It's time for an honest conversation Devs - What are you doing?

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Proxystar, Apr 15, 2022.

  1. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm just putting this thread here, because it's much wider than any feedback thread in the "development section" really allows because it's about everything

    As I was playing last night, these thoughts really hit me and I feel they should be expressed by someone willing to be honest, it's feedback that needs to be heard, so don't take it the wrong way and I'm sorry but there's a few topics here.

    I've been playing this game since release and I really love the game and I truly hate to bag on it, but it also does no good to lie to oneself about its shortcomings. As of late, it feels like the game is guilty of seemingly moving into "caretaker mode" and it has to be called out as a customer/player for what it is.

    I don't mean any disrespect of course in saying this, but I can't see any other way to express it other than to perhaps be a bit brutally honest.

    So much of the content is being recycled and it begs the question "what are you doing with the development time?" I know I don't entirely appreciate the nuances of "development" and what might be involved, but you also have to appreciate, that as a customer/player I don't really care about that, I only care about the quality/quantity of the product I'm being provided with.

    As a player there isn't enough fresh content, I don't know what's going on, but very little of the new release content we're now getting is truly new. I'll itemize it below so you can see for yourself.

    There's also way, way, way too much "Dark Knights" content it's becoming too much and perhaps the reason for this post with me personally is that this most recent DLC was the last straw needed to make it too obvious.

    Since September 2019
    • Metal Part 1 **Dark Knights Story**
    • Metal Part 2 **Dark Knights Story**
    • Birds of Prey
    • Wonderverse **Dark Knights Story - because its about Perpetua still and the breaking wall**
    • Long Live the Legion
    • World of Flashpoint
    • House of Legends *Doesn't count in my mind - entirely recycled*
    • Legion of Doom **Dark Knights Story**
    • Dark Knights **Dark Knights Story**
    So Since September 2019, (it's now April 2022) we've only had 3 episodes not directly related to this same story arc, it's become too much! It's too much, not all of us are obsessed with Death Metal Dark Knight DC stuff...

    We're getting 2 or 3 episodes a year if we're lucky and 5 in the past 3 years have been Metal, 3 have been something else and the last one was an entire recycle and not even an episode.

    Taking a look at these two most recent DLC's as well, we got Legion in December 2021, we now get this in April 2022 and it's basically the same open world DLC reskinned with perhaps a few new NPC's. It all really just feels the same, with a different sky but a plethora of recycled NPC's.
    • We've got recycled ultra violet lanterns
    • We've got a plethora of Dark Robins again, some other lanterns and some things with tails down the far end at the Washington monument.
    • The bounties are all recycled Dark Knights.
    You've got some extra weekly missions that people aren't really directed too with any ease, just sorta slapped in there. it's easy for players to miss these things, there's no real navigation and are they even rewarded, there's nothing in the reward window and if they are rewarded, that's even worse they're not clearly pointed out.

    You've got disjointed overlapping daily missions with white icons all over the place so it's not entirely clear what you're really supposed to be doing sometimes, it's honestly an absolute mess,

    I do like the Hall of Justice area, it's cool, but the whole place is just a mess for players and it feels like we're still in the same place we've been for months now already.

    Now we go to the Duo
    • Recycled environment
    • Recycled first bosses - they're literally copy pastes, including mechanics
    • Recycled second boss - I literally thought I was in Fire and Brimstone for a second
    • Last boss is newish, but is yet again a variant of Batman, but with a Darkseid omega beam
    Now the Alert
    • Recycled environment
    • Recycled First Boss - Literally feels like the same as Earth 3 raids
    • Recycled Second Boss - Thought I might even have a chance at the Ultraman cape drop in here is this PANe or a new alert?
    • Newish Last boss - but I'm struggling with this, near Doomsday variant, but gets an ok'ish pass.
    The Raid
    • Newish environment
    • Same boss as the alert
    • Reskinned Dark Knight Bosses with name plays
    • Only true new boss is Perpetua.
    • Reskinned Tentacles like they were taken straight from COUE, honestly waiting for Trigon to appear.
    Last DLC we had similar stuff where bosses and environments were recycled, Moon Base, More stuff in the League hall, but with more Metal stuff and Mxy. The timing of that whole thing made it feel like you took something that was meant to be for a St Patricks instance and put it in that alert because you ran short of time?

    I mean we're not even getting two raids anymore? Remember when we used to get 2 alerts, 2 raids and small content. What happened to the types of content we used to get like Origin Crisis?!?! where's the alerts like Brother in Arms and Family Reunion with 5 bosses and some real meaty story to them, where are they?!?!

    Instead we're getting instances we've seen before, bosses we've seen before and virtually no real meat to the story just feels like filler and cheap voice lines while its shortcomings are hidden by a "glossy looking Perpetua".

    Actually while I'm thinking about it, the main premise of this games story was always about Exobyte heroes and Brainiac, but there's been no meaningful additions to that story line in forever and it's just increasingly disappointing the base cannon gets so ignored.

    When was the last time we had "Riddler" as a boss, if ever??!? When was the last time we had a decent Penguin boss as a raid? Where's Joker?!?!? Why can't you get Mark Hammil or just recast it?!??! Where is Catwoman??!? We need more Lantern content... But instead we get 5 Death Metal DLC's...

    It feels like this game has truly lost its way, which is why I say "caretaker mode" because it feels like it's not really trying anymore and again I mean no disrespect, it's just utterly frustrating and even more so as a longstanding player to just watch the game slide from where it once was.

    Then there's the stale progression model of sideways 4 month progression, where everyone just stays in a lane and rat races gear, for example you get a bit of trash gear, run elite, beat elite, get renown, get elite gear, get discount buy other sets, wait for next episode. The normal gear doesn't even mean anything to an elite player other than the feat. it's an entirely dysfunctional and unnatural progression model that seems to be built more around "farming replays from players" than being satisfying...

    There's not enough horizontal progression spread throughout the game, it's all just vertical rat race... How about some artifact weapons that require us to farm R&D materials from the whole game that continually get upgraded each time, that we're continually playing to strengthen, that sort of thing.

    Oh and well I'm on this rant, I feel like I have to put in the obligatory "what are you doing with PVP"??... it's truly shameful the lack of attention it gets, I get it you seem to not want to fix it because of its lack of monetization, but that's not okay, it's not okay!

    I mean all you'd have to do as well is let people get their feats through scrimmages and the pressure would come off that aspect. Put in some PVP bonus weeks every now and again with bonus marks and you could get some people running it with some less complaints, that's basically giving you a bit of an "out" from fixing it, despite the fact I'd rather you actually just fixed it and better balanced it.

    Anyway that's enough for now otherwise the rant gets too long.

    TLDR; Devs my first impressions of this episode are that it is a bit on the "bad side", sorry to put it that way, but I'm just giving you my honest opinion and feedback and honesty is important.
    • Like x 36
  2. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    I was going to post my own initial thoughts in a new thread but this one is purrfect. Let me start by saying over all I like this DLC. Yes, Ep 43 has re-used assets but that is a case of using what you've got to save time, and the assets are good ones. Since this is the conclusion of the Dark Metal story line, it just makes sense to me that previously used assets & locations would be revisited or re-used.

    The open world boss fights I found to be really enjoyable with each boss unique in their attacks. Even the kill 100 Dark Knight demons was fun. I was in a group at the time so that added to the enjoyment. The missions, to me, (the duo, alert, raid) are more fun than Ep. 42 was, even if the locations are revisited. They are different enough to be unique in their own right.

    We all knew that Ep 43 would be a 'live training episode' for the new hires to gain experience as well as still one where the "seasoned" developers were still working overtime on to complete the project. Ep 44 will be a true example of the creative talents of the "new" dev team at Daybreak.

    I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the devs on so far smooth launch of Ep 43 and for giving us new adventures that are to me so far very enjoyable & fun. Of course when playing with friends, that always makes missions more fun. I have not attempted any Elite so I can not comment on that aspect of the game.

    So at this point, April 15, 2022, well done and thank you. I am enjoying it.
    • Like x 7
  3. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm more than happy for you to share your thoughts even though I appreciate they differ, I think what frustrates me the most is the amount of recycling, it feels like its too much. I understand entirely some is to be expected, but when its the majority of the content, it just doesn't feel "new and fresh".

    Some of the bosses just don't feel particularly relevant to the story line I guess, just loosely tied to it through the comics (I don't dispute that part) but it feels like they're used because they're characters already conveniently designed.

    There are parts of the DLC I like and I'm perhaps guilty of not giving that enough or any focus in my post.
    • Like x 4
  4. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    I think they were still able to pull off a very creative job of re-using assets to create something new as a whole especially given the personnel training and leaning more heavily on the experienced employees.

    I still believe Ep 44 will show us what they are truly capable of creating. What new worlds of wonder can we expect? I'm excited about that.

    As I said in an older post in another thread, I was not going to get my hopes up for Ep 43, but it has surpassed my expectations in a goo way. I too hope that the devs will come up with a better plan to keep player engagement after the first 5-6 weeks are over.
  5. KidKretz Well-Known Player

    i read down to the dark knight metal content part and thought that maybe you missed this dev post?

    "No. We're done with Metal stuff for a good while. Maybe one day though. With Black Adam and Shazam coming out this year, you can expect more of that type of stuff.I also want to do more Lantern stuff next year."
  6. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    Yes, Charon, the Lead Designer stated that this was his goal going forward. Ep 44 will show us what the new team of developers can do, new in the sense that they have new hires in addition to the developers who were already there. But Ep 43 has just launched so lets enjoy this DLC while the powers that be at Daybreak have meetings about planning Ep 44.

    Plus as Proxy has observed, for those who enjoy PvP, I hope this aspect of the game will be addressed sooner rather than later.
    • Like x 1
  7. Proxystar #Perception

    No, I saw that, thanks though :) - I can only say thank goodness, but if anything this feedback is equally important because I just hope the devs don't take this approach again, 5 DLC's over 2 years on one story line like this is just too much of the same stuff, I hope it doesn't happen again lol :D
    • Like x 6
  8. Pale Rage Dedicated Player

    I'll throw in my half penny worth.
    I'm happy that this is the conclusion to the dark/death metal stuff, and I honestly hope that Batman (and Batman themed stuff) takes a back seat, and for a very long time. I do feel it's about right time that another hero/villain takes the spotlight (which is been told that is coming this year).

    I kinda feel like the whole pandemic thing put restraints and constraint upon the development team (not that I'm searching for an excuse for recycling so much, but it does fit the narrative), creating issues with development integration from the individual developers. That being said, I've witnessed more than a fair share of new DLC's that brought some serious bugs/glitches/exploits/shutdowns. This one, so far, was released with little issue and error! So a massive high five to the devs for this!

    Yes, the new DC area is recycled, but I kinda feel like that's a fitting place to begin the conclusion of the metal series. Sure, I'm tired of seeing Red Death, Dawn Breaker, Drowned, etc, but I feel like this next stretch (time to the next dlc) is the long awaited final fight with dark robins, and we won't see them again (until omnibus lol).

    I also miss the 2 raids, 2 alerts, but it's not been that way for a bit, and I also can't say that the lack of having two alerts is a bad thing: I run 4 characters through the daily content, and it gets done in a very timely manner usually. Adding another alert would mean I have to spend roughly another hour daily on new content. Right now, I can get done, have time to hunt a feat or gear drop or something, and still be able to log off without feeling like I had to rush.

    2 raids though, resetting weekly, that I truly miss. But we have also had that happen variously: birds of prey, flashpoint. Perhaps the devs were just as anxious to finish this series as we were/are, and they didn't want to put "too much" for something many anticipated an end of.

    Personally, I like the looks/reskins of the environment, and some of the bosses, but I'm not "wow" at them. Perpetua was impressive as a character look. The fights, at the moment, subject to change obviously as we increase our CR and augments, are challenging on the level of needing to pay a bit more of attention to what is going on. I don't get that, "oh man, it's another tank-n-spank boss" feeling. I'm quite satisfied with the effects of the boss fights in this release! You got to stop dishing out damage at times, and actually do stuff, in order to complete. Yes, pugg'n it is gonna be rough, but I feel this is going to cause a little bit of "setting the players apart:" in that the people who don't "get it" (the mechanics of the fights) are either going to actually learn it now, or not even try, which means less issues for the seasoned characters. Not certain, but hopefully.

    I respect your opinion here, Proxy, and I hope you don't lose hope that the next dlc is going to be much better. I think we're in for a nice treat after this metal fiasco/completion lol.
    • Like x 3
  9. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    I HATE THE METAL STORY! I think it really ruined the main comics. I hate the story a lot. I don't like the fact that it is in this game, but gameplay wise, I don't agree with you on this DLC. I'm also happy this is the last of Metal. I don't blame it going this long, as the story started when SJ was still here and it needed to be finished. I'll say, story wise, it would have been better to release Doom and Dark Knights as one DLC, but other than that, it's not bad.
    • Like x 6
  10. Proxystar #Perception

    It's funny you say that and perhaps that's part of my problem as well, I hate the story so so so much it probably affects my enjoyment of any of it, They could delete this entire story arc from the DC Comics universe and I'd be happy lol, but I entirely appreciate that's utterly subjective.

    As I said I'm probably guilty of not highlighting any good things and there are some, I'd probably have to take more time if I were to properly articulate them and give it thought, but if there weren't good elements to the game I wouldn't still play every day, I don't say any of what I've said to discourage people from playing or giving this game a try, they absolutely should, but sometimes you do have to vent, right :D

    I think you've hit the nail on the head though in terms of just not liking the story though, cause if this were exactly the same content, but with different bosses I'd probably have had less issue :D
  11. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    Birds of Prey was connected to Dark Knights as well. That's when we discovered Lex Luthor travelled past the Source Wall and teamed up with Perpetua.
    • Like x 5
  12. Trexlight Devoted Player

    Honestly thanks for the list, it saves me time lol. We'll probably discuss it on stream this weekend but Im glad its the finale and even looking at the list, if it wasnt broken up like it was, we probably would either have burnout quicker, or enjoyed the ride better. Even with rehashed or returning bosses, doesnt phase me much. I think this format of Episodes in length was fun and good. 3 Episodes to tell the overarching story (HoP, AF, WotL) was good as well but could have been fleshed out more. This time, there could have been moments to combine to make it shortened lol Just gotta find that middle ground.

    Open World is always a place that needs to get better just with Missions and structure. Always love the environment but its the grind of doing the same thing and its structure. Its only engaging for a while until maybe the next Bounty. Think this needs a bit of overall.

    Im liking the story telling but the Open World should be where we get more of it and the Instances of course enhances that. The Blues/Greens giving more is okay but Im someone who plays muted most times and reads the subtitles (Subs>Dubs :p). With it being more Episodes, there should be more to say and that needs to be more involving with Open World.
    • Like x 3
  13. Proxystar #Perception

    Thanks, I'm not going anywhere and, I think BumblingB has probably expressed a pertinent point I inadvertently sympathize with where the story line itself is probably unfairly jading some of my views.

    That PVP stuff I said though too, that legit needs attention.
    • Like x 2
  14. PhilOsyfee Active Player

    Personally speaking this felt a bit rushed, even though it's been a while without and Episode. I just get the sense it came in hot and maybe another month would have allowed more polish and maybe some better incentives/rewards to smooth over the recycled bits.
    I enjoy aspects and designs from it, but overall I am a bit down (especially by Death Metal Batman ally not being there on launch).
    • Like x 2
  15. Proxystar #Perception

    Damn it, you made it worse lol :eek: I'd forgotten
    • Like x 1
  16. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    Tricked us all into thinking it was a Superman episode lol.
    • Like x 2
  17. FlawlessTime Dedicated Player

    I remember when metal PT 2 was out and I took a break and this dlc has me taking a break again because for me personally it feels just the same as the last the dailys etc. It's all good I need some time off from dcuo I'll come back when I feel I'm ready.
    • Like x 2
  18. EconoKnight XIII Legion

    With the variety of concepts and stories in DC Comics, it is a shame for DCUO to focus down on just one thing. I believe part of this is still the ghost of Dan Didio hanging around (which is even now lingering in the comics as Future State / 5G is still largely playing out even with Didio gone).

    I would like to see more of the great past stories get a day in the sun (like they did with Teen Titans: Judas Contract).

    Give us DC One Million (with our 853rd century cr being one million)

    Give us Armageddon 2001 (where it turns out a member of the raid group is the character who one day becomes Monarch)

    Give us Underworld Unleashed (with villains and heroes alike selling their souls to Neron for a power upgrade - which would be a good time to play with faction change / merge).

    Do a Watchmen episode without Watchmen! Use The Question! Captain Atom! Blue Beetle! Peacemaker!

    Maybe do a take on Identity Crisis where we find out part of our memory has been erased. As we try to solve the mystery of why, we play segments of a lost, past episode we never knew about (even downgrading our cr, styles, etc during those portions - I.e. no materials because they weren’t invented yet)

    On the original lore side, give us an Exobyte Chaos episode. Start the episode pointer quest with a raid for a change. Exobytes are killing Superman from the inside. The Atom shrinks us down, and we must destroy the exobytes (now bigger than us) while also fighting off Superman’s immune system. After we succeed, we return to normal size but unwittingly bring some exobyte fragments with us. They re-form in the normal size world and start to tear it apart.

    The episode then focuses on defeating the exobytes and finding out who was behind the original attempt to kill Superman (someone not Brainiac). And if we do have to re-hash, then maybe the exobytes hack Superman’s army of Superman robots - a raid where all of the adds are Superman blocking our way to the villainous mastermind

    There’s just so much potential that would even work well with limited resources. That said, I do appreciate the variety of characters and locations in the new episode; but the arena raid was pretty disappointing to me. I did enjoy seeing that Darkseid is part of the Source Wall, though. A subtle continuation of his story
    • Like x 5
  19. AGGUSTEN Well-Known Player

    Well, share the positive opinion of the other test and development forums in which I also gave my opinion and suggestions... It's a nice episode, it exceeded my expectations that it was normal, The most fabulous thing for me was the robot companion with his new powers like ours (it is something that touches us more closely, to our daily gameplay),
    I will also contribute my opinion of half a penny, I love open worlds, that's why I like that they keep us there more, ( I can understand the perspective that smaller world, better raid development and content, however since this is not possible due to the current difficulties, it is better to have one than to have none, that's what I think about it). I am a very visual person and I think the climate of the episode seemed right to me... and I will say something that perhaps many share, It is not that I like the night, that everything is dark and gloomy, in fact I hate that too! but that everything is in pure daylight, dry, and having to be like that for months (previous episode) is tedious and tiring, that environment and having to do the same thing always makes it impossible to maintain interest, I prefer the nuances, not everything be it night nor that everything be day! Nuances

    Lately I like them more and I focus more on the general changes that are implemented and that make everyday life changed in the game, like the robot companion, the new functions of the Bus, Allies, Circle of witchcraft improvements, further back, the implementation of the bus, etc. I love the episodes and look forward to more! much more and of better quality, but if I see these two different types of implementations together, for my episodes they become disposable, well, in fact I know that they must live for at least 4 months and then they stay forever, and the next one follows. .. by this I mean that these long-term changes improve much and they benefit us players more, in this case for me it was the best of this experience, and I know that it will be the most valuable over time, so I I think that, without neglecting to create new content, it was not difficult to respond to a request that was made years ago, especially but that improves our gameplay in the long term, It improves our gameplay in the long term, (I don't know how long it takes, so I can't really say) but for me doing things that affect the characters in the long term, it can become more satisfying than an episode, without underestimating it, so here's to for more changes like the robot companion with personalized powers and improvements, in powers and aesthetics, functions, etc.

    A very important and extremely crucial detail that you mentioned earlier that I am going to dig up
    This is so important, these last episodes, the time felt too much, it's too much to stabilize doing the same thing for months, I have a couple of ideas and solutions that can be improved and implemented.

    1) Offer different missions per provider as in the first episodes, I remember that in the episodes of grade 1 - 3 some characters gave you up to 5 different ones that changed as the player completed them, this is a great idea that can be taken up again, it is very feasible to implement, to maintain interest and lengthen the life of the episodes.
    2) Offer different missions per week, it is like the above, but it should not change once the previous mission is completed, if not, it must be done per week, at least 2 different pairs of the same character, it would already have an important change so that it does not becomes routine, it also makes exploit hunting more intriguing
    3) As in Century 31 and Wondeverso, they have rotating bosses but, instead of rotating by minutes, they do it every week, it would be the same mechanism but with a longer appearance time, it is not adding a new boss, nor stopping all the servers for that, Imagine in a month, in each week we enter a different Boss, this would maintain the interest, and would excite us all, in a month you have a week to defeat a certain boss... Also the feats that would be more valuable

    Helloo Blonde!, I think that the problem is not technically batman xd if you ask me, if the last episodes were about Batman, Ohs, it is true? xd For me, mentally, Batman is the normal Batman and that's it, the one who fights with the joker, the one who is in the League room in the Watchtower, the mentor, those other batman, I really can't internalize another one, the one who laughs he looks like the Joker (obviously I don't read comics, sorry) well I'll pick up the thread, I think of this as a metaphor, the episodes are like a bouquet of flowers, the biggest flower belongs to the main character, and the others flowers and little flowers are the other secondary characters that may be and will accompany the story, the truth is that sometimes the episodes seem more like a big and lonely flower, which must support all the content, and well, they say that if all the flowers are the same or very few, spring loses its charm, The last time I saw Batman with his people, Catwoman, Joker, Penguin, and the others, it was a long time ago old content... and it doesn't have to be his people, it could be secondary characters such as Green Arrow, Black Canary, Others of its size that accompany him, maybe we would not have sometimes, fights with 4 or 5 batman of different dimensions, xd ... if the truth is that the characters that must accompany, and have more relevance simply do not come out, or they put 2 or 3 just. so any spring becomes repetitive! is a recipe with the same result,
    • Like x 1
  20. Kuno Loyal Player

    I think the game is in mantenaince mode, its 12 years old. They keep adding cosmetic stuff and meaningless content, thats it.

    It's a pity that in 12 years they never expanded powersets abilities, or added new iconic powers to us, or new combos for weapons.
    I also thought many times, what are they doing? If most of the content is recycled this way.
    Truly a pity that the game never reached its full potential because now its too late to invest in it.
    Well at least, sidekicks and orbital skins are "cool".

    Im specially frustrated with the powersets topic, if they stopped doing new powersets, why not expand and create new cool higher tier habilities for the existing ones? Or even iconic powersets for the iconic trees? The iconic NPCs use those habilities so the VFX and the animations already exists. Its beyond my comprehed why they dont give us this toys to play, for real.

    Last powerset balance update they said they were setting the foundations for the future, well, that was years ago and we are still the same, waiting for some miracle.
    • Like x 3