Let's make DPS a real team role!

The title basically says the intent. I'm totally open for discussion from all points of view. Remember, disagreeing is fine; leave name-calling and feelings it of it, though. Different perspectives are healthy and if you can keep an open mind, the compromises can actually promote good change. We're all family here.

So, to the idea! Tanks defend the whole team. It might not be directly, but the defense of the entire team goes up due to the fact they can hold the aggro, taking the pressure off the other roles (ftmp) and allowing them to do their jobs. They also cleanse negative effect and can provide protection from control for the team.

Healers heal and shield the entire team. Their affect is noticable, so I'm not going into it much. We all know healers at this point in gaming.

Trollers give you that beautiful power, provide debuffs that benefit the whole team, and can help control adds, especially if there are more than eight at a time.

DPS players... ... Buff themselves for damage. Sure, that helps the team, but it isn't exactly team play. As a matter of fact, many times, because of role-less buffs, they don't even really get as much of a benefit running with support players as they do just burning everything down with damage. I have an idea that could potentially change that, which, to be honest, i think should have been in the game from the start:

When playing in dps role, all support roles also get a defined percentage of the stacked buffs you have. This effect, of course, wouldn't stack in raids (or maybe it could, but they'd certainly have to increase difficulty.)

I mean a substantial buff, though. Like let us get 80% of their buffs. That way dps is still doing the most damage, but then forming og style groups would actually be considered viable (maybe even preferred) in all content again. It might even promote some of those scoreboard chasers to try out a role if the still feel like they can do significant damage on top of it.

It's late, I'm tired, someone knows what i mean and can help clean up the idea lol

Discuss

DPS are a team role already and they don't just buff themselves, DPS artifacts can and do buff other DPS.

The DPS are designed to burn and burn quickly, without that the other roles either have to compromise their primary role to increase damage or burn a lot slower increasing their chance of making am error and wiping.

The faster something is killed the easier the fight is through a decreased risk of individual or group error.

Im not sure why you think DPS isn't already a role in its own right, just because everyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't a role.

Support roles also don't need damage buffs, they're not there to do damage, their job is to undertake their primary support role.

Hrmmmm....

No.

DPS doesn't need more artificial padding - the game now is like, at least 50% more playable than it was when I quit a couple years ago simply because you're not either a score-chasing DPS or a Support Role character whose only real purpose in existence is to make sure everybody else lives and whose only reward is to be cussed out when that fails.

There are shades of grey and experimentation is actually supported by the lack of a gigantic gap between DPS and Support roles.

This seems like "encouraging DPS value" on the surface, but it's likely going to turn into "eight people who all insist that their DPS damage bonus is more important than having crowd control or health". I'll pass.

A DPS's role in the group is to burn enemies down efficiently because Tanks, Healers and Controllers can not. DPS are also responsible for interacting with mission objectives where damage is not required, so the support roles can focus on support.

Not sure where you got that i don't consider them a role in their own right... I specifically said TEAM role. Which... Basically all of you are saying its our job to power your fun, and you having that fun is your team role. Here is why this thread was brought up. There was a feat users were complaining about; the speed feat in the new alert. The response was a resounding (and I'm paraphrasing) 'go dps, then.' probably the most hypocritical response ever in my opinion, considering the whole reason for the roleless buff was because dps absolutely refused to switch and maintain their role. I'm not against that idea, i think all players should be able to play however they would like, but now, in order to get the same feats as them, players who actually buff their whole team are getting left behind. None of you have told me what's wrong with the idea of dps actually providing a full team buff like all the others. Dps can buff other dps with an artifact? Cool story, all the other roles can buff the whole team right out of the box. So, you all want our power, heals and defense; but want to give nothing in return because... That's the way the game has always been played? Should we go back to the way it was for the first stuff years where dps feels like the street child because the game is overpopulated and there were no role less buffs because that's how it always was? Do you honestly think the game is running so so well and the population is high enough, so nothing can be made better?

How about you share some of the fun we let you have? Mmos are team games... Dps aren't exactly known for being team players, and now they're getting feats others can't because of it. At least before the buffs, if dps groups got the feats earlier, they were actually skilled and not just playing the right role.... Which they refuse to switch anyways.

You say DPS isn't a TEAM role when that couldn't be further from the truth, all the roles, DPS included form a group and all the roles are equally important to success including DPS.

When I say they're a role in their own right I mean TEAM role in the context of your discussion, often numerous peoeple try to act like DPS isn't even a role, this often comes from people that focus primarily on support and start to become a bit obnoxious and pretentious; equally so there are numerous DPS players that become the same towards support role players where they start to belittle the signficance of what they're doing.

The reality is we're all a part of the team and all the roles already make up the necessary requirements in order to succeed as a group.

All roles already contribute towards the group and all roles are equally important to the group, There is no requirement to buff support players any further than what they already are and if the suggestion is that they buff your damage output then I'm sorry but no, as a support player you're not there to do damage, that isn't your job and if you want to do damage because the instance demands it, let's say it's small content, duo, solo, alert etc, then yes, the correct answer is, yes switch DPS, that's why all powers can DPS in the first place...

As discussed in that alert thread, there is a distinction between playing/completing content and obtaining a feat, feats are over and above completing content itself, if you want a feat then you need to do what it takes to get the feat and in that particular case it was a speed feat and that requires burn, if the feat was staying alive then you'd probably rely more on support roles, feats are different at times unfortunately some people don't seem to want to mix up their playstyles, there's too many people that just want to play one dimensionally and not play both roles as/when it becomes optimal or required to do so.

I can't help but notice in your statement you said "but want to give nothing in return" the DPS are giving you something in return, they're burning the npc's down and doing damage, that is a direct benefit to you, just as equally as your heals, power and defense is - This is a TEAM game and DPS is part of the TEAM.

I'm pretty sure you are aware that a group full of battle supports with only 1 DPS will do much more damage than a 4 DPS group because each one of those 4 dps will receive a 37.5 % damage debuff. So if your definition of fun is being able to deal damage as a team player, go battle support. Of course, only if you have high SP, artifacts, gear, and skills.

They're giving you time, which is arguably the most precious commodity in the world...

Lol hold on, let me put my boots on; it's getting so deep in here! Lol

the real question should be why are tanks, trollers, and healers are considered support but dps isn't? Dps is also support role, each role has a job, we support each other.

I understand what the op is saying, all they are asking that a trinket for a dps gives a buff to everyone else buff up damage. Even if tanks, trolls, and healers got a buff, doesn't mean they will do more damage then a dps. But could help speed things up some.

Thank you, that is not what i meant than the way i put it. The way i put out made it feel like it's not part of the team, which want my intent. Making it have an actual support function is a much better way of putting it.

Also, want to say, sorry for getting short in here earlier, i was up with a crying 1 y/o at that time... I'm all for both sides of the discussion getting their say.

Try running without damage in a group and see how much support they actually provide.

The in-jest poking aside, damage dealing is a team role. Always has been. Damage, tanking, healing and controlling are the four parts of the equation in group content.

There's a part of me that thinks some of the problem is with the word "support" and any meanings players attach to it, as if doing damage is excluded from being used with that term. It's why I try to think of things in terms of damage and non-damage roles, not damage and support. Doing damage supports the group effort, whether it seems like a support role or not.

And now I've typed the word "support" enough that it's starting to lose ALL meaning to me. LOL

Lol I'm gonna totally support a couple more times, let's just kill the word!

I do understand what your saying, but while it absolutely does super through damage, this is the point in trying to make. A tank has high defense in their own. Those abilities also pass of to the group (albeit indirectly) by their ability to taunt. They also cleanse debuffs directly. That isn't to say they can't run alone, just that their powers carry over to the group. Same with healing and trolling. I don't give myself peers and debuffs, i provide that support so the whole team gets the benefit.

I'm not asking that the dps themselves get nerfed, I'm asking that they provide the team with a buff. To me (and this is specifically my opinion) the only reason you wouldn't want something like this is because the dos relish the way that damage looks compared to the rest of the team on the scoreboard.

But think about these situations. Let's say your a dps running a duo at level and you're trying to get a speed feat. You get a troller that barely made the cut off. Wouldn't it be nice if your me presence helped get there dps where it needed to be?

I'm not trying to take anything away from dos players, I'm trying to make it to where they can make everyone stronger according to their class, just like the rest of the support roles.

Small interesting note. This isn't my first account in here. I just forgot my old password which was on a20 y/o Hotmail account with no backup way to get that password which i also forgot. I've been playing this game since it released. Paid for the collectors edition in ps3. When FoS first dropped, we did exactly that. Best the raid in actually decent time (for the time.. i mean i can easily get the speed feat soloing it in troller role now). It can be done. Yes, dps doing damage does make it faster, but it's gotten to the point where people are skipping out on taking roles in now, because the buffs are nice and don't damage does things along. I just feel like maybe we could have that happen regardless of group comp. Let's face it the population isn't exactly what it used to be and we should be looking for ways to truly make every comp viable. As much as most dps don't want to play the other role associated with their power, many full support players don't want to switch to dps.

I think people see "support" and think of it as a derogatory term toward the support roles when I don't think it was meant to be. I've always thought it was meant more as a dig toward the DPS, i.e. "they don't provide support to everyone, those primadonnas." Tank provide support in the form of taking damage meant for THE GROUP, healers provide support by restoring health to THE GROUP, trollers provide support by giving power to THE GROUP. DPS could be considered providing support by killing things quickly for THE GROUP? Now we're all supporting each other. Everyone bring it in, we'll hug it out.

Hmm.....

I think the word *support* is overused when labeling roles in this game. In my opinion, the only roles that should have the *support* tag are healers and controllers. Tanks should be labeled as Tank/Defense because they are the main line of defense for a team, after all. Melee should be melee/melee and Dps should be dps/dps. For example, a water power character should be healer/support, where the support powers would be the damage dealing powers. An Ice power character would have Tank/Defense powers. The mechanics of the powers should not change (for the most part) but the labeling should.

What has to be kept in mind, though, is that players can still do damage while in non-damage roles. Even if they're putting as many points as possible into role-relevant stats/augments and avoiding putting much into Precision, Might or Crits, those non-damage players will still do some damage while performing their roles. And that damage increases if the player decides to try to run a battle version of their non-damage role.

Adding a buff to the group from damage players could upset the content balance that's been pursued by the devs, meaning a re-balancing of ALL group content to account for the new buff. Not exactly a small task, Plus it also can come across of someone trying to have their cake and eat it too, running a non-damage role but getting increased damage anyway which may not be the best look.

Now *that* is a good point. But I'd also happily wait for it if i knew it was coming lol

It's a feature that aside from your amazing point, i can't really see a true downside for. Which in the end, if they did rebalance, i can't think of players who wouldn't like it. I mean, imagine a stat at the end that lets you know how much damage you boosted for other players on top of your own damage stats! (I'm totally profiling all dps as scorecard chasers right now... Lol)

And because the word hasn't been tossed around enough: Support!

You're confusing stat buffs with a player simply doing their job and doing that then has a passive impact on a groups success.

A tanks defense doesn't buff the group, it is their job to taunt the NPC's so if a tank isn't taunting the NPC's and bosses they're failing in their task. The same goes for healers and controllers and the same goes for DPS.

You're entirely missing the point of the team construction, each part clicks in to place in order to create a functional unit.

You're suggesting that DPS somehow buff the damage output of "support roles"? why? So they can do more damage? Why do they need to do more damage? If a DPS is doing their job correctly for the group then the support players shouldn't need to do more damage, and if what you're doing or attempting is a feat, then I'm sorry but again you need to change the dynamics of the group to better suit obtaining the achievement.

The answer to that is changing more players into DPS not buffing the support class to become DPS players, that almost sounds like you're attempting to eradicate the DPS role or certainly diminish it for the sole purpose of being able to more efficiently deal damage while staying in support, when the answer is to switch.

In your duo example the answer isn't to buff that controller to get the speed feat, it's for that controller to stop playing in controller role, learn to DPS, actually play both sides of their character/power and stop expecting a carry.

That player is an example of a person who just wants everything but doesn't want to play the way the game demands them to in order to get the feat and before you say "but now you're forcing players to DPS", the answer is not at all, they can certainly complete content in support role but it's going to be slower and if there's a feat that demands speed then they're not going to cut it and that is exactly why all powers have access to DPS.

Despite that fact of course players can already make "hybrid battle specs" for their roles where they can do almost as much DPS as a pure DPS players, they'll of course be compromising their support side in order to do so, but you can't expect to have both, so the other answer to your question is that it already exists if you want to build your character that way.


I just wanted to address your last part as well about players "skipping out on taking roles in" there is no such thing as skipping out taking roles, you take the roles you want to take as a group that you think will assist you in either completing content or obtaining a given feat, if that's 3 tanks it's 3 tanks, if its 6 DPS and no tank, that's what it is.

Too many people have this mentality that the group construction must be made up of one way and one way only, the game allows you the freedom to construct your group however you please, whether you succeed of course is another matter, it sounds like you need to embrace that a little more.

Sorry, forgot a point. As for having their came and eating it too. You could look at it like that, but i don't look down on the dps player for still getting heals, power and cleanses when they're not in the role... Would be a bit hypocritical for the reverse to be true, no?

STOP THAT!!!!



Even though you could wait for it, is it something the community at large could wait for? Especially if it affected new/future content releases? This community has always been pretty voracious when it comes to content consumption, and even hints at delays are usually met with pitchforks and torches.