longrange aside) which makes it hard to balance. Best out of all worlds kind of.
    Nature once brought in line could also cause issues bc of its huge buff potential. Even atm I see nature dps as a great addition to a team (especially 5111) bc of its buffs. While their dmg doesnt show up on the scorecard (atleast where it results from) nature already might actually be top-dps in raids (in overall dmg-potential) and could become kind of mandatory to have on the team in the future.

    Since mental+gadgets are the only "real" 123-4 powers without universal loadout (and resulting in 0 dmg when interupted) I still see the shortcut (maybe with the addition you suggested) as balanced enough especially since it is a tradeoff to pick steath over range in hardest content. Ice probably needs special treatment though.

    Edit: Sorry for OT again should have pmed
  5. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    This is off topic but I think all buffs should be only self buffs. While it's nice to help the team it is something that throws things off. Just something to think about for the future.
    • Like x 2
  6. Black Jaq Devoted Player

    Take mid range out of it. What you are not seeing is that Gadgets and Mental can also stay full range and potentially beat out other power sets at full range.
  7. TestReporter Loyal Player

    • Like x 1
  8. Fies Committed Player

    Ofc but at the cost of not having the shortcut/stealth or at the very least not having a utility/sc slot like for example quantum has (which has 2). Unfotunately there are 6 slots only... Unless ML/PD hits as hard as MT/EMP at close/midrange now... If Mental/Gadgets finishers would be equally viable for ALL ranges like for example timebomb then you would be right ofc (while quantum would still have 1 more utility slot:))
  9. Absolix Loyal Player

    Once the mid-range sweep is done all powers should be doing very similar damage at all ranges, including full. If Mental is adjusted to the targets it will be in the same spot as Atomic, Celestial, Gadgets, Fire, and Quantum. That's 5 other powers that can keep up already.

    Quantum's better loadouts all require 5 slots for the AM, and it was actually balanced in the mid-range update around those loadouts. You'll lose more damage than you gain if you try to use two utility slots.

    The "finishers" are getting to hit from 2 of the 3 ranges just like Fire, Gadgets, and likely most of the other AMs.

    Keep in mind Time Bomb also has a huge AoE that can hit enemies both in melee and far range at the same time. This can lead to damage splitting that will lower damage. Other "finishers" can only hit in melee and mid or mid and full range at the same time.

    There are some pros to Time Bomb and some cons. It is not as amazingly better as you seem to be convinced it is.

    Also, let's keep in mind what this thread is for, Mental AM mid-range adjustment testing. If you want to talk more about other subjects and such, there is the Powers and Weapons section of the forums.
  10. Fies Committed Player

    Thats what I was trying to explain. Quant AM (as an example only nothing against quant) works using 4-5 slots- for all ranges. While Mental/Gadgets already require 5-slots for 2/3 ranges or all 6 slots to cover all ranges. Since I love my mental char and I am really looking forward to the addition of the shortcut I felt the need to defend its implementation here which I admittedly should have done via pm.
    Point is in order to equip/utilize the shortcut Mental/gadgets has to give up on a long-range finisher which is also why I feel why it is balanced. All-range loadout requires all of the 6 slots unlike other Powers which already is a disadvantage by itself.
  11. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    Bug report:

    If you clip granduer too fast, The damage from mass terror will miss.

    So for Example: If I use 1 2 3 into mass terror, then clip it with granduer then use mass terror again, you won't get big hit.

    -Mass hysteria is still showing as a 100% supercharge.


    Mental is hitting the following marks of dps:
    Right now I'm averaging 27k to 34k within melee distance, a little bit too high compared to quantum and gadgets.

    23 to 25k at mid range distance.

    Mental is hitting too hard at long range:

    I'm averaging 16 to 23k average around long range.

    Loadout and rotation:

    Invisiblity: (Put reasonance and telekenetic push in here)

    Hit mass terror/Mass Lev

    Use grandeur into mass terror/mass lev

    Then Resonance builders into mass terror mass/lev

    I've also swapped grandeur with pyro and I'm averging the same results.

    Note with Invisblitiy you can also put in menance and get even higher results.

    So mental needs a slight adjustment to its damage output imo.

    Please keep any discussions about Quantum out of this thread, this is for mental only.
  12. Absolix Loyal Player

    Your damage is actually hitting below the targets.

    For testing it is typically run as several 10 second parses averaged together, with any parses where mistakes were made getting thrown out. Giving about here to here for values is far too imprecise to know how much something needs to get adjusted, if something indeed needs to be adjusted,

    As a reminder of what you should be specced and what is the target Dps for each range.
    • Like x 1
  13. pitbullb3 Devoted Player

    Instant damage isn't the only problem, right now 3 emp gadget l/o is the strongest power, and the 126 25k/30k/35k wasn't tested around the 3 emp l/o, and should be tested that way for mental. If powers want shortcuts, there dps power set should revolve around that set-up. Mental dps baseline test should revolve around a 3 mt l/o, and gadgets should be retested. I know players are gonna say the l/o is not viable, but i know a few people who run entire instances that way
  14. TestReporter Loyal Player

    It's very hard to keep up without display/resonance in stealth/invibility, if they make a new testing based on that, 90% of the mental/gadgets players are going to do low damage, and that loadout is not viable in all instances, if the player can use a loadout without display/resonance they should be rewarded with the extra damage.
  15. pitbullb3 Devoted Player

    They put display inside of stealth with the 3 emp l/o. How do you balance that where some can do it, but most can't? If they give 2 powers high skill high dmg l/o, why can't they all have it? I think display and resonance shouldn't be in stealth/invisibility.
  16. Rival Ops Level 30

    Tunso, I just switched to mental about a week ago and I noticed its the only troll power that instantly drops it power back mechanic if you are interrupted during your big hit or if you do not complete the 1,2,3,4 rotation. For example if I am interrupted during mass lev or mass terror I will have to reapply resonance and if I don't get a chance to use Mass lev/Terror because I have to stop and block or get out of dodge resonance disappears right away. Please fix this (within reason) so that resonance stays on you regardless of interruptions and you having to stop the rotation. It would be a huge QoL improvement. There are many times this happened and I did not notice my AM was gone until I was out of power.
  17. Absolix Loyal Player

    On live, Resonance lasts 6 seconds from when it is active, and has it's duration renewed to 6 seconds when Mass Lev or Mass Terror is used while it is active. If you feel like you won't be able to both stack resonance and use one of those powers before it expires, just skip straight to one of the Mass powers to renew the duration.

    Also, keep this thread to the changes Mental has on test. It was changed from power back to power regen on test, so this is not the appropriate thread for this anyways.

    Keep this thread to testing Mental's AM's mid-range update.
  18. TestReporter Loyal Player

    All powers should have something like this, yes.
    You are right, display and resonance shouldn't be in stealth/invibility if other powers don't have something like this (RISKvsOP damage).
  19. Fies Committed Player

    Test spec 126 CR / 10423 Might / Core+MaxDmg+Esc.Might / LH might+crit+dmg / 24* 10-sec-parses

    Close: PsyRes/Grandeur/TKBolt/TKPush/PsyShock/MT

    high: 50914 / low: 27572 / mean: 37364

    Mid1: PsyRes/Grandeur/TKBolt/TKPush/PsyShock/MT

    high: 36567 / low: 23454 / mean: 29721

    Mid2: PsyRes/Pyro/TKBolt/TKPush/PsyShock/MT

    high: 44997 / low: 20148 / mean: 30405

    Long1: PsyRes/Grandeur/TKBolt/TKPush/PsyShock/ML

    high: 33074 / low: 19679 / mean:24162

    Long2: PsyRes/Pyro/TKBolt/TKPush/PsyShock/ML

    high: 34223 / low: 21345 / mean: 25241

    Notes: Close is borderline to strong. I would have wanted to post results using stealth along with menace also but sparring targets "panicking" makes it far to unreliable imo. Also adding a bit to long-range/ML seems reasonable.

    Cant confirm. Works fine imo and I tried to clip it as hard as possible (also using different keyboard and mouse key-settings).
    • Like x 1
  20. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    That's the only way we can use the 3 shortcut method..
    Unless you prefer a lot of gadgets and mental dps draining your trollers.
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