Has anyone stop to think.....

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Ringz, Nov 22, 2016.

  1. Pults Loyal Player

    No, i'm not leaning towards P2W, players have still take part into the content if they want to reach the end-game, the capsule gear only allow to get closer to that goal by preventing the penalisation of CR differential.
    It actually does, not having a guaranteed reward means that the player paid for the chance to replay the content, wheres now they have the option to buy what they essentially had a chance of obtaining. You see when talking about topics like this you need to not ignore the loops that are involved in the process of it. The RB route was to unlock the raid, beat the boss, get a loot gamble, beat the third boss, get a loot gable, beat the third boss, get a loot gamble. "Players paid for getting the chance to play the content again" not "Playesr paid for getting a gamble at the gear". Where's now it's just about spending a couple million of in-game cash to buy the pieces off of the broker.
    Whilst it might seem as a similar concept, it's legally speaking it's not. So I still stand by what i said, this is the first time players get an option to skip progression and it is intended by the developers. Stating the developer part because in the first round when we got teleporters to instances you could go into them bellow the minimum CR which lead to some obtaining gear even outside of their tier.
  2. Superpatriot Dedicated Player

    Ringz, you and I both know replay badges were introduced back during Hand of Fate where top gear, aside from Norsemen, was on the vendor. People who can will spam replays to get end gear. Period.

    Also, I've never understood this "p2w" accusation in regards to all this. What exactly are you "winning"? Is there a special prize given to the person that gets top CR first? Are special awards given for top DPS in a raid? What do people "win" by spamming replays?
    • Like x 2
  3. bmce84 Loyal Player

    You misunderstand why we fought against the system, it wasn't because we thought it took forever, but because we know it was all geared towards replays, on a system made to reward your level and not stats the only thing that matters is having the highest gear at the risk of a fast progression system. We knew people would gear up fast but we made it clear you needed a lot of replay to do so, even more so Devs have actually put progression gear in the TC so they shot their own system in the foot with that. We suggested many ways to reduce the grind but still keep it, the issue that player solutions involved the compromise of devs losing replay cash, which they rather shut down the game first. But they pretty much killed the system on their own, hell I already have the Divine feat and can now work on OP gear simply based on TC gear (I had a lot of keys because within a month of the first TC broker was over saturated with collection and gear pieces so I didn't need to open boxes more than maybe one of two a week, and used my DBC to buy keys also).
    • Like x 1
  4. Tilz Loyal Player

    Normally I don't really agree with superpatriot and his opinoins (and he doesn't know me.. whatever). But he's right in my opinion.
    With paying replay, you get content faster. not p2w.. just faster.

    abotu the TC:
    you don't have to pay real cash to get the stuff. simple.
    • Like x 1
  5. Torikumu 10000 Post Club

    Whether or not you're paying for a chance at progression or an actual step towards progression is irrelevant. Either way, you're still paying for faster access to the best gear. Therefore, it's nothing new or something we haven't already seen for years.

    The difference now is that the system is fair to all players. The best gear is available to all players after X amount of runs, guaranteed 100%. It doesn't matter whether you're paying or not. Paying only results in the same reward, faster. Under the old system, there were absolutely no guarantees and someone who was spending money to have more opportunities at the best gear was in a better position than someone playing as intended.

    Under the old system, paying resulted in a significant, unachievable advantage which far better suits the definition of "pay to win" than the new system does. Thus making the new system less "Pay to win" than the old system.

    As for the Shim'Tar gear, you're preaching to the converted. I agree it is completely unnecessary and undermines progression. I don't like it and I don't want to see it happen again in the future. But this isn't what I was commenting on in my original reply to the original poster and I'm not here to debate in favour of the Shim'Tar gear.
    • Like x 2
  6. Pults Loyal Player

    Why is it irrelavent?
    The fact that there is a difference implies it's a new concept, which again, I pointed at earlier.
  7. Ringz Dedicated Player

    I apreciate the pov on this.
  8. Ringz Dedicated Player

    I read every sentence carefully. I understand replays have always been here. What I wanted to be the number one factor in my post was the longevity of this dlc it was proclaim to last. With the system back then, yea replays gave you another chance but it was for a gamble which not everyone even the people who payed for it can gear up in less than a week like those who are now. Now since its a gurantee, you are guaranteed to which endgame max cr the more you are willing to pay, which makes me concern with how that will kill the long time this dlc is suppose to last. Both systems are p2w options, but now it is clearly incline that if you pay you will reach max thus killing the aspect this dlc is suppose to bring.
  9. Torikumu 10000 Post Club

    I explained why in the pink text:

    "Either way, you're still paying for faster access to the best gear."

    Differences don't imply a new concept. That'd be like saying every new version of the iPhone is a new concept of the telephone. It isn't a new concept. It's the exact same concept, but made much fairer to the players.
    • Like x 1
  10. Pults Loyal Player

    I think that analogy doesn't go well with the topic.
    Lets make it simpler:
    a) Q + B = A
    b) R * P = A
    What I'm trying to explain is that the concept is different, them having the similar outcome doesn't mean they are similar processes.

    The model we have lets players skip playing to achieve what you'd normaly do to get the gear. Essentially paying for progression without playing, wether it be in-game money that has been devalued thanks to Time Capsules or RBs that are bought with DBC/Loyality points.
    Point is it doesn't help fill in raids/alerts, it devalues playing the game and it devalues progression. Content replaying only devalued progression.
  11. Torikumu 10000 Post Club

    If people wish to kill the game for themselves by spamming replay badges to obtain the best gear, then that's absolutely fine by me. It's not my problem that certain people don't have any self-control. They only have themselves to blame if they've got nothing left to chase.

    In every episode from episode 9 on wards, players have been hitting max CR within a week. In recent episodes, people have been hitting max CR within hours of it going live. The RNG approach did not do anything for longevity. It actually alienated a lot of people who felt like they couldn't beat the system to get the gear and it caused them to stop playing the game. This, in turn, fractured leagues and groups. I can't remember how many leagues I've seen crumble because the members just disappeared due to months of boredom and nothing to chase.

    Suggesting that the RNG approach to progression is less pay to win than the current system just doesn't make any sense. Progression is now guaranteed and after X amount of runs, you will have a full set of gear. Paying to replay the content now has absolutely no effect on your personal progression, only that you will gain access to the best gear faster.

    Under the RNG system, runs were self contained and paying to unlock raids under the RNG system gave you more opportunities at the best gear than can be achieved without paying any money. Thus meeting the definition of paying to gain a significant advantage over those who don't pay a lot more comfortably than the current system does.
    • Like x 2
  12. Ringz Dedicated Player

    Your're absolutely right. But the difference back then to now is how the fighting mechanics were back then. Its my fault for not making it a clear standpoint in my op, but the HoF was challenging for the system we had. So even if back then it was in best vendor, in order to get the currency you couldn't blow through the content like you can now. But you are right, replays have always been a source ever since it was introduce, but with the system we have now and replay system I'm more worried of this dlc longevity then the replay system.

    P2W doesn't have to be exactly winning, it can also mean giving an advantage. Such as being the top powers to complete content, or paying to reduce time of what you can normally get for running content regularly. But I also said I don't believe in the negative association that the word p2w comes with, because if done correctly it isn't a bad thing. Plus a f2p game, how else do you expect them to make money. Just with the way content is now, and how easily it is to get gear. Now if theres another word for it, I'll glady admit using the word p2w is wrong and switch it up. But with the wide term of what it means, reducing time to acquire a gurantee of something is p2w.

    But im not worried about the definition of it, Im looking at how long this dlc is gonna be alive with the rate people are going at it without any confirmation of when to expect the next dlc.
  13. Torikumu 10000 Post Club

    Yes, but this argument is supported entirely by the Shim'Tar gear. Which I've already stated several times that I agree was a massive mistake and again, it wasn't the point I was originally making. If you rewrote your entire post here, without referencing the Shim'Tar gear, you wouldn't have a valid argument about why the new system and it's monetisation is any different/worse/more pay to win from the old system.

    I was challenging the OP's opinion that he thinks this is the first time we've ever been able to pay to speed up acquisition of the best gear whilst attempting to support his opinion with pay to win rhetoric. It isn't the first time, nor is it the first time that it's been "pay to win". We've been paying to speed up progression for more than half the amount of time the game has been released, now. It's nothing new.

    The only difference between the two systems is that now, we are all guaranteed the same reward for the same amount of content completions no matter whether you're spending money or not, where as before no guarantees could be made. Those who actually spent money replaying raids were at a significant advantage over those who weren't spending money to replay thanks to the fact that replaying offered more opportunities at getting rewards from self-contained instances.
  14. Pults Loyal Player

    I don't get this. Some "debunk" the P2W aspect by simply saying "You don't win anything ;););)" and hence believe that they are in the right and everyone else is in the wrong but the reality is that there are a lot of blurred lines in all the topics brought up. Simply denouncing something for not being 100% accurate to its definition is not a sign of it not being at all.
  15. Pults Loyal Player

    It seems like you're missing my points and I'm missing yours, so I'm going to end my posting in this thread.
    I doubt any of the discussions will have an impact concidering we're already far too deep into this rabbit hole.
    • Like x 1
  16. Ringz Dedicated Player

    Then at this point we have a different mindset of how we like for the replay system to work. I'll start off by saying that what I said about "first time introducing p2w option", I was wrong. As reminded by others in here, p2w has always been in the game, as i even stated I don't see p2w options being a bad thing depending of the circumstance of the games. However

    I have no idea what episode 9 is, but fars i remember thats after OC and before monthly content, then onward like you said. In the recent episodes yea RNG was either your bestfriend or nightmare when it happen, but people/leagues also left because the quality and quantity of content dropped, plus the game direction and lack of communication from devs. Rng itself did not turn people away. Not only that but only 4 pieces were released, so that cut time in half of what you needed to get, plus modding not being useful anymore. Correct me if im wrong, but this is the same time when CR is king, became a thing.

    Again im not looking at the p2w aspect, but the content itself. If the instances were more challenging then maybe I'd be thinking different, but till change happens we have what we have. Players playing dcuo might settle for less or rather fact enjoy this dlc ALOT. But I seen what dcuo can offer at its highest potential, and with us returning to quarterly, they'll have to step it up than they did from monthly content. This to me is a good start, but can easily skew to the wrong direction AGAIN, if someone doesn't say something.
  17. Ringz Dedicated Player

    Either way its fine by me. I didn't start this just to debate but to see what people think also so I can have more pov. Someone have to say something, rather if they're agreed with or corrected. Devs gotta look at something meaningful once in awhile.
  18. Torikumu 10000 Post Club

    Yep it was War of the Light Part 1, which saw Level 90 gear dropping and in the vendor.

    Back when episodes were quarterly, people were playing for about a month, on average, and quickly acquired the top CR through a combination of vendor and dropped gear (if not a pure vendor build). After that, people realised that the only way they could progress was by running the raids once per week for a chance at progression. By months 2 and 3, many people had cancelled their subs and left. Some permanently, some came back for the next episode.

    Because the developers never looked at progression when they shifted to monthly episodes, the exact same problems were occurring on a smaller scale. Content lasted about a week and for the next 3 weeks, the game was a bore/empty. I once wrote that "if you take a log of **** and cut it into 3 smaller pieces, you've still got ****", which I feel is basically the best way to describe the way quarterly and monthly content was handled. Fortunately, with monthly content, new content and new rewards were coming out in line with subscription duration. Only towards the end of the monthly content experiment did that start to break apart. For most of it's run, though, you got new content and rewards before your membership had chance to expire.

    I do definitely agree with your point about content difficulty, though. Now that progression has been resolved and is much better for everyone, the next issue is actually giving the game some substance and integrity. I want longer raids with more bosses that tell deeper stories.

    Unfortunately, I don't think the wider community agrees.

    I feel that this type of content is essential to building up that loyal, end game player base but like I say, I don't think the majority want it. In addition to the community not wanting it, long, difficult content isn't friendly towards replay badge utilisation. This means that if all content is long and difficult, replay badges become less attractive to use and that means the developers make less money from replay badges. A community that doesn't want long, challenging content and a dev team who'd most likely see a reduction in replay badge usage in long, challenging content is basically the death of that idea.

    The only way I can see the developers giving us that type of challenging content is if they remove progression from it entirely. If there's no progression attached to it, then there's no pressure for the developers to make it easy for us. So far, the only content that isn't attached to progression and is considerably tough is Survival Mode. They haven't given us a new one of those for a few years now. So I very much doubt they'll be able to do this either. Certainly not to the quality of the AF3 raids, at least.

    But here's hoping!
    • Like x 1
  19. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    You don't have to be max CR for the elite raids. Everything in this DLC is not reading CR correctly and makes it seem easy.
  20. Black Prime OG Devoted Player

    It should have worked like the last gear set. Strong, but not as strong as raid or vendor gear. Maybe 1 CR above blue, but not equal to purple. Either way it doesn't matter. This was thrown at us so they can work on statsmatter. Beat both raids first night. Both runs took maybe 20min, and that's because we kept looking for the investigations. The duo and alert are a joke.

    I know the price of the vendor gear is high but without reseting anything I already have the feet and mask. It won't take that long.
    • Like x 1